how do you guys use privacy focused messaging alternatives like Signal or Matrix?
I can’t use them because I can’t convince anybody to switch with me. I talk to most people on discord and I’d rather move to using Matrix, but I can’t convince any of my friends or family or anyone I know to use anything else.
I bought everyone in my family a drink to get them to use Signal. Worked great and we're still on it.
Don't bother trying to sell people on privacy etc, for the most part. Show them Giphy integration, stickers, Stories, etc and show them that it's fun. Signal has done great work there, in making it "noob-friendly"
The number of times my family complains about signal not having polls…
Seems like a lot of people want that too, so hopefully they'll add it soon
I wish it had tenor instead. Giphy seems to really lack content, I never find what I’m searching for
I just told everybody that I only reply on Threema and don't use anything else.
My thought process was - if they can't be arsed to use another app (which is an extremely effortless task to do) then they are probably not worth staying in contact with.
The 3 people that were most important in my life at that point got the app immediately.
After over a decade with threema I now have over 40 contacts there, mostly friends, some colleagues, multiple hobby centric groups etc.
I guess just start and don't compromise and be patient
This is pretty much exactly what I did. I said I will be using signal, and if you want to stay in contact with me, that's how you will do it, because I will not reply to anything else.
Same. Works perfectly with family
I just told everybody that I only reply on Threema
if they can't be arsed to use another app (which is an extremely effortless task to do) then they are probably not worth staying in contact with
So if someone said you have to use their messagee of choice - Signal, Whatsapp, Matrix, FB Messager, Discord - you'd have no problem meeting them there because it's effortless, yeah?
You left out two important real world aspects from your thought experiment.
Me too. My Fam is on Signal now.
Become unavailable on non-private messengers. Explain your reasons if asked, but stay stubborn. (And yes, it will turn out that a subset of people you know don't give a shit about staying in contact with you.)
Don't cut them off. Don't cut off your influence. Delay your replies and show why. https://lemmy.world/post/21620691
I'm running several opensource alternatives for clients (rocketchat, prosody, matrix) and I've transitioned privately from telegram and XMPP to matrix. the pushback from users is immense, they find every possible reason and excuse to stick with the messengers they're used to and use "the new stuff" for the bare minimum.
privately it's easy easier, that's the only way you can get ahold of me, so if you need/want me, that's where I am at. for a short while tried to make it work with signal, but a) the phone number thing is a deal breaker (usernames get me only halfway there) and b) I switch and use multiple devices often and that thing is downright hostile towards people who own/use > 2 devices.
bear in mind, I'm in a dictatorial position. they have to do what I say and even with that, it's an uphill battle. it doesn't help that the stuff they're now forced to use has subpar to downright dogshit UX.
the new, shiny, superawesome, superfast element x... is crap. I thought Signal was crap - this is another level. I don't mean for me, it's crap from the point of casual users, they are coming from the super polished world of telegram and imessage and twitter and friends and everything about this is off-putting. a lot of them need help setting this up, especially if it's a multi-device scenario.
the immediate future looks bleak and I don't see an important development on the horizon that would change any of this. but, that's how telegram spread, early adopters switching to it and promoting it and dragging normies along. let's hope for a repeat.
We use it at work, or rather I use it to text people at work I like.
Working with info sec people helps. But I explained it and had them read about it and we all got on board.
All you really can do is explain that text (sms) isn’t secure and that Signal is. And let people know you want to use it. But yes I wouldn’t try and force it that generally just annoys people.
I’ve tried Signal, Session, Matrix and SimpleX and the most convenient one is Signal. Some will refuse to switch, some, the closest people to you, will agree but probably just for you, unless they see an interest in signal themselves
For WhatsApp users: I’m saying that they leak all the contacts to Meta/Facebook and use it for advertising and tracking, + sending to the US gov because we all know they share data
For discord users: they’re a bit known for not deleting things, and backed by Tencent (if I recall correctly) they could have a reason to start using messages for advertising or similar. They’re already using game activity data to push ads (or quests as they’re called). Based in the US so also probably leaks to the gov.
But most importantantly: I just ask if they’re really to have all their messages, and especially their private messages leaked to the public in case they get hacked. Including all images sent in PMs, and having those analyzed by some other companies as well (often for CP, but still, I’m not really ok with that). Some will say that they’re not, in this case alright, go switch to Signal! Some will say they are okay with it, and tbh they’re probably lying or underestimating the risks and the impact.
Discord is alright, but please, or all sensitive messages, please switch to an encrypted messenger.
I use Matrix with bridges to Signal, WhatsApp, Telegram and Slack.
That means a single app that I can communicate on multiple platforms with.
My main conversations happen natively on Matrix but can also talk to "normies" on any of the others.
This is my dream setup for messaging as well. My problem is that I would not trust 3rd parties to host this setup, but I also have not gotten around to setting it up myself lol.
Self hosting? I just grabbed Element X Matrix client from F-Droid. I run a TrueNAS setup at home. I like this idea and will be researching it over the next few days.
Self-hosted, yes.
"I could add you to our group chat. Do you have Signal?" Just that. No questions asked. No convincing to anything. Either "Yes" or "Let me just download". Surprised honestly how many people either have it already or at least know it. Obviously might not work if you ever talk to the person 1-1, but starting a group chat only takes 2 people 😉
it takes some time but people get on signal when you explain it's advantages over whatsApp.
i had only one contact on signal when i started using it. Now almost all my contacts are on it.
it helps if people care about you and rather die than write an email 🙃
I started donating to signal and told the family that they have to use it now otherwise it would be waste of money. And everyone switched immediately.
Use whatever you use now less and less and when they ask why u late just claim ur discord app was bugging or u were "talking to ur friends" on element.
Most of my communications with friends used to be on Instagram and discord. Discord was easy to get rid of because I kept having issues with notifications on it and told my friends that and eventually they got the message when I just didn't receive/reply to anything that they sent me.
Instagram was a lot harder to get rid of. It's a lot easier to pressure people in person than online. I deleted Instagram and told my friends that they could get in touch with me on signal. Initially they were contacting me on SMS, but I used social pressure with my converted friends to get the others on it by making a group chat on signal and constantly referencing conversations on there. Fear of missing out is a big motivator to get people to switch.
Another thing that I did was empathize the features of signal over SMS. I talked about things like being able to see when people are typing, read receipts, profile pictures, stickers, etc. Obviously my main motivation is for security, but a lot of people automatically bristle and have the usual "i don't have anything to hide" talking points so it's been easier to use those other approaches. With the results of the recent US election it's been easier to convince people to make the switch, though.
It's libre software. We control it. Always link back to this. Then, you'll get them off other apps much faster.
I think there is always someone who is more willing to try it, so you start from them. Like a a techy friend or a parent who doesn't really care as long as they talk to their child. Then you can proceed by complaining to your social circle about the bad quality of the apps you currently use (like messenger). Someone will be convinced eventually. I recommend you go with signal though since element (x) apps are still not ready for commercial every day use.
I don't think OP is trying to run a business.
I think I used the word commercial wrong xd
Signal is my preference. I am not going to go around proselytizing to people about it, though. I typically respond and use text as readily. It's not my job change people. I just change what I'm willing to say openly on any other platform.
Isn't simpleX the new kid on the block? Or Session?
My issue with simplex is the centralization. Yes you can self host the servers and point the app to that. But honestly almost no one will change defaults led alone setup a whole server for it.
None of the alternatives are good enough yet. Either the UX is bad, or they are missing important features, or both in most cases. There is too much focus on privacy and encryption and not enough on being easy to use, and having the features people are used to.
Asking friends on Discord to switch to Matrix which is missing most of the features and bots they are used to is not going to work out. Same for Telegram to Signal or Matrix when they're used to group chats, channels, stickers, bots to handle moderation of new users, polls, forwarding of messages, stories, and so on.
None of the Discord 'alternatives' that come up seem to support game streaming with low latency, some don't even have voice rooms yet, they're just a text chat with a meeting room feature tacked on.
Mumble is perfectly fine for low-latency VoIP for gaming—I think it was the first to even use the Opus codec everyone uses now. Mumble uses a ton less resources than an Electron app. You will want your main chat on another protocol, but this is hardly a barrier.
When a colleague or new friend asks me to exchange contacts, I offer them the option to be part of my "main phone club" by getting Signal, Wire, or Element/Matrix.
I have a separate phone to handle SMS and Whatsapp. That covers 99% of cases, if they want something esoteric like Instagram/Snapchat/iMessage, then that's too bad. I'll turn off Airplane mode and check this secondary phone when I'm seated and comfortable like during my lunch break or when I get home. If, say, Johnny is running an event and needs me to text back whenever from 10 to 12, then I'll generally leave my phone on for that time period. If there's something sensitive but not particularly urgent, I'll save it for the next time we meet in person.
If someone wants to message me at any random time of the day without prior notice and have a quick response back, they'll have to join my main phone club.
If they don't want to use private communication then just leave it. If you want privacy you have to get used to having a less social life, at least online. That's the key really, if you want a social life, you have to start going offline, out into the real world and meet people. Get to know your neighborhood a bit or join some outdoor activity or club or something. I know it's weird at first about going outside because we're all basement computer nerds but you will find freedom without all the online surveillance when you leave your home.
JK, because next challenge is to convince everyone you meet that they should leave their phones are home and if you thought getting people to use Signal is hard you have no idea because that's just step 1.
I use XMPP whenever possible. Requires many fewer resources to run on just about any hardware & I can hand out accounts if needed.
I don’t care for the centralized or de facto centralized alternatives. I regret along with my uncle convincing family onto Signal several years ago.
Why do you regret convincing your family to use signal? Is it because you wish you got them to use xmpp instead?
I would like to lose the Android phone soon. Signal will not work without an Android/iOS primary device.
But also… Signal requires a phone number for signup where a lot of countries require a passport to get a SIM (unique identifier that is easy to track you). The service is centralized so there is no sort of self-hosting option. There really aren’t alternative clients (not counting mere forks) you can rely on (this helps with the double ratchet encryption of clients with XMPP & Matrix losing keys) unless you go the gateway/bridge route—where the Electron desktop client is pure ass cheeks. Historically they have a big gap in commit history—we can assume there was some sort of CIA/FBI plant. They refuse to use a self-hostable MQTT/XMPP/UnifiedPush option for notifications meaning that the notification data timestamps always flow thru Google & Apple servers. And I am still salty the mobile clients removed SMS support which made it so easy to recommend to family in the first place.
My best friends and I switched from WhatsApp to Signal after the period that Facebook agreed not to make changes to WhatsApp went up. Other people were just sheer annoyance
Tell them the reason they keep getting creepy ads for stuff they're talking about in the car is FB messenger.
That creeps enough people out.
I hate matrix because it’s hard to use and understand, and also most client collect a shit ton of data, which goes against all the privacy benefits
It's also not automatically end-to-end encrypted (as i understand it) so it's possible for those who aren't tech savvy to set it up wrong.
I got my family to switch to Signal a while ago after a high profile data harvesting scandal with WhatsApp. Some were looking at telegram and I showed them how that had dogshit security by just finding another high profile case.
People like to be able to send documents, bank numbers, etc. with ease. Remind them that’s not really possible with SMS or WhatsApp or whatever. (Technically Signal still is centralized and is vulnerable to shenanigans, but the fact that it’s open source and truly E2EE mitigate that. And has the least friction of all the options.)
You become impossible to text without it. This only works once, so choose well. We do WIRE, have for years.
The issue is FBM is something you can find just about everyone on. Pulling people off that is difficult. So you’ll need to incognito to yank them off.
I plead the fifth officer
Nope. I’ve given up trying to nudge people in, what we deam, the «right» direction.
If they don’t see any problem in giving away their privacy for convenience, then that’s their prerogative.
Hell, I am still unable to de-google completely myself.
Considering setting up a Matrix server for when Discord goes full entshitification. Maybe some will join then.
Its hard to move people from discord a lot of the matrix uis arent good enough yet.
Wirg signal i simply dont respond on other services for 2 days but respond instantly on signal. And make sure everyone knows it. I also have a weekly bbq and the invite goes in the signal group chat and the signal group chat alone.
Once u get enough people everyone else moves cos of fomo.
As much as I expect the down votes.... But this is why I like beeper. It's a good catch all for unsavvy folk. Easier login with having other major chatting apps. (Self hosting is available and self hosted bridges are on dock this year...)
I won't use anything other popular other than signal. There are some other cool apps like simplex behind for but I keep that for my enthusiasts out there.
People who don't want to keep in touch and still use WhatsApp despite WhatsApp using the signal protocol make me wonder how much they want to keep in touch with me and how much they understand their tools and devices.
I also wonder what other bullshit apps they use as well but won't install signal.
Luckily I have friends and family who indeed do want to stay in touch and who also recognize the implications of using questionable software. I keep them close.
You have to negotiate.
They: Do you have whatsapp?
You: No i hate that app but we can use Rehnijobuboba, heard of that?
They: No and there's no way I'm installing something I can't even speak.
You: Ok, you dont want to install that and I don't want whatsapp, lets meet halfway and use Signal together!
They: Fine.
Putting up a synapse server in the public cloud and building bridges to the apps people use. At least I get my messaging in one place
I have convinced two of my friends to join signal but we don't talk that much
My iptv dealer uses it so I have to for that
I only have a few privacy-focused friends on Signal and Matrix and I talk to them that way. I have a few friends who use my personal Nextcloud and just use Nextcloud Talk to chat with me. For all others, I still use the mainstream platforms and just take care to not post any info that I don't want public and I make sure the apps have limited info and app permissions.
I think it is tough to convince others to switch until they themselves see the need, at which point they'll start asking you for advice on what to do.
With new contacts, I'll usually ask if they have Signal first and if they don't then I don't really push it. I think just getting the name out there every once in a while is the most you can do.
Don't try convincing anyone. Make yourself visibly more available in one place over another.
you NEED to convince, by simply telling or proving
Anyone who thinks a secure messaging app is all they need to keep their communications private from government snooping is a fool. All of the end-to-end encryption in the world won't really accomplish anything when there are any number of other ways to read your screen, log keys, etc. The app just encrypts messages, what happens after that on the user's device is outside of the app's design.
Never assume any digital device is safe. Never.
This is why my preferred way of communicating is to sit in darkness and construct one-time pad ciphers which I then put in a new safe that I don't have the combination to unlock and is welded shut and dropped into the ocean. But other than that I like to use grapheneOS and matrix. I can't be sure it's 100% private, but I am 100% sure that facebook isn't private, so I'd rather use matrix.
James Cameron now knows your secrets
How is anti-libre any better lol, that’s more obscure
What does libre mean?
Libre software? Libre software means we control it.
Did you search it? Literally the first result:
Free software, libre software, ... is computer software distributed under terms that allow users to run the software for any purpose as well as to study, change, and distribute it and any adapted versions.[3][4][5][6] Free software is a matter of liberty, not price; all users are legally free to do what they want with their copies of a free software (including profiting from them) regardless of how much is paid to obtain the program.[7][2] Computer programs are deemed "free" if they give end-users (not just the developer) ultimate control over the software and, subsequently, over their devices.[5][8]
