Neopronouns are not trolling

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/20091173

I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.

65 comments

I'm seeing a lot of downvotes on this post, if you feel you disagree, feel free to send me a DM.

A commenter was removed and banned for this
I respect the chosen gender of whomever chooses their gender, but that's limited to he/she/they. The gender spectrum is real and valid, but you will never make me refer to that dragonfucker idiot as "drag/drag". I support gender expression, I do not support being made to speak nonsense words for attention seeking adult children. Nonbinary and trans people deserve support, not the spoilt little shits who demand I refer to them by "glomph/glue'. And I resent the idea that they are equally valid concerns. So yes, they are fucking trolling. They're not trolling me, they're attaching their bullshit to a class of people who deserve our respect and support, following them around wearing clown shoes and undermining their very real concerns. If you support gender expression, then support the people trying to survive a world hostile to their very existence, not the people playing at it.
as 'gatekeeping'
I guess Blahaj is now added to the list of instances I avoid when possible. Unfortunate.
- A lot of people say the same things about trans folks in terms of gay rights. Some people might be fucking around, but drawing a line in the sand like that is going to inevitably invalidate people with legitimate identities. And if you really don't want to use them, it's super easy to just ignore. Idk if I've ever even had to refer to someone with third person pronouns on Lemmy.
  
  Some people might be fucking around, but drawing a line in the sand like that is going to inevitably invalidate people with legitimate identities.
  All concepts are just lines in the sand, even down into STEM. Lines have to be drawn somewhere. The question is whether the new line drawn or erased disrupts other lines, who it benefits, and what it's worth. I happen to have a very low opinion of the idea that gender is entirely arbitrary and without any line in the sand, and that "I identify as an attack helicopter" is not a conservative defamation of the trans and NB community, but a legitimate point of view.
  And if you really don’t want to use them, it’s super easy to just ignore.
  The commenter was removed and banned for disagreeing with the concept that dragonfucker is a gender. On the meta comm for the instance. Under a post by the main admin.
  Idk if I’ve ever even had to refer to someone with third person pronouns on Lemmy.
  Dragonfucker has been banned from a number of communities for insisting on just that.
  
  A lot of people say a lot of things, who cares?
  I don't think it's an unfair line to draw at all. We draw it at what's real and what's not.
  Gender as a spectrum is real. We know this. We also know that the person posting comments on Lemmy isn't a fucking dragon because dragons aren't real.
  Line drawn.
  
  Even if we take the person pug is talking about at face value (which, frankly, we shouldn't for them in particular), it's not a gender identity. It's just an identity. We don't have a pronoun for every granular identity under the sun, so it's weird we accept that some people feel the need to have totally unique ones, which goes against the point of pronouns to begin with.
  That said, being referred to in the third person would actually be fine imo, but I've been primed for that by being a weeb.
  
  "Dragself" is not a legitimate identity. I get what you're trying to say, but wherever that blurry line may be, I am confident that people with absurd neopronouns like that are not on the right side of it.
- That might've gone over better if it didn't read like an angry rant against "idiots"/"adult children"/"spoiled little shits"
  
  If it was banned for incivility, that would have been one thing. But it was banned for 'gatekeeping'. Writing on the wall, and all that jazz.
- You don't have to refer to them at all, just block obvious troll accounts. It's not like you're going to shame them into not being a troll.
- Seems mostly ok to kick someone for being rude and directly offending a specific person in their posts, regardless of the opinion voiced.
- Yep I had a feeling this was about that dragonfucker. So fucking obnoxious, and being forced to "respect" this bullshit is obviously eroding much needed support for trans people who aren't terminally online spoilt little shits.
- I cannot wait for mockery and satire to make a resurgence in the media throughout the 2030s and 40s, as a reaction to the American Left's insane bent for language policing. It's going to be wonderful.
  No one needs pronouns on the web. If I wanted to quote or refer to the OP, I would simply use the proper noun 'qaz' - qaz says, qaz wrote. It reminds me of an absurd Microsoft keynote presentation a couple of years ago where each host not only provided their names as well as a description of their clothing for vision-impaired viewers (useful information), but tacked on their pronouns too. 'Over to you, Lisa!' 'Thanks Bob'.
  I have no sympathy for instances like Blahaj in this particular aspect of moderation. This is a social and political millstone you fitted around your own necks.
- i see the gatekeeping. It's the same an antiLGBTQ person would say to an LGBTQ... "your pronouns aren't valid". So yes. It is gatekeeping. Thank you mods for keeping the area LGBTQ allied!

i don't mind what people call themselves and I'll use it to refer to them if I notice it, but they shouldn't expect their pronoun to be understood if it's something obscure

Is it safe to asume that this is why the mods have
...been planning on moving 196 to lemmy.world ASAP…
per https://lemmy.world/comment/14170082
- Eh, I don't see that as a good idea... also there's already a 196 in lemmy.ml
  
  I don't like the idea either. If true, it seems like the mods/community are upset they can't feed trolls, or bully people who aren't the "right" type of queer.
- i have .world straight up blocked. when the man or bear thing happened EVERY shitty post/poster came from there. and watching pugjesus throw their little shitfit has only cemented that decision.
  hilariously i’ve had way better interactions with .ml users, so i guess if the migration does happen i’ll just hang out there. i’d much rather dodge politics than thinly-veiled-to-outright misogyny and casual transphobia lmao
  
  I promise I'm not stalking you, I think we're just following the same journey and comment progression!
  I block/unblock .world as I appreciate the content but the drama:person ratio can get really high. It's mostly thanks to a small number of chronically online people who enjoy throwing fuel on the fire and leading a crusade to defederate and/or brigade whichever instance whenever there's a hot button topic. This seems to gather and focus otherwise aimless "not nice people", á la the man vs bear scenario.

When talking about someone, is using the commonly accepted neutral "they" allowed, or is it considered non-tolerable misgendering?
- It's fine by me, but I'm not sure how other moderators (or admins) feel about it
  
  Not personally affected, but I saw someone instantly permabanned with reason "misgendering" for a comment talking about "drag"'s behavior but using "they".
  Not warned. Not comment deleted with "please use pronoun at all times". Just bam.
  If the general stance is that reaction can be "up to the admin", that's a bit... minefield-y.
- It's a useful feature of language for 'they' to be a valid default you should always be able to fall back on.
  I don't even know who any of you are on Lemmy, and I don't care to. I'm rarely ever even paying attention to your names to begin with.
  
  This is a big part of it, to be honest. Dragonfucker eagerly takes offense when people don't use the "drag" pronoun, but most of the time users aren't even looking at handles, and just defaulting to "they" as a general-use pronoun.
- It depends on the person. If the pronouns you are using for someone is upsetting them and they make that clear, don't keep using them. If the only pronouns you can use make you uncomfortable, then simply don't interact with the person in question. And if the person in question is trolling or otherwise misbehaving, report them without doing so in a way that ignores their pronouns.
- When talking about someone, is using the commonly accepted neutral "they" allowed, or is it considered non-tolerable misgendering?
  Are you accepting that this is in fact misgendering, but still asking whether it's an acceptable form of misgendering?
  
  I am assuming it as "not adding gender to the sentence". Neutral. Leaving it out. Not misgendering. It is how people have always talked about someone when the gender is either unknown, irrelevant, or hard to assume.
  I am respecting a site or community's rule that this is not the case on their space, but it's such a deviation from the norm that I want it to be clear.
  The qualifier "non-tolerable" was clumsy. I was trying to ask if it fell more on "honest mistake, but not allowed" or "assumed to be an intentional transphobic trangression".
  
  I believe they specifically meant when you don't know the person's gender/pronouns.

Wow...looking at these comments, i realise I still have a lot to think about regarding my exact stance on all this...the fact that I have have zero irl exp in this is not helping...
- Because nobody IRL uses neo-pronouns XD
  
  I know some who do, quite a lot actually because the neutral french pronoun is a neopronoun

I did not realize that typing exclusively in third-person, and pushing something that is obviously kink-related onto internet strangers was umm... not trolling?
I feel like the troll that does this gives people who fantasize about dragons a bad name, not to mention people who use neopronouns, for various non-trolling reasons, that usually hold some kind of personal meaning. Expression is complicated, but holy goddamn bollucks, third-person shitposting to try to bait people who didn't read a bio into "misgendering" bans is asinine and takes validity from people who could use it. I don't see how any mods have gone along with this "muh third-person antagonistic ranting means victimhood" shit.
Whatever tho, I guess every individual user is supposed to independently block an asshat who tells people to commit suicide, because they are so very super-special.... I hope this place doesn't get tossed into dot world over this, ugh.
- Whatever tho, I guess every individual user is supposed to independently block an asshat who tells people to commit suicide,
  The message clearly and categorically states the rules still apply, and that behaviour is what gets actioned. Literally nothing about the post says that someone using neopronouns is otherwise exempt from the rules. If someone is telling someone to kill themselves, report it or DM it to a community mod.
  
  So, transphobic trolling is ok? Shitting on neopronouns and hiding behind dumbfuck ironic bullshit in third-person is fine? Just no telling people to kill themselves, because that gets a temporary ban...
  I'm not here to re-hash the most obvious shit that has already been reported by others and deleted by mods. It's fine tho, have fun defending a troll, and feeding them by taking what they say (in third goddamn person) seriously, at the detriment to everyone else.

Opinions aside, thanks for clarifying this.

Most of the time I don't ask people their pronouns in public I just tend to use "they/them" until I overhear someone saying their actual pronouns then'll use them.
As for here on Lemmy I just look at their pronouns in the bio or just don't use pronouns at all in my comments.
I respect everyone and if I make a mistake that's okay and I'll refer to them with the correct pronouns.

Thank fuck my native language doesn’t have gendered pronouns. I just use they for everything, much simpler that way.

Are 'nounself' style neopronouns included here?
- Like drag?
  
  Apparently they are included, by the actions of the admins in the linked thread.

Neopronouns are fine, but not all neopronouns are part of gender identity. Not all identity expressions are gender related.
The entire spectrum of gender has a biological basis, and anything which doesn’t have a biological basis is an expression of identity, which is also valid, but not always related to gender. Like, no one can get a medical cocktail to transform into a dragon or cat. Please don’t confuse gender identity with other types of identity expressions.
- well see i belive in my brain (biological) that im kitty so therefore im still valid in ur terms :3
  (also gender can be independant from anything biological meows)
  
  I think the binary form of gender is a social construct, but the entire spectrum of gender identity has a biological basis because you can change aspects of people’s gender by affecting them on a physiological basis, like with hormones etc. Identity expression isn’t always related to gender or biology, I think, and it doesn’t have to be.
  Oh, to be clear, just because you believe in something doesn’t mean it has the same biological implications as gender identity. I hope I am not being rude or anything :3
  And yes, you’re a good kitty, Max head pat.

Great! Definitely have my respect for standing up to gatekeeping. Gatekeeping has no place in a trans community. Be who you want. Anyone telling you you can't should be luigi'd to somewhere more fitting them. Allies not enemies.

65 comments