Does anyone know why SteamOS is based on arch rather than Debian?
Just got a steam deck and immediately checked out the desktop mode, and I was somewhat surprised to see KDE and pacman as opposed to GNOME and apt, I have nothing against the former though a strong preference for the latter, anyone know why Volvo went in this direction?
For KDE, Valve found it easier to work with KDE devs than GNOME devs.
Big surprise.
Doesn't kde work on debian? I haven't used it on the desktop in ages, but that seems odd.
On second thought, they may not have the most up-to-date version. So maybe it's that.
And if steam could make a Qt client while they're at it...
Of course it does. OP asked multiple questions, this was sipposes to answer why they used KDE instead of Gnome. I personally think Arch would have the advantage of having the newewst drivers, Proton version etc. available.
But Gnome devs are notoriously hard to work with.
My hair is a bird.
Gaming support is still very much a work in progress all up and down the software stack. Stable distros like Debian tend to ship older proven versions of packages so their packaged software can be up to 18mo behind current releases. The NTSync kernel code that should improve Windows game performance isn't even scheduled for mainline merge until the 6.10 kernel window in a few weeks - that's not likely to be in a stable Debian release for a 12-18mo.
TL;DR: Gaming work is very much ongoing and Arch moves faster than Debian does. Shipping 12-18mo old versions of core software on the Steam deck would degrade performance.
It's pretty common to use debian unstable as a base. stable is not the only release that debian offers, and despite their names they tend to be more dependable than other distros idea of stable.
$ awk -v k=$(uname -r) '/^NAME=/{gsub(/^NAME=|"/, "", $0);print $0,k}' /etc/os-release
Debian GNU/Linux 6.7.12-amd64
In my experience, Debian unstable has been less stable than "pure" rolling release distributions. Basing on unstable also means you have to put up with or work around Debian's freeze periods.
stableis not the only release that debian offers,
Did you mean to say "branch" rather than "release"? Debian only releases stable. Everything else is part of the process of preparing and supporting stable.
Testing branch may work well or it may not. Its goal is to refine packages for the next stable release so it has an inherent strive towards quality, but it doesn't have a commitment to "quality now" like stable does, just to "quality eventually".
Testing's quality is highest towards the start of each release cycle when it picks up from the previous stable release and towards the end when it's getting ready to become the next stable. But the cycle is 2 years long.
As for why they adopted KDE, they probably discovered how hard it is to work with Gnome developers.
I remember in an interview talking about the Steam Deck and its controls, GabeN said (paraphrased) "What we learned from the Steam Controller is there needs to be zero learning curve. Players want to pick it up and understand it immediately."
Given that ethos, it's not difficult to understand adopting KDE over Gnome. Most of Valve's customers are coming from Windows, and KDE resembles Windows' UI, where Gnome resembles iOS after a stroke.
Games need to live closer to the bleeding edge than a lot of other software.
Also, for wine/proton, and the other customisations built into the deck, it makes sense to pick a starting point that is more built for customisation. By that I mean there was probably less things they needed to add or remove at the start.
As mentioned, it's also likely there was personal bias internally. But even that can be a valid reason as they need to be familiar/comfortable with the starting distro.
Not saying that Debian cannot do it, but doing it this way probably made valve's employees lives easier.
It was based on debian, but moved to arch.
I think they did it because honestly, arch is better for desktop-usage due to its rolling-release model.
Bugs in debian stick around forever.
I don't think that's a good point, since they make their own immutable images, so they can use whatever versions of software they want, and you don't normally get to update them with the rolling release
Yeah as an Arch user I disagree. Imo a handheld meant to be a plug and play system would hugely benefit from a stable OS with a laid back update schedule. You don't see PlayStation pushing constant updates the second BSD packages get new versions.
As others have said, Valve has their own immutable release system, so it doesn't really matter. In this case, the rolling release has even less to do with it. They likely chose Arch due to the up to date packages which benefit gaming.
All of the things others have said are excellent points, I would also like to point out that if you go to the steam hardware survey and select Linux only you'll see that Arch is the most used distro (after SteamOS), and that was also the case when the Steam Deck was announced in July 2021 https://web.archive.org/web/20220806051441/https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
And from my personal experience there's a reason for that, other than the I use Arch btw meme, despite most ports having Ubuntu in mind, and despite Ubuntu being the more user friendly distro, games just work on Arch. It's a weird thing where gaming on all of my arch machines is very painless, but gaming on the Ubuntu ones is frustrating, there's always something not right, it feels like the machine is chugging, or the driver decides not to work, or the game shows a black screen, or prime decides not today, etc, etc. I admit this is personal experience, and others might have the exact opposite, and that this is kind of biased because as a general rule people who use Arch tend to be more knowledgeable about Linux than people who use Ubuntu, but from replying on several Linux forums it's generally people with Ubuntu that have problems with games and people with Arch usually report that "it just works" for them.
Reminds me of the time I had a nvidia GPU laptop and was distro hopping like a rabbit on crack trying to find something stable. Surprisingly enough it was Arch that proved to be the most stable and what I ended up sticking to.
Yup, been using Arch for around 16 years, never had a problem with an Nvidia card and the vast majority of my GPUs were Nvidia. Every time I hear the horror stories of prime and bumblebee I really couldn't relate because everything just works for me.... A couple of years back however my company gave me a laptop with a company approved OS (Ubuntu), and while I don't know who's exactly to blame here (but I have my suspicions), I've had to use prime-select to set the OS to work always with the Nvidia GPU, otherwise external monitors work like shit.
It could be that ThinkPads are shit compared to Acer (and every other brand I've had in the past) laptops, it could be that the i7 on that laptop has a shitty GPU and can't handle the external monitors. But I'm 90% sure that if I put Arch there it would just work, and I wouldn't almost burn myself with a 99°C laptop that's constantly running a GPU that's not meant to.
the deck isn't some server that needs > 100% uptime for years. Debian is poopoo for bleeding edge game releases, especially any alpha/beta/early access stuff
[...] anyone know why Volvo went in this direction?
So noone is talking about Volvo?
Other than that, SteamOS started with Debian and switched to Arch last minute before the steam deck released.
Volvo probably trying to cast off their reputation for being "safe ang boring" and take on a more edgy image.
Ditching Internal combustion in favour of steam power is also a major shift for them.
Rolling release, quicker updates for gaming, and pacman is an extremely fast package manager, which is why OpenSUSE Tumbleweed wasn't chosen. KDE probably because touch screen works better on it and maybe they found switching between desktop and big picture mode to be a better transition
TW also has the issue of having 'controversial' software like the media codecs, etc not being included OOTB due to licensing concerns.
In early Steam Deck showcase videos there were talks with Valve guys like Lawrence Yang, and IIRC they simply said that it is easier for them to build the system that way, not that they couldn’t continue using Debian.
I think the reason for that might be that Debian has pretty strict package and dependency policies and sometimes it’s not easy to put cutting edge solutions on top of the „stable” base, so they would end-up using unstable/sid anyway, which still isn’t ideal as there is some freezing happening every now and then. Also Debian packaging system feels quite dated and strict comparing to PKGBUILD format, and it’s simply easier to build custom packages, having single build instruction file is super convenient and unlike with Debian at times, replacing whatever core system packages without breaking half of the dependency tree is usually easily doable on Arch.
I've packaged on both distros, and PKGBUILDs are truly amazing
Another point for KDE might be that it works much better on a small screen that may be partially obscured by an overlaid keyboard. I used Bazzite Gnome for a while on the Steam Deck and I much preferred Plasma on there after switching back, despite using Gnome on my main system.
For the KDE part, something I haven't heard most people mention is the wayland support and how fast they are to pioneer and implement new protocols. DRM leasing is the reason why Gnome can't do VR games and I forget why they wouldn't implement it, but the why doesn't really matter for a company focused on gaming. There are quite a number of protocols that have followed this same story with Gnome.
Didn't GNOME support Wayland way earlier than KDE ?
Yes, but that isn't really relevant to the current state of things. I still think Gnome's wayland implementation is ahead in some ways, but why would that matter when various game related stuff doesn't work on Gnome. We are talking about a gaming company here.
Switched to it by default in 2016.
Debian was planning on dropping 32 bit support and Steam is still a 32 bit application so valve freaked out.
Arch gets faster driver updates, KDE is faster at developing Wayland protocol implementations.
Edit: Valve gets their desired stability by turning Arch into a point release distro through image based releases. And, the system is practically unbrickable since it's immutable. So, in summary it's the best of both rolling release and point release models. By best, I mean for gaming.
Wayland
🤮
I understand your comment if you have an Nvidia GPU and/or if you don't do any gaming, but if you have an Intel or AMD GPU and you play games, Wayland is just better. VRR, HDR, Fractional Scaling, Nvidia Reflex (for all GPU brands), in GameScope (wayland compositor made by Valve) you can have FSR, upscaling, on all games. It's even better than on Windows. And if you use Bazzite, all is set up for you out of the box, you don't need to be an experienced Linux user to use all of the above tech. Just like on the Steam Deck.
I suspect KDE because most PC gamers are Windows users and KDE is closer to that while Gnome is closer to macOS (both in design and being restrictive).
I believe SteamOS is also immutable and uses a rolling release model. It’s probably logical to make a custom version of Arch. They can make it immutable and still get the latest packages. Fedora Silverblue (or another immutable Linux distro) wouldn’t be as quick to release packages and was probably in alpha when the decision was made.
I suspect KDE because most PC gamers are Windows users and KDE is closer to that while Gnome is closer to macOS (both in design and being restrictive).
For what it's worth, when I moved from macOS to Linux I found that KDE Plasma customisation made it less frustrating to get the appearance and multitouch gestures closer to what I was missing on a Mac.
I know this is silly and I can make KDE do this but at some point, my workflow became a mouse to the top left corner to get an overview and get all the windows so I can swap programs. It started with Gnome 3 years ago, and as far as I know, macOS copied hot corners in a way that’s worse in that it requires changing settings.
The other part of my workflow is pressing a remapped CAPS Lock control or whatever and tilde for my terminal to come out guake style. I use ddterm in gnome.
If I can’t switch windows and call up a terminal guake style, I’ll retire.
ElementaryOS sounds like a perfect fit for you, if you haven't tried it already. Superb gesture support and consistent UI across all built in apps
That said, a lot of the gesture support has been implemented in Gnome and KDE now anyway, particularly partial gestures which previously had very poor support IIRC
SteamOS, which is what is on the Deck, used to be Debian-based. The creation of the Deck led to an environment where a rolling distro was a better choice.
I don't think it has anything to do with Arch being a rolling distro.
SteamOS isn't a rolling distro, it's by releases controlled by Valve.
Even on a Debian base they could have done the same, like Ubuntu releasing versions independently from Debian.
Because SteamOS is immutable, the simplest today would be to use a Fedora Atomic base.
I had no idea it was based on Arch... I thought I read somewhere that Steam was only officially packaged for Debian or Ubuntu.
SteamOS was based on Debian but they changed when they released Steam deck with Arch base
They only support Ubuntu as downstream Distro, while they preinstall it on their number 1 supported platform, SteamOS. They control the complete software stack and even hardware.
They dont support Arch on whatever hardware, they support SteamOS on the Steamdeck.
People shitting on Gnome sound like kids bitching that the free pizza shop doesn't offer your favorite hamburger.
Also, all this sudden Gnome hate all over Lemmy is trendy as fuck, being trendy used to mean you were a loser with no original style, I guess the capitalists turned it into "viral" and made it cool.
Gnome is shit, I use KDE btw is definitely the new Reddit/Lemmy Linux community circlejerk.
And it's not even like console fanboy arguments, because in this case it's pretty one-sided. I don't see Gnome fans brigading KDE threads and circlejerking about KDE being awful and the devs being cunts.
Idk why people can't just accept that they're both amazing DEs but very different in use, with very different project philosophies.
It seems to me that people keep saying "Linux is about choice", but the second someone chooses something different to what the hivemind likes, the pitchforks are out.
It's not new, it started when they released GNOME 3.
I don’t see Gnome fans brigading KDE threads and circlejerking about KDE being awful and the devs being cunts.
I'm a Gnome user for like 20 years, I don't prefer KDE but glad it's there. I never have but would be happy to support KDE and understand any devs being cunts on occasion, I'm sure it's stressful. I'm glad they are there so I don't have to use proprietary software.
I remember a lot of KDE hate up until Gnome 3, which was controversial, to say the least. It mirrored old-school Mac hate, with a lot of invalid arguments parroted by people who never took time to learn it (or more to the point, to unlearn what they came from).
I've swapped between Gnome and KDE a bunch of times, and it hasn't really made a difference to me in many years. There was a time when running apps built for one on the other was a painful experience either way. Nowadays my DE choice doesn't really influence my application choices.
This is a dumb take too, it's important to criticize and scrutinize anything and everything down to the smallest detail to understand what works and what doesn't, how and why that is the case in order to make better decisions for the future. You have to think critically, especially about software even when it's a matter of preference.
Shitting on Gnome if you use a tiled desktop manager is fair game.
Shitting on Gnome if you use KDE is just dumb
More embedded Linux BSPs use Arch since it's more easily stripped-down. Development of the Steam Deck would have started from the hardware up, not from a server/desktop distro down.
I assume because it’s more customizable.
The popular opinion is that it was easier for them to get up-to-date packages that way.
My opinion: It's just what the people working on the Deck were using at the time themselves.
Other reason might be that they had SteamOS 2 based on Debian and probably had some problems with it that they could solve on Arch more easily.
Arch packaging is also significantly easier to work with in my experience. I've packaged for both for some years and I'll take the Arch build system over wrangling dpkg every chance I can.
Totally agree. Arch is actually a really good, simple system. That's why so many people pick it as their main distro. Once you have installed it a few times, it's just very simple how it works. There is no magic.
+1 to this. I built a few deb packages at a previous company. It was a solid packaging suite but good lord was it a pain to work through
I feel like this is the answer. if you've ever had to maintain a build pipeline or repository for .deb or .rpm, it's not exactly pleasant (it is extremely robust, however). arch packaging is very simple by comparison, and I really doubt they'd need much more.
I have only ever packaged for RPM (the company I work for has our own RPM-based distro). How does it compare? I find RPM to be pretty easy, but I have nothing to compare against.