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1mo ago

Neopronouns are not trolling

I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.

So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.

I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.

This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.

247 comments

Unless someones pronouns are in their username they're getting a "they" from me. Nothing against xe/xim/xir but i ain't checking every profile of every person I debate about whether Sonic would be tempted or double tempted by the One Ring.
- i always just use they/them as a default until i know the correct pronouns because it's the most universally genetic anyway :3
  
  Personally I use they/them until I get corrected on it. It's my default.
  It being my default of course means that a lot of the time I'll keep using it even after being corrected. That's not from a position of intolerance though, it's from a position of habit.
  And also given the amount of people I engage with online I'm not going to remember every person I interact with, especially given how sparsely I actually respond to people and my response time to people.
  Basically y'all are a field of ever changing faces I'll likely never see again let alone IRL, I'm going to stick to they/them for 99% of our interactions.
  
  what about, it? though a issue would be sexism as people could use it to call women objects.
- That’s a fair problem, Lemmy and the mobile apps need a feature where you can see peoples pronouns beside their names. Voyager doesn’t even let me see anything besides someones username and instance, even on the profile page so I can’t even look for their pronouns even if I wanted
  
  We got names for that. It is hard adjusting to nonbinary people in a language that does not support nongendered pronouns but names and nicknames are sociacialy accepted and carry the same respect as a correct pronoun.
  
  You could use Voyager's user tagging feature to tag people with their pronouns
- Hold on, I'm she/they.
  Now can we discuss this FASCINATING topic??? Do we think the one ring would hold multiple ring value? Would Sonic turn invisible or just absorb it? How does the ring affect sonic if it is absorbed? What happens if he collects 100 One Rings? I have so many questions.
  
  (adorable little Timmy voice) "He would turn into Sonic dot E X E and kill us all!!"
  
  What about would happen if the rings forged for man, dwarves, and elves (19 in all) were collected by Sonic along with the One Ring? Sonic could be like... a super ring wraith.
  Then we put the Chaos Emeralds in the mix, and things get extra spicy.
  
  Is the One Ring even categorically different from power rings?
- blahaj.zone is better about it, but much of Lemmy even just defaults to "he"
- This is the only reasonable way to handle this situation. I'm all about making sure people are comfortable, but making-up words and then getting offended when people don't use them properly is bonkers. I truly don't mean to offend anyone, but this is getting out of hand.

I love how this gets posted for community members, in a meta community, talking about how to engage with our space to not get banned, and then every loser from all comes in here like "umm actually you can't police my speech and umm pronoun bad" and promptly gets banned for being transphobic and breaking the rules that this post said will be enforced.
the mods and admins are doing a good job here, thanks for all your hard work you put in to make one of my favorite spaces on the internet as wonderful as it is.
- Won't somebody think of the transphobic cishet men?
  They're the real oppressed!
  
  pet pet
- Ada is legit one of the best moderators I've seen in my 25 years on the internet.
- Like moths to a light bulb, it would be funny if the banned folks' behavior wasn't steeped in hatred
- The admin's chosen examples, in this thread, include demanding people use a slur, if that's what some rando insists you insert, instead of the "they" that should work for any human being.
  It's really fucking difficult to argue 'that absolutist or-else seems like a poor idea' without sounding wishy-washy - or catching a boot in the ass.
  
  look the whole point of this thread is that if you didn't want to respect somebody's pronouns then just don't interact with them or report them if you think they are genuinely trolling, not encourage them. if you don't do that so your giving trolls what they want and hurting trans people who do identify with those pronouns.

Coskiis' stance on pronouns is very simple. Coskii will respect anyones pronouns up until those pronouns are more complicated than a beings name. At which point Coskii uses the beings name instead of any pronouns. Pronouns are meant to be a conversational shortcut. If a shortcut is not being made, Coskii does not feel the need to use pronouns.
Neopronouns are (generally) not more complicated than a beings name. Exceptions do exist.
Writing a message without using pronouns for explicit understanding of how and why pronouns exist in English in the first place, including personal pronouns, is certainly a mood. The flow of sentences is somewhere between legal and caveman. Not using pronouns leaves no wiggle room for any interpretation on the subject being discussed, however the lack of personal pronouns means Coskii must always refer to Coskii as Coskii. Thank goodness Coskii is not a terribly long name.
- questopm for coskii: i has 3 character name, would coskii pick to using just max or he hims orboth meows? a lso woild coskii use they thems for max ? (like if didnt know max preferres hehims)
  
  For Max, I would use he/hims, they/thems, or whatever other pronouns Max would prefer. Max is a shortcut in and of itself. Maxwell, Maximilian, Maxine, or Maximus can all be Max.
  If Max were to decide that Maxs' pronouns were Maxillaries/Maximilleficint, I would at that point likely just refer to Max as Max. As at that point I feel that what has been made are no longer pronouns, but situational proper nouns.
  By a much more extreme example, if Max has a flowchart/spreadsheet of pronouns that are time/date sensative, such as changing pronouns according to the current astrological sign + day of the week/phase of the moon, Max is being called Max.

i don't get why its so hard for people to use the block function and move on, i was sick of hearing about dragonfucker the second i saw dragonfucker crying victim in every thread on my feed. other comments have outlined my feelings on neopronouns so i wont get knto that
it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it, so i used the block function because it was exhausting to look at. shouldn't be more complicated than that
- this exactly, there are already rules against trolling, and for the trolls who haven't tipped their hand yet, the block button works great; one reason for this kind of trolling can be to incite division that gatekeeping rules would create - blocking a troll until they show their hand feels like a small price to pay to avoid that, and I'm proud of admins that are wise enough to understand this

If we have to have gender-specific pronouns, sure. While well-intentioned, that approach will never be perfect, it’s STILL categorising people into smaller and smaller groupings in contexts where categorisation is unnecessary. We’re jumping through linguistic loops so complicated that we need cue-cards for, when we could just use gender-neutral pronouns universally.
Bespoke pronouns are also only a “solution” in English, which (mostly) has no gender-specific suffixes for nouns. In the spirit of inclusivity German has recently misguidedly settled on just repeating the noun with male and female suffixes, “I have to go to the hairdresser or hairdresseress”. Unarguably more quantitatively inclusive, this grammatical monstrosity is also more severely excluding people that fit in neither category. The answer isn’t “everyone should additionally specify their own suffixes so we can list off more variations” but rather to stop caring what gender cuts your hair altogether. Hairdresser can be a gender-neutral word. Here’s to them.

My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren't genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general. Kind of an extension of the "one joke" conservatives have ("hurr durr, I identify as an attack helicopter").
Obviously I can't say for sure that's what is happening, but I've read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn't being genuine.
I personally err on the side of caution, so I'd never purposely insult this person by calling them "him" or "her," but they'll remain a "they" to me, as that is still gender-agnostic not offensive to someone with "neopronouns" (as far as I understand it).
- I know a few neopronoun users and some are fine with they/them, some are just worn down into accepting they/them, and some really do not like they/them
- My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren't genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people
  Ok, lets say that this happens.
  That doesn't mean that the correct response is to invalidate neopronouns. If that's literally the goal of a troll, then saying "You're a troll, I'm not going to use your pronouns" is literally what they want.
  But I will also suggest you read up on Isabel Fall, to see why even the attack helicopter pronoun meme isn't always a troll, and how the community itself can become harmful to its own members when it turns on them
- It doesn't really matter what you think about the person, the point is to take their word for it. If making people accept neopronouns is trolling then it's not a bad thing and I am personally not upset by it. If that did somehow "discredit" me I would argue that it only reflects badly on those who think my acceptance of it is bad, they are using it as a weak excuse to attack me.
  Using they may be considered misgendering if you know that that person doesn't also go by they, neo-pronouns or otherwise.
  
  It makes a mockery of real gender issues. I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders. What I'm not sure I support is indulging people's possible mental illness by pretending it's ok that they believe they're a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
  I'm really not trying to sound callous or offend anyone, but that's just not the same thing and I don't believe it should be treated with the same level of seriousness as actual gender fluidity.
  We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone's gender to be "unicorn." Because unicorns aren't real, and even if they were, they are not on the human gender spectrum.
  I'm sure everyone will tell me how I'm wrong but whatever. This has nothing to do with transphobia. The opposite, in fact.
  When people on the left legitimize these people's obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community. It legitimizes all of those stupid, "litter boxes in schools" things in many people's minds. It does more harm than good.
  
  The reason people say these one or two users are trolling is not because of their pronouns. It's because they demand accommodations that go well beyond pronouns and most of their posts are playing the victim.
  
  In other words, the correct response to someone demanding you call them what is almost certainly a troll neopronouns is to block them. Or, the equivalent in the real world is, "I'm not going to misgender you. I'm going to tell you to fuck off and never talk to me again. If that really is your gender, I guess I don't like associating with people of that gender. Goodbye."
- What's the worst thing that will happen if an obviously moronic masculine-presenting person says "hurr durr my pronouns are balls/sack" and you do what they ask and use those pronouns? Will they play along? Will they be offended? What's a desirable outcome? What's an undesirable outcome?
  
  I was specifically talking about a user here who refers to themselves as a dragon, speaks in the third person calling themselves a dragon each sentence, insists that everyone they interact with on here also refers to them that way (also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.
  I wouldn't say I have a problem with the concept of neopronouns as a whole, though that's more because I just haven't thought enough about it to have an informed opinion.
  But, to answer your question with respect to the behavior of the user I was referring to:
  For transphobic people who are pushing an anti-trans agenda to gullible idiots who are already, at the very least, borderline homophobic, it legitimizes all of those "libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids' schools!" trans panic, bullshit.
  It shows that there are people on the left who are willing to take it a few steps too far, and indulge in people's possible mental illness where they believe their gender is a non-existent, fantasy creature. Something that's literally not possible as it is not on the human gender spectrum. At least not as I understand it.
  I'm sure people will tell me how I'm wrong.

I don't care for neopronouns, but it also doesn't matter what I think. If it's REALLY a problem for me, like that person who's gender identity is divinity and the pronouns that person uses are capitalized, I just won't refer to that person. (Seriously, that does bother me, not that person's gender in general but referring to anyone, fictional or not, Like This.)
- I see that case as an anomalous one because the tension I personally have there is: a person may be a god, but that doesn't make that person my god, and I shouldn't be required to behave worshipfully towards a god I don't follow. I may choose to follow other religions' conventions around how they refer to their gods and/or prophets in some contexts, but the idea of not having a choice in matters of religion makes me deeply uncomfortable. Respect between equals, which is what using a person's pronouns generally is, should be automatic, but deference to authority should be earned in my book.
  
  I don't think using someone's preferred pronoun capitalisation is a worship thing. On My antirealist discord server, capitalised pronouns are the default. If you want lowercase pronouns, you have to pick a role that says so.
  I've met people who thought capitalised pronouns were a matter of religion. But I've also met people who think "he" and "she" pronouns are a matter of religion. They think their gender identities are handed down to them by Elohim, and refusing to use someone's god-given pronouns is a form of disrespect against their god. They say "My god doesn't make mistakes", and think their religious beliefs are a reason to misgender people. I think that if treating people decently means decoupling pronouns from religion, then everyone should decouple pronouns from religion.
- Your last point raises a good question.
  Mods, if someone says Their pronouns are supposed to be capitalised, will we be called for it if we don't capitalise Them?
  
  Me omw to make all of my pronouns the full transcript of the Bee Movie
  Actually, would that be covered under this rule? Like I would be trolling if I did that, but under a true all-acceptance policy you couldn't selectively not use those pronouns

Neopronouns are valid as hell and all these people who refuse to acknowledge that fact are by definition transphobic.
You cannot claim to support trans people while declaring a subgroup to be invalid because you think they're not doing it the right way. You are not an ally unless you support all trans people, people who use neopronouns are not the problem, you are.
Policing trans people makes you a transphobe.

I've spent what feels like half an hour scrolling through comment threads to figure out what the hell happened to lead to this. Is there some kind of explainer somewhere? Is there a key thread that I missed somehow? Should I even be asking?
- There's a user called dragonfucker whose gender is apparently "dragonfucker", who insists on the neopronoun "drag", and who eagerly takes offense whenever misgendered, whether the misgendering was intentional or not. Some people understandably believe this user is a troll.
  
  Dragon Rider, actually, not dragonfucker. And drag isn't mad that you misremembered.
  
  I haven't seen them take offense very often
  
  Except they don't eagerly take offense to being mispronouned. Most of the time, when I've seen it, they don't even say anything.
- A user called drag can sometimes rub people the wrong way. Sometimes it's drag's actions. Sometimes it's the fact drag refers to dragself with pronouns using various permutations of drag.
  The former is a valid reason for contention. The latter isn't.
  
  ~~I always thought Drag was speaking in the third person. Did I misunderstand something?~~ Edit: yes, I did
- This is more of a public service announcement style of post than a deeply intentioned 'after incident response' post.
  While I'm sure there have been plenty of incidents based on some of the other comments, there hasn't been some singular massive event to cause this to happen. If anything it's more of a reminder that one purpose of blahaj.zone is for inclusivity and acceptance. Excluding people because of some indirect words is not the goal.
  
  Thanks for clarifying.

i bite my thumb at anyone who complains about drag. the most drag has ever done is correct people and VERY OCCASIONALLY call out when someone is actively belligerent about it.
reckon how folks treat our dearest dragonfucker is pretty good insight into how they’d react to myriad other similar social situations. this heavily contributes to why i have very little patience for folks “just asking (bad faith) questions” about it.
- Literally all of this drama can be avoided, if showing a little kindness didn't involve killing.
  
  Literally all of this drama can be avoided, if showing a little kindness didn't involve killing.
  Can you elaborate on that? I'm not getting it.

Your intentions are valiant. Can I ask for clarification with one section to ensure I don’t error within this instance’s rules?
A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling.
We’ve probably all seen the “one joke” of transphobes/nonbinaryphobes attempting a parody of preferred pronouns/neopronouns by choosing arbitrary or intentionally harmful terms. This link contains some examples of what I’m referring to:
Content warning: transphobia/nonbinaryphobia/misgendering, annoying visual glitch
In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise? As an example from the linked video, if I refer to Ted Cruz on this instance, must I use the neopronouns kiss/my/ass to be within the rules? (assuming Ted Cruz had yet to state a revision of pronouns)
In a more extreme case, let’s say somebody named User1 genuinely uses [neopronoun 1]/[neopronoun 2]/[neopronoun 3], which we understand to be totally fine. If a troll account named User2 joined this instance with undisclosed malicious intent and stated that their pronouns were [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real], should the users/admins/mods each take that all on face value and refer to User2 with [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real]?
In short, do the rules require that we refer to someone by the neopronouns that they state even if the surrounding context strongly suggests that they are a transphobic/nonbinaryphobic troll and that their statement of their pronouns is disingenuous and intended to be a harmful ridicule to transgender and nonbinary people?
When I see that somebody uses neopronouns and they appear to be in earnest, I respect and adhere to that and I appreciate that you do too. I do worry that there may arise some trolls who misuse our benevolent intentions and who attempt to mock and insult us by taking advantage of generous good faith and ultimately make things worse for all of us. Thanks for taking the time to address this and watching out for everybody.
- You don't need to use any pronouns to block and report.
  
  Exactly this
- In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise?
  If that person is trolling, then report their behaviour, not their pronouns. The contextual behaviour you refer to is the real issue, and what will get them banned. And don't interact with them in the mean time. If their goal is invalidating the idea of neopronouns, the correct response isn't for you to invalidate the use of neopronouns as a result of their actions.
  But even "attack helicopter" and the like... If you're not familiar with it, look up the story of Isabel Fall. She was almost driven to suicide, she changed her name, and may even have detransitioned as a result of the fallout she received from a story she wrote about the attack helicopter pronouns. Her intentions were good, it was an honest act of reclamation, but people were so upset at the mere idea of her story, that her own community turned on her. Her story looked like the story a troll might have written. But critically, it wasn't a story written by a troll, it was a story written by a trans person trying to find power in a slur that had been levelled against her community.
  So until I can sense peoples intentions with unerring accuracy, the only thing we can act on is actions. And using neopronouns, even unusual and challenging ones, isn't a trolling action by itself. If someone with challenging neopronouns is trolling, their actions will make that clear, independent of their pronouns.
  
  The contextual behaviour you refer to is the real issue, and what will get them banned. If someone with challenging neopronouns is trolling, their actions will make that clear, independent of their pronouns.
  Here are 3 users’ comments just on this post concerning the contextual behavior of a specific user whom I presume to be the impetus of this whole discussion. I obviously cannot source other comments that may have been deleted or removed:
  “it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it”
  “My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general… I’ve read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn’t being genuine.” Continued “(also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.”
  “The reason people say these one or two users are trolling is not because of their pronouns. It’s because they demand accommodations that go well beyond pronouns and most of their posts are playing the victim.”
  And here are 10 modlog remarks by your instance’s mods pertaining to the contextual behavior of the same user. There are additional modlog remarks by mods of other instances to similar effect. Please do take a look through them all:
  2x: Banned: reason: Trolling
  Banned: reason: history of misgendering and encouraging suicide
  4x Banned: reason: Encouraging suicide, bad faith accusations, moderator harassment. Not Appealable
  Banned: reason: encouraging suicide
  Banned: reason: History of encouraging suicide
  Removed Comment: reason: Advocating violence, encouraging suicide
  Many users and mods alike believe that the user’s actions have made it clear that they are trolling and intend harm upon the community, yet they remain unbanned (edit: clarification: unbanned from the instance). As admin, have you scrutinized your users’ and mods’ listed concerns over this apparent repeat offender prior to now? Does the admin team have a direct line for users to report bad actor users and their actions? I do not expect you to “sense peoples intentions with unerring accuracy”, but do you distrust the acuity of your userbase and modteams over and over again? If the user is a troll, you are doing exactly what they want you to do; if the user is not a troll, many people have taken measures to avoid hostility from them. Even if this user were genuine with their gender expression/identity/etc., is the rest of their behavior acceptable and undeserving of an instance ban?
  You will get trolls on this instance. You will get trolls anywhere online. It’s naïve to assume genuineness as the default online; don’t wait for a troll to break character. If you want this instance to be hospitable and to live up to the protectiveness, the anti-bigotry, the empathy, and the inclusion that it prides itself on, the instance needs admins who take less iffiness to guess when a user is trying to take them for a ride.
  I had already blocked this user who knows how long ago. Their behavior doesn’t affect me anymore. I’m also not part of a demographic that needs this instance. Go ahead and ban me for speaking out for those who do need this instance. But this user —and any other users whom the admin team shies away from calling trolls— they will affect the new people who come to this instance who do need a safe place, and those new users will be deterred from here by the hostility and unfettered trolls that are tolerated.

For everyone confused about neopronouns I would like you to consider what we could and could not do about them.
We could:
Not respect them and let people bully neopronoun users
Respect them and not let people bully neopronoun users
Doesn't really matter if you want to use the pronouns or not, clearly respecting neopronouns is the only good way to deal with the situation unless you want to give people free reign to just talk down to, misgender, and harass a group of users.

Love this, Ada. So nice to see another instance run by caring, respectful folk. Love from beehaw!
Before I curse my worst enemy I will ask their pronouns. Their right to identity is not based on my respect for them.

Thank you. it is mindboggling that supposed trans allies can tell people they aren't valid without seeing their hypocrisy.

Lots of people in here who don't get pronouns or trans people, for those I recommend this article:
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/so-you-found-out-youre-agender-because-you-don-t-understand-trans-people-886fdee6f178
There's a very real chance you guys might be agender cis, which is super fascinating because it's barely looked into, due to how agender cis people usually don't even know that their experience isn't universal.
- I was interested until I saw the author and it clicked. Must be a broken clock situation.
  
  Just because someone might not have the same opinions as you, or even in some cases opinions you consider dead wrong it doesn't mean they are always wrong.
  Think of political parties, in one case a party you usually align yourself with makes a terrible decision, and in another case a party you hate makes a decision you would wholeheartedly support. Does that mean your prior preferred party is suddenly on the same level as your hated party? Depends, of course, but we can't deny that we can't expect everyone to share the exact same values as us. Variety is the spice of life, and sometimes even someone we consider to be right/wrong will surprise us in negative or positive ways.
  
  I've only read a handful of Their articles, but all the ones I've read seem solid. Can I ask what your problem is with Them?
- I never saw that article before but I do like it, I have noticed that a lot of people who I know that identify as cisgender don't seem to have an internal sense of gender or pay much mind to gender but I didn't think anyone else thought that too. It's nice to see my idea isn't as unpopular as I initially thought.
- What a great article
  
  Haha, look who it is. Love the article, a few of my friends have realized they also might be agender from it.
  
  It really is, I thought I was one of the only people to think that Agender might be really common but just hidden because many people who don't feel gender can blend in as cis or not even know they're Agender. Obviously we'll probably never really know for sure but I do think it's likely that many of the people out there who don't feel gender or don't think about gender are very likely Agender.
  I also saw a meme a while back that said animals are Agender because they don't give so much thought to gender the way humans do.
- Thanks for sharing this. As an older person working to sort out their gender identity later on in life it’s nice to have more ideas to consider.
  I’ve wondered if gender identity is a bit like our other senses where we can practice and get better at discerning the signals we’ve always been receiving, but haven’t always known what they mean.
  How much is trainable and how much is innate.
  Anyway thanks again for sharing this.
  
  It sure is trainable to some extent. I didn't think I suffered from gender dysphoria when I first realised I was trans. I was only able to connect with gender euphoria to realise My identity. But after I experimented with My gender and tried on some new pronouns and self-images, I realised I hated being a male. I was miserable, but I wasn't able to see My misery, because I thought it was just life. It's like when someone with tinnitus doesn't even realise they have it, because they've forgotten what silence sounds like. When I started thinking of Myself as trans, I experienced that metaphorical silence, and then I could hear the metaphorical ringing that was My dysphoria.

yo only vaguely related, but pugjesus is REALLY being an asshole about drag. i figured this is a safe place to vent lmao
that powertrippinbastards community gets worse every time i dip my head in, i swear
- Lemmy seems to be getting worse unfortunately :\
  
  thanks for being around, ada. the work you do is greatly appreciated, even if it’s not readily apparent all the time.
  imo @MossyFeathers said it best in an edit they made to this comment, quoted for visibility:
  the fucking entitlement of cis people telling trans people how to run their spaces is sickening. I thought Lemmy was supposed to be fairly progressive, yet once again I’m being shown that cis people believe they deserve a voice in something that has nothing to do with them. You don’t get to call yourself an ally when you question someone’s validity.
  \
  \ You disgust me.
  
  Hi Ada, I stepped in to lock the post and put a stop to the drama, but maybe I should have acted sooner. Our admins have got no problem with respecting drag's pronouns or anyone else's. The social conservatives seem emboldened since Trump was re-elected imo. It sucks.
- To be fair, pugjesus is an asshole about a lot of things, not just drag.
  /s
  I took a look and this is their normal behavior: just the topic du jour that they can use to whip up drama.
  
  i really oughta block that whole comm. there’s something to be said for the value of dissenting opinions, but until they raise a point that isn’t “weird pronouns bad” there’s not a lot there for anyone outside the echo chamber.
  i’m starting to think even trying to argue the logic is just an exercise in validating their bullshit when your comments all get dogpiled.

As always Ada, eloquently put ♥️♥️ thank you!

Without ever making a post on the Lemmy, I have donated to this instance every month for well over a year, amounting to hundreds. Your principled moderation is why I am here. I will forever be grateful for the space you've given us

Holy shit this thread has become a prime example of why we love you so much Ada, I've literally never seen a safer place on the internet before and I'm including my own community I run outside of lemmy.
Endlessly defending trans people and banning all those who refuse to accept basic rules, it's incredible although disturbing seeing how many transphobes have come out of the woodwork.

Very true. I do hope that the one or two trolls who instigated this post stop getting free rein to start drama. Pronouns should be respected, narcissism should not.
- You probably don't know this, but hatred of narcissism is historically related to conservative social philosophy. https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/why-reactionaries-hate-pride-and-narcissists-938d39261f13
  
  I've had to deal with a lot of narcissistic people in my life, I really don't like narcissists.
  There's a big difference between pride and narcissism. Though they can easily go hand I'm hand.

As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don't want to do the wrong thing.
I usually default to "they" unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.
Side question, I'm neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn't putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
- is there a definitive list of pronouns?
  No. In the same way there’s no defintive list of genders, it would be virtually impossible to catelog every pronoun, or every single name. So it’s important to be careful because you could always come across a new pronoun that hasn’t been written down somewhere yet. But! That doesn’t mean people haven’t tried :) https://pronouns.page/ is a helpful resource that covers multiple languages.
  I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told
  This is a good strategy :)
  once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts
  This is really sadly only an issue online, where trolls and generally just unkind people do pose a real threat. Always respect people’s requested pronouns, but if you do suspect something shady, @SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone wrote out a handy guide here https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/12169135
  how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
  Yes, it often does. :( Being on Blahaj.Zone is a good start to finding respite from the constant harassment, but even here there are problems as the need for this post from Ada shows.
- You sound like you've got the right idea and a good handle on things. Neopronouns are generally a very case-by-case thing and not at all common, people who use them generally will (politely and without fuss) let you know, and many neopronoun-users (not all but many) also accept they/them. It's not a thing that comes up a lot, and personally I think people tend to give the concept too much mental bandwidth. The important thing is to be respectful of each individual, if you're not actively being a dickhead you probably don't have too much to worry about on that front.
- is there a definitive list of pronouns
  Not really, there are lists of the more well known ones. But they absolutely are not definitive. Much like gender, prounons are a social construct. It's just a quickie handhold to communicate how that particular person sees themselves. They're essentially stereotypes of stereotypes that mold and change over time. Which is why what's considered women's work (cooking) and men's work (grilling) have shifted over time. Redneck, goth, jock & etc are all different forms of gender because it loosely describes how that person presents to the world. So a new gender/prounons is born, valid and inherently correct the moment someone says it. Gender is a social performance and there is no way to do it wrong.
  Wouldn't putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
  When I was in the early days of my transition, I literally asked the same thing! Good question! You're right, to put your new name/prounons into your name is inherently sorta doxxing yourself. You're unfortunately entirely correct that it's a risk depending on where you live. However the answer is also unfortunate and that's its worth the risk to most people. All of our situations are different, but without question there are trans folk, out or closeted, that do not get to use their chosen name/prounons in real life. If they don't use it online, the they effectively don't get to be correctly identified in any part or their life. It's out of desperation to be validated in some way. It's a bummer, but I get it. I'm lucky and privileged enough to be out full time, so I don't use my name online. But I'm absolutely not gonna judge how another person gets through the day.

How Can Pronous Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real? /s
But actually, s/he & they are pronouns I'll use in everyday speech. Anything else and I tend to favor a person's name; it's just... You know, easier to facilitate a conversation that way.
Edit: oh I see this is from blåhaj. Nvm. I stand by my comment but I see I'm not the target audience.

Thank you, Ada. I truly wish it had not come to this, but making this post is one of a very few good choices you could make in such an awfully difficult situation. I respect your vision and commitment for the space you want to create here and I hope it works out for the best.

My problem is the intense amount of trolls and the harm that they've caused. Ive seen this instance devolve into trolls, counter trolls (trolls), alt accounts (trolls), mods (myself included) not being able to keep up, and admins not doing enough (imo).
- The alternative, is a queer instance that is built from the ground up with gatekeeping baked in to its core. You may be ok with that. I am not. This instance will never be that.
- I'm in agreement with this, but I think people should complain about the trolling behavior and the abusive behavior, and not about the pronouns, because the trolling and abusive behavior is the real problem. Not people using different pronouns or having non-standard identities.
- and admins not doing enough
  perhaps there needs to be more admins or something dunno just a thought cough
  
  I completely agree

My only problem is when i use singular they them for someone and they have a problem with it. I speak hungarian natively which has no grammatical gender nor gendered pronouns and it makes so much more sense. The whole thing about gender neutral language doesnt exist. But what makes me mad is that other languages that have genders solved it while english is still messing around and every time i use singular they or dude/guy as gender neutral, someone with neopronouns or a right winger has to point out how im incorrect. This is of course not pointed at those who use neopronouns, just as someone who speaks a language where pronouns dont matter it feels kinda useless.
- You're allowed to make mistakes and find it difficult. You're not allowed to decide that you're not even going to try. If you are at that point, your options are to get it right, or to not engage with the person in question.

100%.
You don't get to decide if another person's identity is valid or not. That's literally just transphobia, and perpetuating that inside our own community is truscum behavior. An individual person has the final word on who they are, what they're called and how to correctly refer to them.

Very good post, I agree with everything said.
However I have a followup issue, I use Voyager primarily for Lemmy. I don't have any way to see bios (to my knowledge) in the app, so therefore I cannot see pronouns unless they are in someone's username. I have one of the "user tags" set up for drag specifically and will for any other neopronouns needed, but that requires someone correcting me before I can create it.
My question is, is there a way that this issue can be overcome? Id prefer to not move apps if it's possible as i like Voyagers UI but I will if I must.
Also, this is not really related, but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj? I heard that there was some drama but I can't figure out anything other than the NCD@SJW community mod having beef with blahaj, but not anything between the SJW instance itself.
- The rule isn't "Get peoples pronouns correct 100% of the time, never make mistakes, or get banned". It's "Respect peoples pronouns"
  You're allowed to make mistakes. You're allowed to not know. What you're not allowed to do is invalidate and erase the pronouns of people who have made them clear.
  but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj
  It's news to me!
  
  ah I see. Thanks for the reply!
  It's news to me!
  Well, in that case I assume the 'drama' was the issue from noncredibledefense and someone just got that and ShitJustWorks confused lol
- This?
  
  lol, I fear this will happen more and more often because of how complicated federation is and how many don't understand it.

take note bluesky this is how to build trust and safety 💙
and it's another reason why i love it here 💞

My interactions with people complaining about this rule led me to delete my .world account and dust this one off from way back when I first joined Lemmy and was trying to figure things out. Regardless of the behavior of a person, I staunchly will never purposefully misgender them/use the wrong pronouns. If I do it to someone else, then I'm telling the world that it's okay to dismiss anyone's identity given the right justification. And that's patently wrong and shitty.
I'd rather be part of an instance that protects identity, that is made for minorities and those who are often abused by the heteronormative world. Thank you for enforcing this and making a space where I can feel safe as a trans woman.