Anon is worried about men

I assume years of collectively crying about it online has made something as simple and natural like dating seem like this unachievable task.
Not sure if it’s just me, but I feel like young people are less capable than ever to socialise. I thought I was a social pariah, but I don’t have shit on some people out there.
- I think a big part of it is online dating is just how it's done these days.
  But yes, we've done a great job of over-complicating something as simple as human interaction.
  
  I think so too. Online dating is just too convenient. It’s easier to arrange a date while playing video games than going into a club or other places you don’t like to begin with. I won’t lament those places dying out. Fuck them, never felt comfortable there.
  But online dating should have made things easier not worse. Then again those sites aren’t free of blame too.
- I was a complete social reject in middle and high school so I don't even know how to people but I just assumed that was just me and my miserable circumstances apparently a lot of people have the same problem?
  
  Same, I struggle with people. I think it's just that our kind of people are more active online.
- There's no third places where you can just loiter.
- From what I've seen/heard, it's not specifically the 'crying.' It's a general effect from online life. Online activities are much, much easier than in person. Want to feel a connection to someone? Here's vloggers, talking straight at you in painfully earnest tones about everything in their life. Want someone to entertain you? Here's half a dozen companies fighting to be the one you turn to. Hungry? Forget cooking. Here's delivery options from everywhere. Horny? Porn! It's all a click away and you don't even need to put on pants. If getting a need met enough to get you to tomorrow takes no effort, many people aren't going to put in the work to get, not even a guarantee, but only a chance at something better.

Well when men keep hearing “don’t approach us”, we shouldn’t be shocked when men don’t approach people.
- Step 1- be attractive.
  
  Step 2 - don't be unattractive.
  
  Just be funny and not a piece of shit. My wife is so gorgeous, people immediately know I have a good sense of humor and I’m supportive. I’m certainly not rich.
  Granted, this is not a good approach for the apps. You need to be able to sell yourself in person. Best dating strategy in this case is making many friends, and some of them will be charmed into attraction. If I were dating, speed dating would probably be workable for this approach.
  
  Step 1. Be courteous
  Step 2. Interact with people in general
  Step 3. Ask our the people you're genuinely interested in, and feel you have some kind of connection with, respectfully, knowing rejection is okay
  Repeat until you get a date.
  Being attractive helps a lot. Obviously. But you can put effort into your appearance. More than anything your personality is the thing that will get you a date.
  Having tried Tinder 12 years ago, once, around the time I became an adult, why you'd choose it over asking people out in real life is beyond me. Especially if you're not very attractive.
  The meta is all off haha
  
  If there is one thing the internet has overwhelmingly seceded at it's convincing people that looks are absolutely everything. A lot of people I know tend to take their dating app experience as solid evidence of their romantic inaptitude. Even when it's all too well known they are scams designed to keep you on their platform for as long as possible.
  I know that preaching about stepping up to women may feel like the same way as saying: "Just be attractive, bro." And if it does, to that I say: Do it and practise it for the sake of it. "That looks like a nice person, let's find out what they're about, for no damn reason at all."
  Anyway, my two cents. And if it helps whenever you're scared of striking up a conversation just keep in mind: "The alternative is dating apps."
- At the same time, lots of men are really shitty when they "approach" women.
  "Don't approach us" is a response to men's behaviour, not the other way around.
  
  So yeah don't approach women, got it.
- Cry me a river. I've never heard a women say "don't approach me", but I've heard many say "don't be a douche" and "stop thinking you're a fucking victim".
  
  You already forgot the bear in the woods?

I keep saying this cause it's a take a lot of people gloss over. I haven't dated in a while because I'm too broke to add anything else to my budget, dive bars included. Dating takes time and money, and if I get more of either, I'm using it to better my situation before thinking about dating.
In a time where real wealth is dwindling for most young men, I can imagine I'm not alone on this.
- Going through the same problem, I was in uni during COVID, when it hit many things in my life changed or left so I shut down and unfortunately couldn't complete my degree in the end. Now I'm just job hunting and rebuilding and while I do feel pretty lonely at times, I realise I can't even consider talking to a girl romantically until I can rebuild myself (my own choice). Luckily I have this close female friend who i can talk to makes me feel a little less alone
- Life advice from an old'ish dude: find a girl when you are broke. She will always love you, not the money. She will also love you in hardship and she won't care if you go for a walk or watch Netflix because it's cheaper. :)

Every time I see an article like this I think who fucking cares? Like what's going on with men? Its a generational and cultural thing its not men's fault. Dating sucks, people get rejected in ultra harsh ways, sometimes being filmed and then posted on social media for trying to ask someone out. If I was in the age range to be dating I wouldn't bother.
- It's a problem to have so many single, disaffected men out there
  
  Might be a good time to downplay the importance of a relationship for a happy life then instead of trying to push the message that your life sucks if you don't have one.
  
  Yup and it’s a problem that only becomes worse over time
  
  The first rule of…
  
  how do you know they are disaffected. Maybe they are single and just fine with it.
- Women might care?
  
  Then perhaps we should expect changes/shifts in women's behavior to bridge the gap?
  I don't think that cultural evolution is happening - look at Bumble, which had its premise/differentiation with women making the "first move." They eventually had to nix the feature, because...women didn't want to make the first move; they wanted to be pursued. Meanwhile, apps in general are just a minefield of emotional rejection, while Corporate ownership drags men through the muck as long as possible to get those $$$. So most men simply stop using apps and simply wait for some kind of IRL meet-cute. And that sparingly happens in a society that has very, very few places for non-commercial social overlap.
  
  well then they should step up and start asking people out instead of waiting for guys to do it.
  
  Then they get to step up and approach men for a change.
- people get rejected in ultra harsh ways, sometimes being filmed and then posted on social media for trying to ask someone out.
  Are you sure this isn't exaggerating it a little? This may be anecdotal but I have never dealt with any such harsh rejection within my social circles (neither have my associates). What I'm trying to get at is that there may be a vocal minority that gets a lot of online attention.
  Then again if thousands upon thousands of people see such a post (like on say r/Tinder) and take it as a common phenomenon it would still have the same effect.
  
  Really the fear of it happening is enough. All you have to do is have it happen once, or know someone that it happened to, or see a video of it for that to scare you off of even trying.

Honestly, I get it's a green text, but this is pretty easily explained. First off: dating is fucking expensive, and unfortunately standard gender roles means the dude foots the bill most of the time. Yes times are changing, but that's still pretty standard. Pair that with the fact that dudes usually have to make the first move (again, old gender standards) and the fact that social media adds another layer of risk of being ridiculed or making someone viral because they were 'crimge' or 'gave the girl the ick' and it's a pretty stacked deck. Hell, point one is such a strong weigh in that it's enough to explain all of it. People are more broke than ever, and if dating by default involves going out, well guess that date isn't going to happen.
- I recently ended a 6 year relationship. I'm not going to settle down with anyone again unless they have their own stuff going on like a career and goals. I think a lot of women expect men to manage all the finances, set goals, plan vacations and provide stability but they don't want to do the traditional gender role stuff like cooking and cleaning or making a home. So what's the point? Why make someone else's life easier if they don't do the same for you? had a son young(I was 19 when I had him) and he's 11 now, so it's not like I'm dreaming of starting a family. Most women bring nothing to the table. And if you're lucky enough like me to have a good income, house, car, etc... you realize a lot of things are easier living alone.
  Women want the princess treatment but don't know how to act like a princess. Beyond that, sex isn't all it's hyped up to be. I know I sound like a redpill incel but dating shouldn't be a priority for anyone. What's the rush? Don't fall for the first thing you see, make sure they're worth it first.
  
  If you decide to date again, you should consider dating liberal women. The only women I have known who are like you describe are conservative(and I have met one or two who expect the princess treatment and then don't deliver on the prince treatment!). I know conservative men who expect traditional roles, and I know conservative men who expect to split the bills and say they'll split the housework but then the woman ends up doing all the housework anyway. The women in that situation end up feeling like you: if I'm doing the housework AND working, this is easier on my own!
  In my liberal circles things seem to be a bit more evenly split, and both partners are often more independent.
  It seems like you're happy on your own though, so you're doing the right thing by removing yourself from the dating pool! Maybe you'll find someone independent who will be a good match naturally, but I can't imagine a woman would want to work and split the housework with someone who has your attitude ("most women are bad and not worth having around") so you might need to change that if you do decide to get back into dating. I can't connect on what you mean on sex not being the best thing in the world and the literal purpose of life, but I do know my husband felt like you on that front before he met me. He thought people were just exaggerating on how good it is. Maybe, like him, you just haven't met the right match there either? It's not like I'm even that good in bed, if anything I'm a bit of a selfish lover. It's just that we're a good fit together. Good luck, man. I hope you find the right fit and realize men and women are equally selfish and equally selfless.
  
  What’s the rush?
  I would guess the rush is that you would have someone to split your crippling living expenses with.
  
  I get there's a bit of biterness here, but speaking as an older millennial this was my experience as well. Feminism created a weird gap of women becoming strong and independent, but with some meant 'im not going to do traditional fem, but expect you to do traditional man' with no compromise. I ended up finding a wonderful woman and we both split everything, but it took me 20 years.
  
  Re: “sex isn’t all it’s hyped up to be.” Sex with someone you love is the best thing.
- Agreed. Cost of living and wealth inequality are getting so bad it's breaking society. We see it everywhere and it's weird to prioritize non economic explanations.
  Although hetero dating is just total bs, speaking as a queer gal. All that old cruft is rotten and it's gotta go
  
  Yet again Capitalism is the issue
  Is there any problem that wouldn't be fixed with wealth redistribution?
- I went out on a first date with this woman recently and we just split the bill 50/50. It was a refreshing change of scenery. I think that should be standard so that nobody has any expectations on either side. As time goes on you can figure out how to allocate cash flow but first dates should never be 100% on one gender, unless one of them are rich (in my opinion at least.)
- First off: dating is fucking expensive, and unfortunately standard gender roles means the dude foots the bill most of the time.
  Not an excuse for most Lemmy users. Most American Lemmy users make far more than the average American. I have seen Lemmy users legit bitch that they only make $80K a year. That's more than I ever made a year in my entire working life. And I never had a problem dating.
  It's a personality issue, not a money issue.
  
  I'm doing my part in dragging down the average, but tech salaries are quite good

Men don’t want to be branded ‘creepy’ and women have constantly stated they want to be left alone. Men listened.

45% of men 18 to 25 have never asked out a woman in person
I can't speak for the whole 45% but some of us have heard stories from women about how that other 55% can behave. I think I'd rather wait for a lady to (never) ask me out then put someone in the position of thinking "Oh, is he gonna take it bad if I say no?"
- Also, some of us are gay.
- You've drank too much ideological koolaid. People aren't what you read in the news or a great deal of the internet.
  It's actually really easy to get a date in person if you are not a total ogre and treat women like normal people.
  Weirdo white knights can easily end up as incels. Neither of those groups tend to do very well in actual social situations.
  
  It's really easy?
  
  Exactly right! Great post!
- This is it. I feel like I am inflicting myself on women. That I am a problem for them simply for existing. Why would I do something like that to someone if its as bad as we are always being told?
  
  You're not a burden.
  
  This is it. I feel like I am inflicting myself on women. That I am a problem for them simply for existing.
  And that attitude and thought process is exactly why you would have a hard time dating. Don't think like that, friend.
- Bachelor pride vibes.
- The only stories of women with bad experiences I know of weren't about having to tell somebody 'No'. They were about having repeatedly say 'No' again and again to the same person. If you ask a woman out and take a 'No' gracefully, you are not a bad experience for anybody except you experiencing rejection of course. The hypothetic situation where she considers wether you may take it bad is more about a broader social phenomenon but not about you in that moment. The moment you are like 'Okay, that's sad, but I understand' and go your way, everything will be fine.
  You should think about some preconditions about asking her out like not doing it while blocking the only exit or while she's at work but I guess that counts as "Making a good first impression" anyways regardless of gender.
- Get out and ask some people. Plenty of women like it as long as you're polite
  
  Until you approach another wrong one and you get another lecture for saying hi
  This shit is actually happening
  
  "Polite" implies that if you're agreeable and friendly women will understand that you're interested in them and not just being agreeable and friendly.
  I think part of the problem is that what we're all really after is fucking, which isn't polite at all. Being polite about it just makes you look weak and ineffective at the thing that we all say we want but can't mention.
  If any mention of sex by a man is considered inappropriate, how is a man supposed to negotiate sex?
  This is a big reason why I'm engaged: We got the impolite part out of the way first.

It's a complicated issue with a lot of layers. Like a depressing onion.
Men were told to stop approaching women for any reason in any situation. So we did.
Dating apps and websites have overinflated women's egos and absolutely obliterated most mens egos. The average looking guy with a job and some normal hobbies is going to get very few matches where as most women get hundreds a day regardless of their level of employment or having hobbies. This leads to women believing they can find the millionaire bachelor if they just hold out for longer when in reality they are not the women that the millionaire bachelor is going to pick.
Most women still expect men to be chivalrous and pay on the first date, but they have no actual intention of pursuing a relationship with that guy. Unfortunately some women have learned they can get a free meal and entertainment for an evening at no cost if they just say yes to dates they have no interest in. Most guys have been burned by that as some point.
A lot of women are still playing games. Saying no because they want the man to "chase" them or "fight" for them. Most guys have stopped entertaining that behavior whatsoever but I still see so many women doing it. As men we can't tell if that's what you want or if you actually mean it when you say no so the majority of us will immediately stop pursuing you if you decline us. I'm 33 and women are STILL doing this. I thought it would taper off as I got farther from high school aged girls but from my experience it has not gone down in any significant way.
There are a million other reasons and nuanced details but I am tired of typing.
Myself and most men I know around my age who all did very well in the dating scene when we were younger have just completely given up on dating now. We have zero interest in putting in the time, energy and money into something that yeilds nothing in return these days.
Like most things I think this will reach a breaking point and things will shift but I'm not sure when that will be or what will push things over the edge.
- My aunt admitted she did the free meal thing back in the 70s. It's not new. This whole thing is bs. People just have whiny echo chambers now.
  
  I'm gay but I've only ever been on dates where both of us paid for our own meals. I think hetero dating is just broken and they should start over
  
  I never said it was a new shitty behavior from women. It's just that more men are aware of it now. Especially since a lot of women will post about it online and while they do get to share it with their yaaas queen slay fan base men do also see those posts. They see those comments where women are bragging about how many dates they have gone on with zero intention of actually romantically engaging with the man at any point.
  And to be clear I am not sitting here thinking this is a one way street. I am fully aware that men have a long history of going on dates just to get laid and then never talking to that woman again.
  Both genders got shit they need to work on just like most people got shit they need to work on.
- Same here. Most women bring nothing to the table, so there's no rush. I'd rather save the money and spend my time studying or playing video games
  
  I definitely wouldn't say they bring nothing to the table. It's just that they expect you to bring a lot to the table and often times they bring little to the table. If they also didn't expect you to bring much then it wouldn't be so bad, but they expect it all while doing little to nothing in return.
  
  If you don’t like women, then date men. You are telling us you can’t connect to women, then you aren’t attracted to them. If you were you would connect emotionally with them. You’re probably just straight because you were told to be for so long and you made it an identity. Open your mind and think about those male friends you had you made excuses to wrestle with a little bit more just so you could feel his touch. Just give in to what you know to be true.
- One of my friends straight up used a guy to help her move and ditched him immediately after. It's honestly so fucked up what otherwise very nice women think is totally fine to do. She bragged about doing this and my other friends cheered her on for it. I couldn't even imagine being the guy in that situation, just getting treated like an exploitable slave?
  
  This is unfortunately a very common thing that women pull. I have a lot of "handy" skills and I have had multiple women pretend to be interested in the hopes that I would fix something in their apartment for them.
  I cannot fathom pretending to be interested in someone just to use them like that. It's really quiet dehumanizing and then for so many people to cheer that behavior on is disgusting. Not really a mystery people aren't lining up to go on dates these days.
- Summary: hoe_math
  Right?
  
  His videos are hilarious. Mostly accurate too.
- You're complaints sound like they were copy and pasted from an Andrew Tate manuscript. Most men I know who are healthy and well adjusted have a girlfriend or wife. I dont think ive dated a woman in the last 5 years who expected me to be chivalrous or wanted to "play games" with me and make me chase. My friends and I have been having amazing luck with dating recently I guess. 8 out of 9 of us are either married or in a long term relationship. And were not rich or extremely attractive lmfao. Maybe it's because none of us are incels and don't just wanna fuck the first thing with 2 legs to say yes. I feel like men like you can't see anything a woman is past the vagina, like maybe if you tried to just be friendly instead of horny they would've opened up to you and trusted you. Instead most men act like women owe them something when they buy them a gift or a meal. My friends have paid for my food before and I didn't get on the ground and suck them off, why should a girl be expected to do that.
  
  First of all: *Your
  Secondly: Yikes bro. You made a LOT of assumptions and pretty much all of them were wrong.
  I don't really give a shit about sex. At least that's not my goal when dating. I am looking for someone that is kind, thoughtful and curious. Someone who is intellectually stimulating and emotionally mature.
  I could call up pretty much any of my exes and get sex if that's all I was after. I am just looking for genuine human connection.
  When my choices are expend time, energy and money just to be taken advantage of/toyed with or sit at home and be at peace with myself I'm gonna take the peace every time now.
  If you went fishing for years and never caught anything except toxic sludge at some point you just stop fishing. Spend that time and energy on something else. That's where most men are at these days. And yeah some of those guys are just unrealistic assholes, but most of them really aren't.
  Personally I am just living my life. If I happen to bump into someone and hit it off I won't fight it, but I'm not going to actively spend my time, money and energy looking anymore.
  
  Let me start by saying I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the post you're replying to.
  8 out of 9 of us are either married or in a long term relationship.
  How long? Because many of the points being made by the comments in this thread are talking about how things changed in the past few years. If you got together pre pandemic you wouldn't have been dating in the environment many are talking about. Even if you got together in like 2021 you may not have experienced it at it's worst (according to them).
  Disclaimer: I am married and haven't ever experienced the "dating scene" because I'm with my high school sweetheart. But you need to understand a lot of what the posts in this thread are talking about they're claiming is very recent.
  That said, this post (the image) is 100% incel propaganda, accidental if I'm being generous.
- What stinks like shit? Oh it’s your personality.
  
  Interesting response. I take it you must be one of those women I was referring to in part of my comment somewhere.
  
  Says an asshat

18-25 in 2025 means 13-20 when COVID happened.
We're going to see the long term effects of people in that micro generation losing much of what the high school social scene represented, that low stakes junior league of forming new relationships, where meeting is easy, with lots of natural opportunities for free interaction, and making new connections is normal. Learning to flirt in that environment is a stepping stone towards being able to navigate the adult world, where people don't have your schedule planned out for you, and you won't naturally see the same people 100+ days out of the year, and have 50+ chances to shoot your shot when you're ready.
And yes, sure, the loss of third places and changing social dynamics and gender roles and the economy play a role, too, for pretty much everyone under 40. But it's worth pointing out that this specific age cohort has special challenges on top of the issues that everyone else is living, too.
- That first sentence hit me like a truck
  
  Surely this feeling is due to some kind of chronoton radiation.
- I was a total social reject in high school because I was a queer girl in a Nazi shithole and I don't know if I'll ever recover. Although the social disruption only lasted for 2 years due to COVID so there could be differences between people who were freshmen vs juniors. Worth studying
- Ah so the rest of the boys had the same experience I had going to an all boys school then, misery loves company I guess
- there also could end up being echos of the disturbance for years to come as the traditions that would have been spread by upperclassmen died out.

Social changes have caused chaos. A lot of the "traditional" dating methods existed to give structure to finding a partner. Unfortunately, those structures got trashed by the general update to gender roles. While these changes are great in many ways, it left young people in limbo. It was eventually replaced with online dating, for many. Unfortunately, that, in turn has been trashed by corporate takeover.
You've also got the outlier problem. The problematic men and women make up a small proportion of the population, but do a disproportionate amount of dating. A lot of the complaints are aimed at the problematic groups. Unfortunately, they don't care. It's mostly the non-problematic people who get the wrong message.
- I think the effect of other societal changes not immediately associated with relationships might be underestimated here too, such as the commercialization of any and all free time activities where one might casually meet people of the preferred gender on a regular basis combined with the limited disposable income. Or (in the US at least) the elimination of sidewalks and other public places where one might encounter people from your own neighborhood outside of a car. More customized media consumption leading to fewer guaranteed shared topics to discuss compared to the time when generally everyone watched the same things on TV and read the same news at a similar time. I could probably come up with other examples but the point is that a lot of things changed that make just meeting people to consider to ask out much more difficult than it used to be a few decades ago.
  
  I fully agree. A lot of entertainment options have moved from self organising to a fire hose model. It used to be you just gave youngsters a place to go, and let them work out what to do with it. Now it's hyper-commercialised. Everyone sits/stands there and absorbs entertainment from a central source.
  It's also not just young adults and teenagers. Pre teens and early teens have nowhere to really interact organically. Without that solid foundation of peer socialising, they are trying to build on soft sand.
- Change is not chaos. Tone it down. It’s just an adjustment to changing status quo.

This thread is an example of why men aren’t dating.
“I’ve had painful lived experiences and faced unbalanced and unfair expectations, so I’ve decided dating isn’t worth my time right now”
“You’re an incel”
It doesn’t really matter what you say, it’s the fact that you said it as a man that will garner disrespect from some regardless.

I'm married to a tinder girl now so say what you want about that but for me, it was fear of further social ostracization. I always struggled to fit in, in grade school because I was asian in a sea of white kids. Some kids were literally afraid to touch the "chinese boy" (i was korean but try telling that to rabid white elementary and middle school kids looking for any reason to other anyone). I became a huge people pleaser and tried not to stick out for any reason. I had also seen how the "popular" kids treated any of the geeks who tried to shoot their shot and I didn't want to fuck up any of the social capital I thought I had. It obviously got better in late high school as kids grew up but the damage was done. I had a few girlfriends in high school and college but they mostly came after me or we kind of just found ourselves getting close so there wasn't any formal "asking out" type of stuff. Either way I probably blew a lot of romantic opportunities but it is what it is.
I got a boy due in June so hopefully I can instill the confidence in him that I didn't have.
- tinder girl
  You mean you met her on tinder. What makes her a tinder girl and not you a tinder girl?
  Edit meant boy
  
  Obviously he means she is dry and flammable, thus is great for starting fires.
  
  His cock
  
  We are commonly referred to as tinder folk
  
  Unless the person you respond to is trans the fact that they describe themselves as being referred to as a "chinese boy" would suggest that they are likely not a girl.

Is Anon talking out their ass with those stats, or is this actually true?
- Theres definitely a truth to it, younger people are drinking less and less every generation, which takes its toll on bars and to some extent clubs too.
  
  Isn’t it also because going out nowadays is expensive as hell especially if you live in a big city. Young people working part time aren’t going to waste one month’s salary on one night out. And just hanging outside in public sharing a beer will make a nosy boomer call the cops on you for loitering. So the younger generations have learned how to have fun at home without booze.
  
  Drinking less is probably good. I doubt that automatically leads to less dating.
  
  we need cannabis lounges
- Fuck, and I was just reading Homelessness Is A Housing Problem, and they were talking all about stats and to not buy into intuitive narratives, and low and behold, I have bought into this without looking it up. Guess I should get onto that now.
  (And by reading the book, I mean I use a GlaDOS voice pack from Hugginface using SherpaTTS. What a vibe.)
  
  wait what, you can get a GlaDOS voice pack for TTS engines? damn. i guess there goes my afternoon. thanks for the hint 😁
- Here's the study https://datepsychology.com/risk-aversion-and-dating/
  
  Well, that's depressing. Although I understand why, if you're not socially confident, approaching a woman romantically can feel terrifying.
  I do find it interesting that most young women do want to be approached more, I wasn't expecting that.
  I also note the study is silent on how many women have approached a man, and I don't think they even asked the question.

reading this thread I'm glad I'm a removed in a relationship. my spouse is the best. i got so fucking lucky.
there's a massive epidemic of loneliness out there. the loss of the free/cheap third spaces, lockdowns, and social media have made a fucking shitstorm. I'm scared for the generations below me just starting to enter the workforce. so many kids just unable to function properly.
i can't solve it. but I've been putting my devices down more and (trying) to get out more. get more sunlight and fresh air, even if i just sit outside and watch the ducks. it's hard out there. give yourself a break, okay? eat a snack and take a walk.

So many comments echoing "women told us to stop approaching us, so we did!"
I mean no offense, truly, but you missed the point if that's the message you took. It wasn't "Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman" it was, "if you shoot your shot and she's not interested, move on and don't make it weird. If she is at work, be very careful as customer service does not equal flirting." Yes, there are some grey areas (not sure even the best gentleman could slide up to a woman alone in a parking lot and not freak her out), but some of you are kicking up the board without even moving a piece. Stop pushing the narrative that only attractive men can speak to women. Not only are you assuming you're not attractive by saying that (which cannot be good for your confidence) , you're reducing women's feelings and concerns as being blindly shallow and unwarranted.
The world is not full of only beautiful people, yet people still live and love. Not to dismiss the difficulties (as an uggo myself, I get it), but you can get out there, I know you can.
- It wasn't "Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman"
  Actually, as explained to me by a woman, it was exactly that.
  This was well after I had married, somewhere in my fifth decade, so I was off that particular playing field for quite some time by that point. But on a lark I had asked a feminist what this “leave women alone” refrain meant. And some of it made perfect sense: don’t hit up cashiers or anyone doing their jobs, they’re just being nice and friendly because they are being paid to be polite.
  But it also meant don’t approach women when they’re shopping for groceries, as they’re probably tired from work and just want to go home. Don’t approach women on public transportation, as they’re just trying to get home and don’t want to be accosted in a cramped public venue. Don’t approach women when they’re out with friends, because they are with friends and don’t want to be cleaved off like how a predator isolates a member of a herd.
  This went on and on, to some pretty ridiculous lengths. Whereupon I asked, “how is any man supposed to do an unsolicited approach to chat up a woman?”, to which she said - and no, not kidding at all - “They shouldn’t. Any man who we’re interested in will understand when we’re interested in them.”
  Like… telepathy.
  Literal
  fking
  telepathy.
  Sure as shit, this is what a woman said to me.
  Most men get absolutely zero life experience in decoding super-subtle hints, and now they’re supposed to miraculously become an expert in navigating a potentially life-destroying minefield, where the only two outcomes is magically getting it right, or risking a non-trivial probability of incarceration and a criminal record when they (invariably) get it wrong?
  No wonder so many men are saying “thanks, but no thanks.” That the juice - the outcome - is just no longer worth the squeeze - all the effort and risk that is shouldered. I don’t blame them in the least. They’re the smart ones.
  And those who are slightly less smart are at least asking the $10,000 question: why aren’t women making the first approach? I mean, isn’t that what this whole “equality of the sexes” shtick was all about? Why don’t women put their money where their mouths are, and ask MEN out, for a change? Because I can guarantee that while any normal woman will experience a certain level of rejection, it will still be several orders of magnitude less than what a similarly-normal man experiences.
  
  I have a feeling this is a very american thing. Random encounters with the other sex were the norm in Germany (at least before tinder and the likes, no idea how it's nowadays). Being confident got you a long way. Not always, mind you. But often enough. Most women actually like being spoken to, as long as it's a friendly encounter. I believe it might be different in America because everyone there is trying to one up each other (often resulting in loud and annoying behavior). I wouldn't want to be chatted up by the cliche american guy either.
  
  I was with you (to a degree)until:
  they’re supposed to miraculously become an expert in navigating a potentially life-destroying minefield, where the only two outcomes is magically getting it right, or risking a non-trivial probability of incarceration and a criminal record when they (invariably) get it wrong?
  This is some nonsense. The worst the man will get (barring some VERY unacceptable behavior on his part) is yelled at by an angry (and probably shitty, if all the man did was politely approach at even a remotely reasonable time) woman. Which, turns out, is something women deal with from shitty men fairly regularly. It turns out, when you are interacting with strangers out in public, there is a small chance you are going to interact with an asshole. That doesn't mean you should be a hermit, that means you met an asshole. And if everyone you meet is an asshole... you're probably the asshole.
  But nobody is going to jail or having life-shattering consequences for saying hello to a woman they don't know.
  THAT BEING SAID, if we, as men, are regularly told that approaching a woman in public is uncomfortable, unpleasant, or downright scary for women, decent men won't want to approach women in order to avoid making them uncomfortable.
  My personal experience has been to the contrary, and have struck up conversations with a number of women I didn't know in public, and never had a particularly bad experience. Maybe I am generally non-threatening, or maybe I have better social skills than some, but if all a person who rarely interacts with women hears is that initiating any sort of contact is unpleasant to the woman they talk to, I can't imagine they'd be inclined to strike up a conversation. And if they do make women uncomfortable (due to poor social skills from... not regularly interacting with women), it only reinforces that belief.
  What's the answer? I don't know. But it feels like making men who care about the feelings of women uncomfortable with approaching them does nothing but leave the ones who don't care. I think the message needs to change.
  
  I would honestly say your friend misunderstood the message as well if that was her takeaway.
  
  sure thing, incel
- Why does it have to be men doing the asking? Maybe it's the 'tism talking but I tend to be very onboard for the whole equity and equality stuff especially in a relationship. I have never understood why people feel so strongly about gendered roles or activities. Despite being functional in pretty much all traditionally gendered skills (in both directions), I haven't really ever encountered someone that takes it as seriously.
  Of the women I have dated that have been the most vocal about equity and DEI when I point out that they tend to all back to traditional gender roles when it's to their advantage they have all essentially ended up saying that it is just their personal preference. Well no shit. I'm sure there are plenty of men who would prefer to be able to have all of the housework done by their partner, or billionaires that don't want to give up any of their money even if they talk about wealth inequality. Just because it's a preference doesn't mean it's OK.
  
  Men don't have to be the ones asking, but I was responding to the idea that men can't approach women by default. Either gender can shoot their shot.
  And those women can have a preference for a more "traditional" role, it just means they need to be aware that not every guy they meet is going to be cool with that and that may mean making a choice down the line. The idea is that two people are in a relationship that works for them and everyone is safe and respected. So, yes, it's okay for people to have that preference. The issue is forcing your preference to be the standard.
- There are definitely a few (almost certainly a vocal minority) women who do say that - to never approach a woman under any circumstances. They're the extreme ones, for sure, but we can't ignore that they exist. Not in an age where everyone has a platform and the extreme positions get clicks.
  Another example is the explosion of the manosphere shit. You get one dbag like Tate spreading shit that looks like self help for men. They get popular based on these ideas that seem okay on the surface, but they're really just manipulative, shady, outright illegal, etc. but because they're extreme views, that promise results, and that the target audience really wants to hear, now you can't go anywhere without seeing red/blue pill shit.
  Circling back, all it takes is a few people saying and repeating "no approaching women in public EVER" and it spreads. Frustrated women repeat it (not even being literal), more men and women see it, engage with it because it's polarizing, and it grows. It's absolutely not hard to imagine that a lot of men truly believe that most women don't want to be approached ever.
  
  I totally get that, but I just feel we have to do our part to stop pushing that narrative or at least explain it. It's not like men are stupid by default and can't be trusted in the public. It should have been an "FYI" mind of thing, instead of a decree.
- I don’t know man, it sounds like you follow rule 1 and 2 and don’t realize it.
- It wasn’t “Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman” it was, “if you shoot your shot and she’s not interested, move on and don’t make it weird. If she is at work, be very careful as customer service does not equal flirting.”
  Yes. I'm amazed so many people are missing this. I've dated a lot of women. And when I've asked someone out and it didn't work out, ya shrug, laugh it off and move on. It's not THAT personal. I've turned down others too. It's the same thing. Some people click with you, some done. Lemmy users seem to take a rejection way too personally.
- fuck em. let em figure it out. this is no time for weakness.

Women don't want to be approached in public.
Men learn this quickly.
Also that speed dating stat is totally a lie, every dating event is a sausage fest.
- It's starting to change. It's hardly the norm but speed dating events in New York, LA have had shortages of men.
  Especially with the terrible press and stories coming from them... men are starting to just not attend.
  
  Like what? What's gone wrong?
- Most speed dating events don't actually exist. It's just a scam to collect money and put you on an indefinite wait list.
- In high school, I tried to start dating a girl by asking for her Facebook account, but she rejected me. Something that women don’t understand is that constantly doing that is demoralizing. But I think that's part of beign a male.
  Women don’t want to be approached in public.
  Bro, so how are we supposed to meet each other? Telepathy?
  
  I assume the ones who say that will initiate their own relationships when they are ready.
  Clearly enough women are saying this that it's having an effect.
  
  Like in the olden days. You raid a village with the boys and rape.
  Obviously joking, though keep in mind that warfare and the subsequent rapes was usually how nations kept populations up. Plus, families have more children the poorer and more devastated an area is for some reason. So...good news! We will all have a goth GF in post-apocalyptic America.
- Women don’t want to be approached in public.
  I think the problem is that men don't want to be approached in public. Or in private, for that matter. Half the joke of this is how antisocial, short-tempered, and easily discouraged men are.
  
  Please, approach me in public. I'll be flattered even if you're not my type and will treat you with the utmost respect. It happened in the past.
  
  We have a tendency to assume other people think like us, so that would actually explain a lot.

Third places
- And the lack thereof.
  Yes that’s indeed one of the big problems.
- Fourth kinds

A lot of people in this thread are talking about how much women suck because of X, Y, Z. But like... have you tried not dating shitty women? Or at least not getting so hung up on a woman who treats you poorly? Yeah, it sucks to be treated badly, but consider that you just dodged a bullet. You don’t need women like that in your life. Find a woman you actually connect with, someone you share interests with, not just someone you want to sleep with.
Two hard truths a lot of single men need to reckon with:
1: Most people are kind of shitty, and therefore, most women are kind of shitty. I could go on about how consumer culture and social media encourage toxic traits, but the fact of the matter is you should focus on not being a shitty person yourself, and you shouldn’t settle for shitty people either.
2: With number one in mind, you need to broaden your horizons regarding what kind of woman you’re attracted to. Porn and social media have rotted our brains when it comes to attraction. Maybe I’m just pervy, but honestly, I can find something attractive in just about everyone. 90% of people are at least a 7/10 if they put in some effort, and a 7/10 who you truly vibe with is better than a 10/10 who treats you like shit. And trust me, when you form a true romantic connection with someone, they become even more attractive in your eyes.
There are good, beautiful women out there, I know because I’m marrying one. We met online, and she’s one of the kindest and smartest people I’ve ever met, and I find her more beautiful than anyone else in the world. And I’m a fat, impoverished, autist. If I can do it, so can you.
- Most people are kind of shitty, and therefore, most women are kind of shitty.
  I don't know if this is exactly inspiring anyone haha.
  
  It should be that most people are broken in some way and finding a person who is broken in a way that helps fill in your problems while you fill in there’s is a difficult but not impossible process.
  
  But men are equally shitty, so you just have to find someone on the same shit spectrum as you!
  
  Lol yeah I read that whole thing and had to a double take because it reminded of Elon asking why everyone hates him.
  
  We can be shitty together! :p
  I mean, you gotta start by seeing the positives.

For me personally, it's a combination of factors. A non zero number of my exes lost interest after a while and it damaged my ego pretty badly. Dating Apps are a string of getting ghosted with the occasional date that leads to me paying for drinks and dinner, only to get ghosted. I've always been a shy person and I can only handle so much failure before I don't want to play anymore. I missed out on the high school and college dating scenes and it shows. There is one common denominator in all of my dating failures and it's me.

I don't know what the problem is there but I can say Im stretched too thin. I once went on Prozac and it completely changed my energy levels for a time. Unfortunately, the effects wore off within a year and everything was a slog again. It just sucks to know what it feels like to have excess energy and all the dopamine that comes with it only to go back to critically low levels.
The end of the day the amount of time I would need to sort all my shit out is just not afforded to me. So I go with incremental improvements and the way things are, the world is getting shittier faster than I'm getting better.
- That feeling of not being able to keep up is very real.

I think a lot of men are just satisfied staying home playing their video game of choice while wanking it or using online apps for hookups.
Dating is a lot of work.

I started dating my wife when we were both in high school so I'm lucky that I never had to try to start dating in my 20s. But when I was in high school asking out a girl was as simple as walking up and saying "do you want to go out with me?"
I asked out girls that I KNEW there was a 99% chance they'd say no, but I asked anyways. The worst they ever said was "no". Nobody ever laughed in my face or told all their friends or spread rumors about me, they just said no thank you and I moved on.
This was like 2009-2013 mind you; I think young people are a lot more cruel now than they were then.
- Young people were every fucking bit as cruel back then. Source: same age bracket as you and was bullied nearly to suicide
  
  +1. In addition, schools frequently side with the bully because it is easier to deal with a victim's parents than a bully's parents.
  
  Trash social media has connected the worst sort of people and given them a platform to share their toxic traits.
  So cruel, but uncreative people now have wider options to be shitty.
  
  People say kids these days are somewhat nicer than generations past.
- Nobody ever laughed in my face or told all their friends or spread rumors about me, they just said no thank you and I moved on.
  I was in college by the time you were in high school, and I totally had friends who had that happen. I don't know if kids are more cruel now or if you had an exceptionally kind group of peers.
  
  It's because n=1 in either case doesn't speak for the average or general picture of what happens. Both your posts are just anecdotes.
  
  I'm their age and I've seen it observed that that time block was about the nicest high schoolers have ever been.
  
  Okay, they were laughed at. Then what? Did the guy blow it off and try with someone else, or never try again? It's not how many times you get knocked down...
- Nobody ever laughed in my face or told all their friends or spread rumors about me, they just said no thank you and I moved on.
  Lucky you, I asked a girl out once in HS, got denied, afterwards she and her friends would often look at me and giggle during classes or breaks and avoid any contact with me. Later, through a friend, I learned they came up with the nickname "priest" for me (as in catholic priest, who has to vow for celibacy), as that was the "obvious career choice" for me
- I was in High School in '93-'96. I graduated a year early. The kids were, if anything, worse back then. Y'all are much more empathetic over all, than the kids I went to HS and University with.
  
  Because we were raised by Boomers, the least empathetic generation in modern history.
  The inertia of fucking Boomers is an unwelcome gift that won't go away for years to come.
- I think young people are a lot more cruel now than they were then.
  Its more of a human thing actually. I always find anti bullying measures kind of a waste of time. Adults will bully you way more. It just isn't a swirly.
  it's making you fill out an application on a job prospects website even though the info is on the resume.
  It's every month when we pay rent.
  It's every paycheck we receive that doesn't include our surplus labor value.
  It's a overdraft fee from your bank.
  It's ComcastXfinity purchasing your local government and ensuring you have no alternatives for an ISP.
  It's the "unprecedented call volume" you wait through that happens because the customer service phone line is purposely understaffed.
  It's your health insurance denying your claim.
  It's everywhere. Just because we hide it behind a curtain of the economic system doesn't mean it changes the nature of these interactions.
  Besides, don't you want your kid to be successful? Bullies are successful as fuck. Every parent should be teaching their child to be the biggest asshole douchebag bully ever.
- Hopefully you have the same luck after your first divorce.
  
  Bruh why would you wish something like that on someone

VR porn and furry conventions
- If I had the money to go to a furry convention...
  Well, statistically I'd blow it all on a fursona pic, but hey, who knows?

Disclaimer: I'm not 18-25.
I have a ton of women friends (more than men ATM) and have solid evidence that I am a significantly attractive man. I'm also bi so my options are a tad more broad than average.
Even with this I can say that dating is unpleasant and I have never asked for one and barely do them (women are rarely bold enough to be the initiator). It feels like a socially awkward job interview where I have to spend money I don't have and I fucking hate job interviews.
Admittedly, I also am autistic, socially anxious, and sexually repressed (American sex culture sucks).

People in this thread are fucking wild... In college, and before I met my wife, I'd just get fucking trashed at house parties and then try to hit on anything with a pulse. Now, I'm not some "lady's man," and I didn't pull them all, but it definitely worked well enough to get me laid when I wasn't dating someone.
Shocker - never maced or reported for sexual assault?

Who are these "women" they mention? Some new human-like species?
- They are a post-war invention by the CIA
  
  Where can I find one? My country's tech is kinda backward.

Well, there was a time when women were THE thing making men happy. In modern age, we have computers.
- It's not quite the same.
  
  My computer is always in the mood for whatever activity I wanna do. My wife is usually too busy with her computer.
  
  You're right, computers are way better
- Don't date robots

Tbh playing Magic the Gathering or Warhammer 40k with random dudes at a hobby store is cheaper and more fun than most traditional dates I've been on.
- We need less gender separation in all sorts of social activities
  
  Nobody's stopping women from enjoying MTG or Warhammer
- And just as likely to get you laid
- Unless you're doing mainly proxies, MTG is anything but cheap these days. 😐
- Tbh playing Magic the Gathering or Warhammer 40k with random dudes at a hobby store is cheaper and more fun than most traditional dates I’ve been on.
  You 100 percent just fit the stereotype of most Lemmy users. lol
  I mean, hey, it's your life, you do you. But that sounds like a horrible life to me.

Damn, I thought I was the only basement dweller
We are to broke to spend $10 on a beer and $10 on Frenchfries at a bar.
It's free to post a dick Pic on grindr and have a guy deliver himself to your basement to give you the most enthusiastic blow job of your life.
- Lol

These types of posts always get so spicy, and not in a fun way.

People used to “socialize” in person. We had nightclubs, bars, parties, dances. Young people gathered and met—in person. That doesn’t seem to happen anymore. Why?? The allure of nightclubs was live bands… too expensive now. Bars?… too expensive now outside of special occasions. Dances? Not sure what happened there… too expensive to rent a hall and hire music? And parties? Not sure about that either.

My kid is almost 27, and he hasn't been on a date since he was six. The little girl down the street, with very strange parents, asked him over for a play date.
(No, I don't say anything to him about it. It's none of my business.)
- Maybe you should check in with him, make sure he isn't feeling lonely or depressed. As long as he's okay with it, great, but if there's support he needs, don't assume he can handle it all alone.
- It's none of my business
  Isn't it, though? I'm in my 40's and still rely on my family for advice, and to continue to grow and develop as a person. I have a lot to learn, and I think other people's thoughts and experiences are helpful for getting through things.

Nobody really cares about men besides a minority of men and an even smaller minority of women. The remainder only consider men in as much as it pertains to validating women. If you reduce women to being brood mares and play things for men it's sexist but men being seen as nothing but wallets, sentries and sex toys for women is just fine.
- I sometimes wonder why so many people consider negative effects of porn on relationships obvious while completely disregarding negative effects of romance fiction on relationships (among other things the concept of a soulmate you have to just find and then everything in the relationship is effortless afterwards).
  
  Christians are actively waging a war on porn, that's why.
- I'd love to see what you're basing that conclusion on. Most American women identify as feminist, which aims to liberate men as it does women from deeply entrenched gender norms. Less men identify as feminist, and one could argue some of that loss is because some men don't value the liberation of women while still valuing the liberation of men. Admittedly, not all feminists are working towards liberation equally, but at its core it's about self determination for everyone regardless of sex or gender. Most marriages in my social circle have the woman earning more than the man, and the men are not operating as "sentries" or "sex toys" in these relationships. Most do not need a male protector at this point and can certainly get sexual gratification solo or elsewhere if something happened. If you're not American I can't really speak about your country, and even in America lived experience can differ, but it seems reductionist to say nobody cares about men.
  It seems like you have an interest in crypto, which is fine, but that community seems to self select for a certain type of person. It's possible you're just not in spaces where the majority of people behave the way the general population does.
  
  Most American women identify as feminist
  white women voted for trump 65 to 35, so thats a lot of feminists voting for a rapist or your statement might be wrong ;)
  
  Many Americans identify as Christian while also openly chasing status and wealth. My point being, ideology does not always change or improve behavior. Most people who claim a particular dogma will not accept or even understand its core tenets. I dare say that most self identified feminists are not in it for the benefit of all.
  I have had conversations with such women, listened to their issues and watched as they have dismissed the concerns of others. I know from close acquaintences that white feminists really struggle to extend that spirit of equality to non-white female feminists, how much worse will they thus act towards men?
  There is a reason why marriage rates have dropped while rates of sexlessness for younger men have increased. Maybe your circle and observations are not the norm?
  P.S. Your assertions about cryptocurrency are way off base, I'm into tech. I used to mine and there are some projects that I have found useful. I do not associate with too many crypto people in meatspace.

I've tried and I'm still trying. As someone who is a bit shorter than average and is socially awkward, it's tough. Recently I've been able to get dates with 3 girls from dating apps (due to me being better at flirting and getting a few more matches than before), but they all went nowhere.
1 girl didn't seem to want any touching or flirty things on the first date and the conversation wasn't smooth, so I friendzoned her.
The other 2 girls immediately started with a flirty text conversation.
I hit it off with first one over text, we were having long phone calls and sending raunchy stuff over text. I had one short date with and was planning a spicier 2nd date with but she cancelled because I asked her to be my Valentine on Valentine's Day.
The 2nd one wanted to take things slower, and friendzoned me after 2 longer dates. She also wasn't that into touching.
I never kissed any of these girls. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, especially with the first flirty girl.
- Not doing anything wrong homie in fact youre doing it perfect. Just keep trying like you said, cuz it's nothing personal, you either vibe or you don't. Keep being natural so when you do click with someone they're connecting with the real you
- For the average man making unsolicited approaches, the latest stats I have seen tend to bounce between the 1-in-300 and the 1-in-1,500 range of a successful approach per total attempts. And this is just first-date-is-successful territory, it gets a good magnitude worse if you are looking for an LTR.
  From what I understand, the flip side is a lot lower: an average women making unsolicited approaches to men seem to be hitting a 1-in-5 to 1-in-20 success range, depending on conditions
  So yeah, being a man outside of the desirable 10% is indeed playing on hard mode. And from what I can see, things have only gotten much, much worse for the average man in the last few decades since I was young. I don’t envy young men these days, at all.
  I don't know what I'm doing wrong
  You are suffering from a lack of experience.
  Women have the ability to learn by proxy, when having intimate conversations with sisters, mothers, aunts, and other female role models. This gives them a massive buff long before they ever begin dating, because they are able to gain an emotional roadmap of how things go down, and then build on that with experience.
  Men don’t have this same transfer of knowledge, nor are we even psychologically set up to build one, so in aggregate we are massively nerfed straight out of the gate. This means our only way of learning is via direct experience and sheer volume: you need to circulate and learn from your experiences in order to percolate. It sucks, but that’s the breaks. The rare guy will get lucky straight out of the gate. The vast majority, however, will have to approach and be rejected by many hundreds to even thousands of women before they “find their groove” enough to catch a break.
  And your own insecurities are working against you: being nervous, desperate, or unsure of yourself is something that women - again, through that buff of intergenerational information transfer - are able to “smell” almost instinctively. If you want to vanquish those issues, you quite literally need to work on yourself, to focus on improving yourself and gaining confidence within yourself by overcoming obstacles and challenges that you set for yourself.
  Stoicism can assist in helping you become a better version of yourself, in becoming intrinsically motivated such that companionship shifts away from being a clawing need to merely a value-added proposition.
  
  For the average man making unsolicited approaches, the latest stats I have seen tend to bounce between the 1-in-300 and the 1-in-1,500 range of a successful approach per total attempts. And this is just first-date-is-successful territory, it gets a good magnitude worse if you are looking for an LTR.
  From what I understand, the flip side is a lot lower: an average women making unsolicited approaches to men seem to be hitting a 1-in-5 to 1-in-20 success range, depending on conditions
  Where can I read more about this?
- it's a dating app. Nobody wants anything from them.
- but she cancelled because I asked her to be my Valentine on Valentine's Day.
  You can't just say that and not provide the rest of the story. Do you have the transcript still? Because either you're lying or this is the wildest thing ever. Either way I think we'd want to see.
  
  Sure, I'll give more details.
  I matched with her on Tinder and waited a few hours and she messaged me first, and not something generic but something about my profile. We started chatting over text and I suggested a short first "piano practice" date in a few days (we both play piano).
  The next day we had a 2+ hour call where we played video games (Fortnite, don't judge, I don't play that unless I play with someone else) together and just chatted. Everything was going great.
  The following days she was sending me super flirty texts ("my skirt will distract you", and suggestive stuff about touching each other all over). I've never gotten texts like this in my life so I was slightly reserved but still flirty.
  The date went well, we both got along with each other and we sat real close to each other. I even gave her a flower, and she told me that made her feel so special. There was one point where our faces were close to each other and she might have wanted a kiss, but I chickened our and just hugged her.
  We planned a 2nd date as a movie date at my place. All the while we were feverently texting each other lots of things, from platonic to romantic to sexually suggestive. We even had a call meant to be a half hour but it lasted 1.5 hours. It reached a boiling point where we agreed on an "inter-date" study session the day before Valentine's Day.
  It was just about half an hour and we were both trying to get work done in a very public place so I wasn't touchy at all. She also brought up more somber topics like politics (we have the same political views for the most part). At the end, because Valentine's Day was near, I asked her to be my Valentine (as per the suggestion of a female friend) and got an unenthusiastic "sure."
  10 minutes later she texted that "we'd be better off as friends than a couple" because there was "no romantic physical chemistry" and cancelled the 2nd date.
  I really wanted to explain that I had little experience and that the 2nd date was where the "action" would truly begin. By this point I had developed a huge crush on her and my heart was broken. She really was just my type: nerdy, ambitious, and beautiful. Heck, I'm crying as I write this right now.
- As someone who is a bit shorter than average and is socially awkward, it’s tough.
  You can fix the socially awkward part. And women aren't as obsessed with height as Lemmy and the interwebs make them out to be.

Women have been told they only need to exist to be desired and are not putting any effort at the beginning of the relationship and men are getting tired of doing all the lift without any reciprocation.
That has been my experience, anyway, and I'm getting tired of meeting women that show no effort to make things work.
- Who told women that?

For me at this point in my life trying to find someone to date just isn't worth the effort. I have limited time, money, and mental energy and there are better ways to spend it than on women who for the most part won't be interested in me anyway. Unless the relationship turns out great and we're amazingly compatible it's going to add more stress than it's worth. I still go out with my friend (about 30% of whom are women) and we do various activities that I enjoy. I have hobbies that interest me and basically all my free time is occupied between stuff I want to do and chores. If some woman I know I get along with likes me enough to pursue something romantic I might give it a shot but otherwise I'm comfortable with things as they are and I don't want to risk fucking that up by adding someone else into the mix.
- Exactly. I imagine many people are in a similar situation. If things are stable, you are happy, and don't see a need to change anything then why change anything?

I just got divorced at 30 after 7 years and I'm probably not going to get involved with a woman again. I'm not interested in having kids because the world is ending so it's essentially a no win situation unless someone can change my mind on this.
Had a crush on one of my friends for years and she wasn't interested even when I got divorced. Till I bought my house and now she wants in on my life.
I'm not saying all women are bad but I just don't see the risk being worth it. My ex wife ruined my life after many years of happiness.
There are a lot of positives being in a relationship but way more negatives. I'm just happier alone.
- My wife of 20 years just suddenly (to me anyway) decided she wants a divorce. I was 30 when we got married. Your life is just beginning. Don't waste it feeling sorry for yourself.

Too busy playing WoW. Ain't nobody got time for that...

Tbh I would probably try speed dating if I was looking for someone these days. I don't think I would have at 18-25 though.
- The older you get, the more you value your time and energy (mental, emotional, physical, etc.) At least it seems that way for me and people in my age range. I did actually meet a woman recently and actually enjoy every minute spent together so I'm gonna take that fork in the road and see where it leads. Another part of aging, I no longer have high hopes so I just go with the flow. If it works out, great, if not, totally fine, life goes on.
  
  "I have low hopes."
- There aren't even speed dating events for people under 25 in my area.

I'm 41 now but I haven't gone on a date-date in 3 years or so. The TL;DR online dating is absolutely not worth participating in. Neither is speed dating, and people are isolating more and more.
I'm not wildly attractive but I'm not unattractive either. I'm probably like a 6 or a 7. I think I'm interesting and can hold a reasonable conversation. I'm intelligent. I've been told I'm funny (sometimes). I am a bit clumsy sometimes though. I've been in two long term (3+ years) relationships in my life but one of those relationships ended due to alcohol (we mutually sucked at the time), and the other due to financial reasons. Both hurt pretty deep when they ended and I didn't date for a couple years after either of those.
In the time that I wasn't feeling some form of loss from relationships that meant something, I tried online dating. I tried OkCupid, Bumble, PlentyOfFish, some bullshit regarding a bagel, Tinder, match.com, etc. I probably tried any of them that were active at the time. Not once did it ever amount to a relationship, in probably 15 years of using those sites off and on. I've unquestionably had more bad experiences than good. 9 out of 10 dates are bad. 1 ouf of 10 are ok. The worst time I recall was when a woman drugged me after our date. Another bad time I can recall, my date showed up on drugs or drunk or just incredibly stupid or something. She racked up a $110 bar tab during our 30 minute meet and greet and dipped out without saying anything at all or paying the bill. I was once catfished (is it catfishing when it's just straight up someone else's picture, or does it have to be your own picture doctored up / photoshopped to be considered catfishing?) by a co-worker on Bumble. I've been stood up for a first date at three or four times. I've been cancelled on an hour or two before a date at least 15 times.
The last time I had an online date, everything seemed to be going fine, we had a drink at the first bar, established that we seemingly got along, went on a walk around downtown, check out a show and then all of a sudden I'm being told about a sex kit that she purchased from a vending machine while I was in the bathroom that she wants to try out. I thought she was pretty cool before that. I wasn't 100% sure if I was attracted to her, but I knew we at least got along on a person-to-person level. Telling me about a sex kit like that on the first date was a "eh, hard pass" for me. Women have either been fully uninterested in me; or so interested in me that I find it repulsive.
Speed dating is also, completely shit; and it's a scam. The first time I tried speed dating, it was some website where you pick your city, your age range, and then what event you'd want to attend based on your other parameters. They take your money, and then send you an email a day before the event saying the event is cancelled because they couldn't get enough people, but you cannot have a refund either. Then you attempt to re-schedule and it gets cancelled a second time for the same reason, then a third. Finally - you attend one of these things in person, end up getting "3 matches" emailed to you, and then you attempt to make contact and never hear from anyone ever again.
I felt like a complete horses' ass when I attempted to do speed dating a second time 12 years later and had a very similar experience. This second time around though, I did a charge back on my credit card after the 3rd cancellation because "they couldn't get enough people to attend." Thanks for nothing Troy.
After soooo many bad experiences, and never having any success with what are the now conventional methods, and coming to the realization that I'm likely halfway dead now... I feel like I have a trauma response to the idea of dating at this point. I'd still like to be in a happy relationship, but even thinking about trying the methods I've tried in the past one more time causes me anxiety.
I'm introverted by nature, and as of 7 months ago, I live alone in a state, where I also work remotely from home and know no one. When I first got here, I tried a few events from Meetup.com thinking, "hey, maybe this is how 40-year-olds make friends," but didn't enjoy anything that I went to, other than the events where people sit in an audience quietly and watch someone else on stage. I found a really cool thing that I like attending where anyone is welcome to get up on stage and tell an 8 minute story about pretty much anything - fact or fiction. I really enjoy attending these, but it's no way to meet people. The epidemic in question is absolutely not just about dating. It's about making friends too.
I imagine I'm not alone in my experiences.

After my long relationship (7+), i started dating again. Unfortunately i discovered that no one is looking for a meaningful connection or a serious conversation. Everyone wants to catered and be heard, no one wants to listen for just a second. I actively stopped myself from flirting/dating anymore, it’s just a complete waste of time 🤷‍♂️im sorry to say many many many girls are VERY VERY superficial people.

It's giving
April – 1805.
Napoleon is master of Europe.
Only the British fleet stands before him.
Oceans are now battlefields.
- All the homies are improvising on the violin with their very close male friends.
- In the grim darkness of the 18th Century there is only Sharpe.
  
  Now that's soldierin'

I don't buy the "speed dating has less men than women" thing for a second unless they're talking about the 45+ bracket.
In fact I just checked a local speed dating event and the male tickets were sold out and the female ones had a 2 for 1 promo lol
- Wait did you just contradict yourself in two sentences? Or are you saying you checked for 45+, where it seems to be true but think it's not for other ages?
  
  It was a sub 35 event
  Also I misspoke and corrected it.
  Typically for seniors dating events the women's tickets will sell out first and in younger dating events the men's will first.
- male tickets were sold out and the female ones had a 2 for 1 promo
  Doesn't that reinforce that there are more men there than women? That would tell me that they are full on men, but desperately trying to sell tickets to women to get them to show up.
  
  Yes, totally. I used too many negatives in my first sentence and literally said the opposite of what I meant.
  I do think my clear opposition to that the OP said should indicate what my sentiment was though.
  
  They're likely describing the 45+ group which they mentioned being the exception.

What speed dating trouble anon is talking about?
- It's a lie.
  Part of an attempt to further isolate people and blame men for Capitalism killing relationships
  
  Part of an attempt to further isolate people and blame men for Capitalism killing relationships
  100% agree with this. One of the reasons my ex gave when we broke up was that I'm a workaholic. At the time I worked at a newspaper and sometimes finished 20 - 30 minutes after my regular time when a big story came in late.

Maybe because they are getting advice from other men how to trick a girl into giving them sex, this why alot look to pickup artist, it involves manipulation and tricks. They got so used to it, they don't even ask people

Let me offer a scenario; two drunk people who wouldn't normally go near each other spend a night together. The morning comes, regret is in the air for both parties, which of these two people is most at risk?
The correct answer is: "the one who doesn't accuse the other on social media".
Just remember, no-one gave any indication of gender there. It's not really about gender at this point - it's the fact we've constructed a world where a casual encounter has the potential to become the prisoner's dilemma if it is regretted afterwards.
That's not a world where people take risks on a date, especially if physical intimacy is on the cards. To much risk!

So... Over the phone doesn't count? Texting doesn't count? Email? Those don't count? I would think that in this day and age texting would be the normal way to ask a girl out for a first date.
You know it's REALLY hard for someone not super social to ask a girl out in person. I'm 50 and i think I've never asked a girl out for a first date in person.... But then again, I am an introverted nerd so that's probably to be expected. Hell, I asked the girl I ended up marrying out over email....

Do people ask each other out or do they just hang out?

Speed dating is dumb anyway
- Tell that to the woman you’re not speed dating rn
  
  Need for Speed Dating: Most Unwanted (2005)

if bars are empty that's because you live in a weird suburb
- Yeah bars are not empty in places that encourage going to places without a car. If you need to be sober to go to and from a bar, then nobody will go to a bar.
  
  Americans need to adopt the UK system for bars.
  The correct number of bars is equal to, one per every 20 people in the town and they should be at the corner of residential streets and not in the town proper. They all need to be called things like "The Slug and Cabbage"
  
  in my experience every single person in a suburban american bar is drinking and then driving home
- Alcohol is damned expensive at bars, and the number of people who drink is going down over time.

The difference is that primarily one of these parties will possibly suffer the consequences of both social perception and legal action while the other will not. If all possible attempts to advance or approach carry disproportionate amounts of risk, then it is foolish to knowingly progress without an obvious opportunity.
- "Hey, want to go to spoons later?" isn't going to result in legal action.
  
  "Hey, want to go to spoons later?" isn't going to result in legal action.
  But making an unsolicited approach, and wholly lacking the experience and social expertise to recognize that the woman wants nothing to do with you, and is actually embarrassed by your presence, confers a non-trivial and very real risk of police presence.
  And that is while also being wholly non-threatening and totally harmless. Absolutely oblivious to social conditions, sure, but also absolutely not a danger and receptive to clear and unambiguous language -- which was never provided until the cops provided it for her.
  Yes, actually saw this happen IRL. Poor dude was absolutely mortified, which likely made him think thrice of ever making another unsolicited approach and definitely nerfing any possibility of becoming more experienced at interacting with women.
  These kinds of men don’t just spring out of holes in the ground, fully formed. They are shaped by supremely negative experiences like that one, which could have been trivially avoided by adequate communication on the part of the woman.

For what reason would men randomly approach women? Women online have made it clear that doing so results in being made fun of, that women hate the features of testosterone-having men, and they've made it clear there is a long list of "icks" that you can't have.
The only dating i do is within the circles of friends.
Currently working on an absolute package, btw. Funny, fun, beautiful, sheeeeeesh.
The heart flutters at the thought.

I usually get people asking for my number or socials when they're interested, asking out tends to happen over electronic communication after that.
My process is basically
Casual conversation- if you don't hit it off naturally here, let it go.
Reciprocal flirting
Exchange contact info
Develop friendship
Ask out directly
???
Go back to 1
I also get told I'm very attractive in various verbage near daily so 🤷‍♀️
Idk, just be respectful and don't be pushy if they're trying to let you down (and pay attention for if they're trying to do it gently)

I moved from Rio de Janeiro to São Paulo a couple years ago, and while I miss living 15 minutes walking for the beach, the club scene here is in another level. I even starting doing that years ago I tough was crazy that is going to a club for a couple of hours, getting out going to another club after.