time to get out

Did anyone mention how the 1930 tariffs sparked a wave of retaliatory tariffs by other nations, greatly reducing international trade, pushing a natural resources poor Japan to conclude that in order to survive it needed an empire, so it invaded other countries, committing such atrocities that even Nazi Germany was like "whoa dude, chill", which lead to their participation in WWII, Pearl Harbor and the deployment of nuclear bombs? No?
- That's quite the oversimplification, and I approve.
  
  Haha yeah, but I could do even better:
  Tariffs bad because history
  
  There's a lot of oversimplification. But the US embargo on Japan in 1940 led directly to the attack on Pearl Harbor.
  The US embargoed all oil to Japan. Japan calculated it had less than 2 years worth of oil before it ran out, so it needed to capture the Dutch East Indies (modern day Indonesia, more or less) because they were a major source of oil. The American puppet state of the Philippines was between Japan and the Dutch East Indies, so they had to deal with that somehow. Their decision was to preemptively attack Pearl Harbor and hope that they could consolidate their gains in the Pacific by the time the US was able to counter-attack.
  Japan's actions in WWII weren't directly about tariffs, but they were about spheres of influence, like the Greater East-Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.
  A lot of Trump's posturing seems to be about bringing back these spheres of influence. The US wants to control North America, taking over Greenland and Canada, and leave Europe to become part of the Russian sphere.
- Japan was expanding long before 1930's. Korea, Mongolia, and parts of China were already under Japan long before 1930.
  
  Yeah that comment is wildly ignorant of Japan's actions and aspirations pre1930. Fuck Trump and these tariffs, mind you.
  
  But, the full scale invasion of China by happens around 1931, which then lead to the conflict that get China involved in WWII.
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo_Bridge_incident
- So you're saying that Japan threw a shit fit because it wasn't allowed to trade with other nations. Japan.
  Fucking love it.
  
  It’s also wrong on every account; Japan was already doing imperialist shit for decades and it wasn’t tariffs but oil sanctions to try to stymie their fuel supply that sent them raging.
  It wasn’t American tariffs, we didn’t fucking matter nearly as much to the world before WWII as after

The whole plan was to move production back to the US. The thing though is, that you can't make Americans sit and sew Jeans that sell sell for $15 or assemble electronics for $6/hr
Maybe you could 100 years ago, but there is s a reason why we trade across the world and its not because we are kind. It is because it makes companies more money.
This will be mostly messy for the US. The rest of the world now has tarrifs on the US. But US now has tarrifs on the whole world. Any other country can look into expanding in new markets now, but the US has shut all its doors
- Yeah we can't make everything.
  Not only do most of those low level factory jobs suck we simply don't have the workers, we're at less than 5% unemployment.
  
  we're at less than 5% unemployment
  So far
  
  Nor does the US need to make everything.
  The US is a service economy. It makes money through capital and intellectual property. Being the first to innovate means also having the opportunity to wedge yourself as a permanent middle man and charge people around the world to pass go.
  Think Uber eats for example. If I order food in Toronto from a Toronto based restaurant fulfilled by a courier in Toronto, 30% of my payment is going to them in silicon valley for managing that order.
  Similarly, when you purchase an app on Google or Apple store, they are collecting 30%.
  If I am in Norway purchasing a game on Steam from a Norwegian developer, you guessed it, 30% is going to Steam.
  This is America's strength now, not making t shirts, shoes or cars entirely domesticallty.
  Most of the world was ok with paying the markup for convenience.
  Since the US have gone rogue, many are calling for an end for respect to US intellectual property. Perhaps each country should have its own Uber, app store etc so that the cut can stay within our borders.
  One case: Uber was charging 30% commission for managing rickshaw rides in India (a country with relatively low purchasing power per capita).
  It was only after domestic options like Rapido or Namma Yatri undercut them that they moved to a subscription based model, charging drivers 20 to 40 rupees daily, rather than taking an exorbitant commission of 30% per ride. To India's credit, it has a robust IT sector located in one of its major cities (Bangalore) which helps promote competition in this case.
  
  we simply don't have the workers
  And the US is deporting a lot of it's workforce for not being white enough.
- you can't make Americans sit and sew Jeans
  You can with
  🌈🦄 ✨ slavery ✨🦄 🌈
- This is the thing that makes no sense. All the thinking stops at bring jobs back to the US.
  Okay, raw material issues aside, what are these jobs?
  They are jobs that left because it was so cheap to do it overseas that it still makes financial sense to ship the product here after it's made.
  NOONE IN THE US IS DOING THAT JOB FOR THAT MONEY HERE.
  
  My Trump voting uncle had nothing to say when he was talking about how all the jobs were going to come back to the USA and I asked him if he wants him or any of his kids picking peaches in California for $7.50 an hour. Who exactly does he think will do these jobs when all the immigrants who are trying to establish themselves here are gone? He did not surrender the point being a good MAGAt but you can tell he had not thought about it in the slightest.
- We could theoretically figure out some way to do it with automation. The problem is it would take a decade to figure out and there's zero chance these tariffs last that long.
  
  AI will make it come true, promised! (/s, just in case)
- The whole plan
  "Plan" is a strong word to use for this.
- Oh they know that Americans won't work at factories. That's not their goal.
  They want to bring manufacturing back the the US, it just won't be humans doing the manufacturing, it will be robots.
  
  There is a reason why this is not the case already. It's more expensive.
- You can make Americans design and watch a machine that sews $15 jeans. But tariffs won't help with that if all the machine parts are more expensive too.

if anyone has any questions about getting out of the country, ask away.
I'm a long-term traveler.
- What countries do you recommend that have the easiest visa requirements?
  
  at this point, visas are very easy to get in general, but Thailand is still one of the easiest and is one of the friendliest and most affordable countries around.
  if you're a US citizen, you have visa-free travel in Thailand for 60 days.
  if you need a visa, go to the evisa website, thaievisa.go.th, fill out the form, pay the fee, they'll email you the visa in a couple days.
  I usually recommend Thailand or somewhere in Southeast Asia as a first destination. good food, great healthcare, cheap living, great people, beautiful environment, and they're very used to travelers so there are local and expat support systems nationwide.
  another nice thing about Southeast asia is that there are tons of other friendly places close by.
  it's about as easy to live there as anywhere else, but the support systems and the country being very used to travelers might make first time travelers more comfortable.
  oh PS thailand has a lot a lot of really good all you can eat buffets for 3 to 10 dollars per person.
  
  I've read in some unsubstantiated comments that the state of the authorities of Hungary is so fucked up, they barely check if you can bribe a family tree researcher to make up some BS that your grandparents were Hungarian.
  Pretend they were 1956 refugees that never had papers in the US, find some people who actually got lost in 1956 that have birth certs in Hungary - like maybe killed by the Soviets - learn some elementary Hungarian, be white, and boom, EU citizenship.
  I take no responsibility for this harebrained idea and reiterate that this is just some ridiculous thing I read back on Reddit way back when.
  
  I'm a white American that's been living in tijuana, Mexico for the last 9.5 years. I drive north to the US to go to work every day and drive south again to go home. The Mexican border police only check maybe 5% of cars that drive from US to Mexico, and when they check me they've only ever checked my car registration and/or passport. It's an extremely open border crossing when going south.
  If you wanted to actually be legal, a temporary tourist visa to visit Mexico can be purchased for about 25 usd and allows you to stay for up to 6 months inside Mexico 🤷‍♂️ and when it expires you can buy a new one.
  
  Cyprus sells passports, so if you have the money you can instantly become an EU citizen
- What tips or suggestions do you have for families with young kids?
  
  Three big ones are:
  There are lots of international families, so they'll have company, support networks and infrastructure.
  There are tons of safe, affordable countries with easy access to good education.
  Native English speakers are all but guaranteed jobs as ESL teachers, so the parents will have access to available, steady income abroad.
  A lot of people don't know about international schools, which is where most international families send their kids.
  Other than the first two points, there are not many differences between my individual and family advice. For many families, moving from the US to a country like Thailand means safer, more affordable lives with a better quality of life.
- Any advice on how to move all my shit without it getting stolen?
  I've got a collection of a shit load of Legos from childhood that hold a lot of sentimental value, but it's easily worth a shit load of money. In particular I'd be looking to move to Costa Rica. My fiance is from there, but she said stuff like that would be likely to get stolen by customs.
  
  people usually ship their belongings by sea or air(ocean freight is cheaper and slower, but I'm not sure by how much with Costa Rica being so near) with a company like DHL, I've used them and found them to be a reliable international shipping company, FedEx and UPS are also options.
  I wouldn't worry about customs taking your stuff, especially if you have insurance or tracking or anything like that on the ticket, and especially with a wealthier country like Costa Rica where paper trails are more important.
  I've actually never heard of customs taking anything legal in real life from anyone who's shipped belongings overseas(my friend's yak jerky got confiscated because it's illegal to import a lot of international meat products into the US) so I personally don't believe customs pocketing things is very common.
  Legos aren't apparently valuable on their face and with the paper trail of receipts/documents I wouldn't think you have to worry about anything getting lifted by customs. plus, if you add some fragile notices and insurance on there the agents responsible for transporting the packages will be a lot more careful, for sure.

There was also the McKinley Tariff of 1890 that is taxed foreign imports at almost 50% and caused increased prices and consumer backlash and lead to Democrats winning Congress in a landslide.
- Aren't you glad Trump promised you don't have to vote ever again now?

There's in general no way this can work long-term. When nations cooperate, they both benefit. If you're the only nation not cooperating with everyone else, then everyone else will surpass you until you're North Korea levels of yesteryear.
- Looking at this through the lens of "how can the oligarchs benefit", it makes complete sense - Strip all government assistance, remove social nets, add tariffs that will basically kill most small businesses (think also farms, mom and pop shops, etc). Lead to depression, billionaires swoop in and buy up land/homes/business for pennies on the dollar (or just basically crush small businesses to get them out of the way). One couldn't design a better way to fuck over everyone and enrich the oligarchs
  
  Yup, a fire sale for oligarchs.
- My macroecon book, which was written by a guy from the Bush administration, hit us over the head with that concept.
  It's strange to thing that he'd be considered a pariah by his party's leadership now.

This is what happens when a populace isn't properly educated.
Prepare for this country to be on a downward slope for the rest of our lives. That's the most likely future for us.
- The brain drain can already be seen, most have already moved abroad, or are waiting to.

If I recall my history right, the 1929 stock market collapse precipitated the Great Depression, and the tariffs were a (misguided) attempt at trying to set the economy straight.
- Dont let facts get in the way of a cheeky social media post.
- Ferris bueller kinda called this one.
  The bueller... bueller... bueller bit is preceded by ben stein explaining the Hadley snoot tariffs to a visibly bored and distracted classroom.
  
  From Smoot-Hawley to Bueller-Trumpy.
- https://saifedean.com/the-fiat-standard-chapter-11
  This ones got a good section on the great depression.
  "The imposition of trade barriers in turn resulted in a further deterioration of economic conditions in the countries imposing them, even as their own citizens suffered from these very policies. The governments imposing such barriers, and the economists advocating them, would of course never admit that inflation, increasing centralization, and protectionist policies caused the progressively worsening depression. Instead, political leaders blamed other countries and local ethnic minorities. Years of scapegoating and growing hostility toward foreigners and minorities came to a head in 1939. The world's totalitarian fiat regimes began to turn on each other and on their ethnic minorities. Hayek had identified this threat to global peace in his “Monetary Nationalism and International Stability” lectures in 1937."
- Did it make it better or worse?
  
  In case you are seriously asking this is from Wikipedia.
  Intended to bolster domestic employment and manufacturing, the tariffs instead deepened the Depression because the U.S.'s trading partners retaliated with tariffs of their own, leading to U.S. exports and global trade plummeting. Economists and historians widely regard the act as a policy misstep, and it remains a cautionary example of protectionist policy in modern economic debates.
  Soooo much much worse.

I'd like to see U.S become so weak that Natives are able to reclaim their land. Imagine them scalp those nazi regime supporting mfers. Brings a happy tear in my eye.
- I theorize that this is why most/all US leaders have been pro-Israel. Because if they were anything else, the native population would be like "hey, so what about us and our stolen lands?" and US leaders will absolutely not deal with that.
  
  I'm pretty sure it's the money. If minority groups were lobbying just as hard to both parties, the populist leaders would switch.
  
  300 years of the US not giving a shit about the native population or about appearing hypocritical towards them would argue with your theory.
  There's not a single US leader who worries what Native Americans would say if they turned against Israel. They would just ignore them like they always have.
  
  Yes, that! Also for me U.S seems to think that somehow everyone from Middle-East is a terrorist, even though that they are the worst terrorists themselves alongside Russia and Israel.

Thanks for the insight, stacy! By the way, why are you still posting on a nazi platform? Oh for internet points? Cool, cool.
Edit: Damn, there's more nazis on Lemmy than I thought.
- Because that's the platform that needs to hear it
  Circlejerk preaching to the choir is fun, but doesn't reach the people who need to hear it
  
  You’re right, we should send Bernie to CPAC. Bet he’ll win over lots of hearts and minds.
  
  Yeah that's bullshit rationalization. You don't pay nazis to advertise anti-nazi sentiment.
- Edit: Damn, there’s more nazis on Lemmy than I thought.
  As a rule, Lemmings are steadfastly against any course of action that might make an actual difference. They'll post about guillotines and green Mario until the cows come home, since no one actually expects them to act on that sort of thing, but whenever anyone suggests anything that a typical person could actually do it's nothing but excuses.
  
  It appears the extent of their participation is spewing vitriol and clicking downvote buttons. lol
  Meanwhile, I'm going to a capital protest tomorrow. Those of you doing things, KEEP RESISTING THESE FUCKS.
  
  It's cause you're over at lemmy.world
  It's the largest, and therefore has the most mainstream people, who tend to be some flavor of liberal
  In theory, joining any server gets you the whole federation experience... In practice, your home server will greatly affect discovery and shape what kind of people you encounter most
  
  ~~Lemmings~~ people in general

angrily looks at the "verified" badge

Wait. I just realized something. One of the significant reasons humans are such amazing creatures compared to the other species is our generational knowledge we can pass down. But we have a saturation point. We need consciousness information downloading. Not immortality. But a way to download Wikipedia to our brains. That's the next step.
- Agreed. It's so tiring actually navigating Wikipedia. I just want a megacorp to select the best bits and inject them directly into my brain when they see fit!
  
  But make sure they take out anything that would negatively affect their company!
- The solution to that historically has been urbanization, which allowed people to become specialists in a chosen field. They get to absorb all the knowledge in a specific field of expertise, and then a select few are smart enough to push it further.
  Unfortunately we haven't really managed to apply this to politics yet, because those who are specialists in getting elected aren't necessarily specialists in governing either. Nor are they likely good at governing everything, maybe just a specific part. But picking who is suitable enough is not done by specialists but by the general public, which is both democracy's strength and weakness.
  
  I can agree with that. But something has gotta give? I think we're in the right direction, we have some significant spedbumps along the way is all
- So basically ai chips.
  
  Possibly. I think that might be a temporary stop gap until we get to bio engineering. I doubt we are going to integrate with AI
  
  Or vampires.
  
  not necessarily, just a brain chip, doesn't need ai
  
  ?????????
- I don't think it will work. Some knowledge you just can't acquire without lived experiences.
  
  Sure. But you don't need lived experiences to have full knowledge of economic histories or previous laws that have failed and should not be brought back. "Lived experiences" is just another bandwidth problem for most.

Third time is a charm. No seriously this unhinged president will be the destruction of the nation as the Democrats predicted. It was fun while it lasted but since I'm not rich I'm screwed.

How did 1930 one caused a depression when we were in the 29' crack?
- It made things way worse.
  
  The tariffs didn't cause a crisis though.
- I guess the same way we're still in the COVID crack
  
  But is it also twenty-nine feet deep?
- How did you measure the depth of it in feet?

Maybe depression is the goal along with the whole gamut of initiatives whose only logical aggregate result would be the weakening of the United States
Seems fairly easy to accomplish when an entire political party's ideology is built upon a foreign power's propaganda
- Look at the formula they’re using to calculate the tariffs. They are not playing 4D chess. They should be back in elementary school to learn how math works, not running a country!
- They like to cause a depression, wait long enough for everyone to forget that they caused the depression, let the regime change once or twice, then fix the issue to remind you that you need them. It's a lot like the whole "pay me to ensure you don't have an unfortunate accident" where then if you don't pay they can cause the unfortunate accident.
  
  If they cause a depression then the next regime change will be away from the United States. The USA got into its dominant position because it was the only major power left standing after World War II and has kept it since then through inertia. If that inertia is disrupted it's not coming back.

The last tariff I personally remember was the 1983 motorcycle tariff signed by Reagan. The Yamaha Virago was seen as such a threat to Harley-Davidson that they pushed for and got a tariff imposed on imported motorcycles over 700ccs engine displacement. Yamaha's answer was to reduce the engine displacement from 750 to 699cc. The 250cc Virago is still in production today, though they install a straighter handlebar on it and call it a "V-Star 250."
- Targeted tariffs are regularly used for specific reasons. We just don’t normally go all AoE with tariffs.
- I feel like those 80s motorcycle tariffs are why the US motorcycle industry is so uncompetitive today. In the 80s, HD got fat my making bikes that wouldn't be viable anywhere else in the world. HD didn't have to compete because tariffs guaranteed their market. Meanwhile Honda, Yamaha,. Kawasaki, Suzuki were developing a lean, lightweight model, we saw the convergent evolution of the Universal Japanese Motorcycle and lean production processes. It was specifically those tariffs that made the big 4 what they are today - basically unstoppable.

Yeah but THEY didn't have the TECHNOLOGY we do to be able to RAMP UP our DOMESTIC PRODUCTION! So it's a GOOD THING that President Elon Musk and First Lady Donald Trump HAVENT been Cutting US Investing and Production!

The definition of stupidity is to try things that failed in the past again in the hope to get a better result.
- Insanity actually

Third time's the charm right? Right!?!?
💀

They don't care what it does to people, it makes some rich people richer like the alcohol prohibition

It'll work this time... trust me bro!

But this one is different... ... ... I just can't remember how... but I know they said this one is different, so it must be... right?...
Edit: autocorrect
- Glorious leader is a billionaire. We will be fine. He won’t even take a paycheck!!
  
  He's so generous and kind. A modern day Hercules you could say.

This one is going to work /s

Third time lucky.

1930 was about money supply. That's when bitcoin and all the other crypto coins will be handy.
- If there was only Bitcoin sure, but every time someone out there creates a shitcoin, it increases money supply, distracting people away from Bitcoin and gold. That's why it will still be a bloodbath
  
  Be the change!™ Spread awareness of shitcoin scams. Friends don't let friends hodl shitcoins!