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Why has the world gone to shit?

In the last 5 to 10 years everything seems to suck: product's and services quality plummeted, everything from homes to cars to food became really expensive, technology stopped to help us to be something designed to f@ck with us and our money, nobody seems to be able to hold a job anymore, everyone is broke. Life seems worse in general.

Why? Did COVID made this happen? How?

296 comments
  • Because corporate greed and the economic elite around the world hoarding more resources than ever before.

    And we let them.

    • We don't just let them, we cheer them on. Look at the celebrity worship culture we humans have. If you took away the person and left only their actions, most of us would happily throw the rich into a woodchipper. But they use their money to convince us that they're special and deserve praise, and most of us go along with it because we're sheep.

    • That is such a lazy argument. More people then ever before are out of poverty in the history of mankind. Doesn't mean there are not problems. In regards to COVID, we took millions of people out of the workforce while printing money and still paying many of them? Of course that will result in massive reduction of inventory levels that we will feel for a decade. That results in inflation as what do people expect when less items available to the same amount of people that want them.

      Regards to qualities etc. That varies. We have more access to products then at anytime in history as well. And many of these products have come down significantly in price. But that also means quality products and their prices get compared to shit products at lower prices. What do you think people buy? Secondary, people do far less informal work and that effects your perception of income. Our parents and grandparents maintained their own cars and houses for example and grew far more food. Now every hires that out and buys all their groceries at a store. That leaves you with far less money.

      Then there is one industry that has made gains but their costs has gone up ten fold. That is healthcare. You have access to some of the best medical procedures then at anytime in history. But some of those costs can be North of a million dollars. Our parents and grandparents simply did not access that and in some cases died. I am happy I have now options but this is coming at a huge cost of which much of it has to be paid for upfront before you retire.

      You could kill off every billionaire tomorrow but that won't result in much more houses being built or available. Wealth inequality is an issue but if more cogs are not manufactured, our standard of living will not change much.

      • People in cities have not sustained on growing their own foods for hundreds of years. Refined crops and goods have been machined into the cities ever since the industrial revolution and before that it was farmers that brought their goods to be sold at the markets. The greatest achievement of humanity over other species on the planet is our ability to delegate and cooperate. You grow food, I make tools. Together we thrive.

        Yep, you have a rampant problem with housing and healthcare over there in America-land, I agree. But why is that? Because of massive hoarding of resources. Human essentials and needs are commoditized like a "smart" investment for the ruthless opportunists. Hell, your entire societal system is built around it, and it's spilling into the rest of the world. It's a dog eat dog economy that is hailed like an ideology by useful idiots bought by the elites by the trickling of pocket change. Then the ideology has been turned into a culture of over consumption, again hailed by other useful idiots to convince the regular people that it will give them purpose, fill the hole, numb the pain of the aimless grind for nothing meaningful ever. And who does all of this benefit? Where do all this wealth and all these resources end up that could transform the entire planet for something that benefits all mankind? To the owners of the owners of the owners, and the money that doesn't crawl it's way up is a good investment to keep the system intact.

        But no, let's concentrate on the tools we use and not what they do. Let's focus on the monetary system. Let's get stuck in inflation and regression and unfortunate loopholes "but-what-can-you-do" and tax havens and desired unemployment rates and spoiling of food while people are starving - for the economy. Everything can be explained with the economy, and if you disagree you're clearly uninformed or ignorant don't have enough the smarts.

        People have done the double think and now the economy is no longer the tool, is no longer a representation, but it is the real thing. And more so the current economic system is forever and eternal and unchangeable like the word of God.

        It's funny and sad that people actually believe this is all there is.

  • Capitalist governments are pro-finance, not pro-people. Totalitarian gvmts (China etc) are pro-system, not pro-people. They're just different ways of maintaining classes of people who control the power/finances.

    There's always been an uber-rich elite, all the way from the first tribal chieftain or Pharaoh or whatever until now and there's always been a huge underclass of the rest of us. The first law of any hierarchy is to protect the people at the top.

    What we see today (in Westernised countries) is the natural, logical progression of economics driven democracy. Economic theorists say wealthy people create wealth by purposefully distributing it via jobs etc but in reality they do everything possible to minimise the loss of what they see as their money by abusing labour laws, privatising everything, trying to kill unions, creating convoluted laws to protect their fortunes, avoiding taxes and hiking prices up to the point most of us are just about surviving with enough carrot to ignore or pretend we don't see the stick.

    And we're willing participants in that system. We know this is happening but we're dazzled by lotteries holding out the chance to join the rich, promises of work making us rich and a media which lionises the elite as some kind of fabulous aspirational status to the point we have people on social media faking a rich lifestyle for internet points.

    The uber rich believe they're better than us and our acquiescence with this system really means we agree with them.

    • I agree broadly with much of your assessment of history and many of the problems that bely current western society. The rich might be exploiting capitalism to their benefit but a capitalist system with proper regulation will always be better (in terms of Quality of life and freedom) for larger groups of people Than a planned economy.

      • Possibly but I can't think of a time that's been attempted, let alone successfully implemented. Capitalism always (it seems to me) ends up morphing into a system to protect wealth and the wealthy. They would never, ever allow 'proper regulation' (by which I assume you mean regulation to protect workers as much as the rich) to happen.

        Capitalism isn't a national thing - its global - there's always going to be places where what one country forbids another country allows. All a rich person or company has to do is transfer their base of operations there to circumnavigate most laws and pay lip service to the laws of the countries they operate in. Look at Amazon or Starbucks.

      • Planned economies were the means to the end not the end. Basing it around authoritarian, suppressive, dictatorial government is what made it the end. That said, apart from freedom of speech issues. Capitalism struggles in most aspects to truly be better, even at its best. Because capitalism ends up authoritarian and suppressive as well. Those with all the wealthy and resources don't tolerate those who are against their theft.

        We should be moving past both.

      • It'd need some pretty strong regulation, but it could work out very well

  • I'm coming across this post after reading an article about how Netflix is bathing in money and now making their options worse for customers, how the most wheel of a Boeing 757 fell off, and a how a country has been so free of criticism for decades that they're able to commit genocide for over 3 months.

    I'm having a hard time seeing hope in our future. Every company operates solely to extract as much profit as humanly possible (and not as Artificialally Intelligently as possible) without considering for a single moment how a decision they make may effect their relationship with customers or the quality of their product. I know companies are in it to make money, but they used to at least correct decisions in the face of public outcry. (Hell Microsoft did an about face on Xbox One features in 2013 after public outcry)

    But things seem different now. Since the pandemic and the overall regard for human life went up, companies almost feel vindictive and emboldened to do even more to fuck customers over. Its almost like they're holding a grudge over consumers for considering anything in life over their spending habits from March 2020 - September 2021. After all, the biggest push to "return to normal" was to get the economy back on track. I'll never forget some asshole on a fox news segment saying "We gotta return to normal people. Yes some people will die, but grandma would sacrifice herself for the economy." That's when I lost all hope of things getting better.

    We've had the chance many times to change the way we act as a species and potentially make the world better, but somehow we always fail to do so. We're just fucked.

  • Don't forget that global climate change has really kicked into gear the last few years. Just 10 years ago, summer in Arizona was terrible, but you wouldn't get third degree burns from falling on the ground. The polar vortex is getting all screwed up, causing severe cold in winter on one half of the northern hemisphere while the other half experiences very very mild winter weather. global weather phenomena are getting more and more severe, and still the people who actually can effect change on large scale are loathe to do so because it would hurt their bottom line. Hell in a hand basket would be an apt descriptor for where we're going and how we're getting there.

  • So, before I say "capitalism" like everyone else id like to argue many of the monetary/economic policy can be used by either authoritarian state capitalists or free capitalists alike.

    https://42macro.com/education Edit: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjqe6xtZYTfvA4pHs0HgJsQ

    This can be useful^ it's a brief read. Also I love Adam Taggart, he's a really good person to follow on YouTube for economics.

    Things were getting bad for a while, and we kick the can down the road until an exponentially worse problem arrives, then repeat. Let's look at COVID for now tho instead of going back decades

    COVID happens, society has to adapt, and now there's growth issues with the economy (growth domestic product or gross domestic income)

    First, government gives a shit ton of stimulus checks to the consumer market. A market is a collection of buyers and sellers. The consumer market is a collection of buyers and sellers who spend their money on one thing and don't retain that value. So most of the stimmy money went from consumers to corporations. To give you an idea, over the last 3 years we've seen 35% of inflation that is never going away, it will forever weigh on the consumer market (and that's the market that needs to be well off for an economy to be anything more than the stock/financial market)

    Second, Fed sees an incoming recession so they lower interest rates to make banking loans cheaper to encourage investment to increase growth again. This means people who are not suffering from the economy can easily afford another house since they're basically not paying any interest on it, then rent it out to Airbnb or whatever.

    All these things cause growth in the short term, while making inflation a much worse problem in the long term.

    FED starts raising interest rates slowly over the last year or 2. Now they're about to lower them again which is a sign we're in for another recession, but let's look at what raising interest rates did:

    Banks operate on a very tight margin and raising interest rates hurts banks in the short term and takes a while for markets to react to (which is part of the reason why we saw so many bank closures like silicon valley bank)

    But raising interest rates also makes it more expensive for people to afford mortgage payments.

    H.O.P.E: housing , orders, profits, employment

    When mortgage payments got more expensive housing got expensive. When housing gets expensive orders go down and/or credit card usage goes up (which is another separate problem / indicator). When orders go down profits go down, and when profits go down employment goes down.

    It should be worth noting the one thing J Powell did right was creating slack in job openings to prevent a complete crash in the labor market, but that's the last thing to crash in a recession so we're still just kicking the can down the road.

    That's the best analysis I can do with respect to COVID, but some other interesting things:

    The average boomer is 2 years into retirement. The labor force is going to continue shrinking for the next 7 years. It won't be this bad in America, but in south east asian countries, there's going to reach a point where there are more old people than young people, and when that happens there's not enough people to care for the elderly and support the rest of the economy, so both tend to suffer. America will feel this pain as well, but our population "pyramid" is more of an hourglass, where south east asian is an upside down pyramid

    Also, geopolitical tensions are likely going to get worse over the next few years. China manufactures everything consumers like that don't have to do with defense, so things like smartphones are going to get much more expensive , and tech stocks are likely to suffer. Edit: not to mention food and gas prices increasing from Ukraine war (which isn't in the Feds basket of goods for inflation which is HILARIOUSLY STUPID considering that's their excuse for inflation)

    Also, there's tons of shadow banks with stealth liquidity where there's no information how much money they have. So however bad inflation was the last few years and will continue to get with the Fed cutting rates, it can get MUCH worse once those banks start releasing their liquidity.

    So, things are bad and they're going to get worse before there's a chance things get better. I really recommend listening to Adam Taggart and the people he interviews to help form your decision making

  • With Globalization from the 80s onwards, the income from work (which in turn feeds consumption) in developed countries started going down, and on the consumer side that income shortfall was compensated by growing debt.

    Then in 2008 the debt growth and hence Economic growth under that new model were jobs were outsourced, was stopped, hard, because too much debt had been accumulated and the Economy was becoming unable to service the interest on that debt (think about it: if $1000 are lent today and in a year's time $1050 is due, to repay the principal plus interest, those $50 of interest have to be created as new wealth in the meanwhile. Now expand that to the whole Economy - more debt = more wealth has to be created to pay interest).

    Central banks intervened by lowering interest rates to historically low levels (the so-called Zero Interest Rate Policy) supposedly temporary but not really, which in turn extended how much debt the whole Economy could stand without sinking under the weight of servicing the interest on it (lower interest rates = more debt for the same amount of interest needing servicing).

    We're running out of runway again, so what's been hapenning is that, to maining profitability in an environment were all but a few are getting poorer (the ones getting richer are those will all that money which they lend, who have been receiving the interest for loaning money) companies are cutting on the cost side, so manpower, product quality and even trying to push consumers into new and more profitable models such as everything as a service.

    This is just one side of the whole thing. There's also a resource depletion side in that most of the easy and cheap stuff to extract - from minerals to oil - has long been extracted and that too goes against continued growth, which is another pressure on companies to keep profits growing by other means.

    • The list of resources we are running out of should include resiliant ecosystems. Apart from that, to me, the entire comment could be summarized as "capitalism".

      • Look Im a socialist leaning centrist but anyone who critiques just capitalism doesn't realize communists are authoritarian state capitalists. I agree there are serious economic flaws in our system, but saying capitalism explains everything just doesn't make sense.

        As bad as things are here, the cost of living and costs of energy grew much more outside of America. Additionally, look at China's housing economic crash and demographic issues. Those are decisions made by State Capitalists, and their people are suffering from it.

        Again, America has several reasons to fuck off, and I want some socialism, but for the sake of argument, saying "capitalism" doesn't amount to much you can critique about America's response to COVID versus any other country's strategy

  • Because we elect people who promise things. Then incumbency bias takes over.

    (This is not US centric. There were a lot of promises in the 1920s worldwide, too.)

    Edit: The only solution I can see (and it's regrettably too slow to tip back the suck gracefully) is routine, vigorous primaries. Do you see how bad those adjectives suck together, "routine and vigorous"? Plus primaries are a snooze-fest.

    I dream to see 60% engagement in primaries. And I mean for Congress. Was your congressperson challenged at the primaries? Yes? Did you weigh the arguments or just hope those primary voters know what they are doing?

    No? Were they perfect? Or did they know the primaries would not be engaging enough to unseat them?

    The establishment will say "no one comes out of a primary smelling pretty". But people that come out of a primary should have their plans defended. The promises made should be what the people of the party like best, not what they think will run best against people who can't agree with the party about who gets human rights. (See how I snuck in a both sides phrasing.)

    Sorry for being a bit of keyboard warrior.

    • It is totally OK to be a keyboard warrior. Where else would we be warriors?

      • I just hate the solution. It's unfeasible. And just words. No actionables. But keyboard warrior is better than tongue biter.

  • I'll do my best to explain what I can. But it's hard, and many PHD dissertations will be written on this. It's not exactly something that can just be explained.

    But yes, Covid was probably the most easily identifiable source. In addition, you could make a claim that Putins' moves, the support from Russia to for various "alt-right" groups, and their eventual war in Ukraine (assumedly, aiming for culmination in reuniting the Soviet Union) have an impact. Lastly, we have various AI projects reading "maturity" (or at least public notoriety), and various services realizing they were missing out on a piece of the "AI pie".

    Covid was.... bad. It's a new, deadly disease that potentially leaves people with life altering side effecs (long covid). The Vaccines are good, if not great even for having been developed so quickly and drastically change your likely outcomes, but they aren't full immunity (like we have for Polio). This left governments in a dammed now if you don't support people, or damned later if you do. They all chose various levels of later. Some governments supported businesses directly and left people alone to suffer, others supported people and left businesses mostly alone. Either way: Cash injections into an economy produces inflation.

    Fighting inflation... the most commonly accepted method in the western world is to raise interest rates* and then let it play out. With the loss of cheap money from low interest rates, many businesses are now being pushed by their owners and shareholders from focusing on growth to make profits (eg: Raise prices, crack downs on password sharing, API use).

    There are other claims you could make, and construct narratives with. For a few years now companies have been growing by expanding into growing countries, but now the number of countries left is short, and companies are running out of places to expand into to grow. Once again, as growth becomes impossible or undesirable, the focus shifts to extracting profit from your existing base. We are reaching maximum saturation.

    *Alternatives: If you would like to slash government spending... see Argentina's inflation (it's bad), for windfall taxes see Spain (it's good).

  • My take: the result of decades of incompetent leadership, at all levels from the government to individual households, that ultimately lead to a society that mainly uses dilatory tactics instead of finding solutions to its issues.

    What happens when the economy crashes? We push the goalposts back a few yards so that it's actually better now and will become a problem later instead. Notice how the frequency of market crashes is increasing? It was every 50 years or so, then it was every 10, now we've had 3 in 5 years, yes I'm fucking counting COVID you had literally over 60 years to prepare for a worldwide pandemic and you sat on your asses.

    What happened with education? Well let's see. Why do we pay for education in the first place? To increase our knowledge and push the boundaries of human civilization, or to put it bluntly: we don't wanna live in a world filled with idiots. But like why do we need education? Cuz like jobs or something...Ever wonder why you MUST have a degree for a job? That's a legal requirement, if something is on the job posting as a requirement then it's a fucking requirement. Suddenly everyone needs a higher education, because the job posting is a legal requirement that must be met, else ye suffer the consequences of immediate disqualification. Fortunately the law miraculously doesn't really care which degree you have, the companies get to choose how narrow the scope is and if they don't do that well that's on them lol xD! So we need a degree, but let's say we don't wanna put in the effort to learn all that hard shit. Besides, we just need survivabile minimum wage, so let's aim for that. It sure is convenient that all these now impacted universities made up all these new bullshit degrees so they could pretend to deal with the influx of morons that are getting intimidated and bribed into their schools via their parents. This sounds like a game to me, and I love games. Wait wait wait wait. We said that we want education because we want people to be smart, but like technically we only need education to get a job. Suddenly education is like this super fun game where you get sorted into a socio economic class in a fun and interesting way. And then people realized they could influence that as early as elementary school, and well gee fuckin golly! They get to vote and control the public education because that's how public school works. And if we loosen up the restrictions on what our kids need to get good grades, their chances of getting into college get better. Guess what? Money also works too, if we have money we can avoid the tiring scramble of public education and just pay to win baybee!!!!

    Why does the everything suck? Because it's owned and operated by investment firms and run by people who are the result of decades of systemic degradation. And who's to blame? The worse generation in human history. The only generation in United States history to have a losing record when it comes to war lose, while simultaneously being the single generation to have started and sustain the most wars! The same fucking generation that didn't die off at 55 because their children didn't huff lead gasoline like they did for Christmas and actually got bothered to learn medical science - as much as I shit on the education system as a whole, there are always some tryhards that slip through. The same generation that still controls 60% of the political offices in this country, while at the same time being composed of the top 1% of mentally unstable weak and decrepit elderly part of the population. The same generation that voted to fuck over retirement pensions from the previous generation back in the 70s or whenever it was, and then now in past decades have undone all of that to secure retirement protections for them suddenly now as they reach their sunset years. The same generation that still currently in the current fucking year of two thousand twenty-four are the two frontrunners for Presidential candidacy.

    And you know what the funniest thing about it is? It's not just the United States. How's Japan looking over across the Pacific? A problem with a top heavy elderly population? Wow who could've guessed. What about the boys across the pond? What does the British parliament look like? Who are still the leaders of China, Russia, North Korea? What families are still in power in the Middle East?

    Our ancestors have failed us. They have failed their brothers and sisters. They have failed our entire goddamned species. I am embarrassed and ashamed for all intelligent beings anywhere and everywhere in any reality where intelligence is possible that we are capable of such idiocy.

    I take great solace in the fact that they will not be around long enough to etch their final memory into the stones of history. And we will.

    Despite all of that it feels to me less like things are getting worse and more like a loud death rattle from a bloated creature - the final shout before the eternal void. I see the same feelings as mine in both my cohorts and in the future generations. I have hopes for the future and strongly believe that the world is just now entering the upswing. It's painful and awkward right now while the old skin sheds, but I am confident we will emerge from our chrysalis transformed into something greater. Maybe that guy who brought up the 12 year delay on the Mayan calendar shit earlier in this thread was on to something; the timing is just too coincidental.

  • Have you read Cory Doctorow’s book on enshitification? I think he focuses more on the Internet but might help answer your question.

    • Enshittification is just a good concept because it's everywhere! It's basically how business operates on internet platforms. First the good times: you provide value to customers and sellers alike. Then the shitty times for sellers: the business begins to charge sellers where they weren't being charged before and things that were free or easy to access before. Then the shitty times for everybody: customers begin to be extracted for their value as formerly free or easy to access stuff gets paywalled. The Bu

      Planned obsolescence is enshittification of manufactured goods and services. Make a name with a strong product that meets customers needs, then focus on profit maximization, intentionally sabotaging the product so that customers are required to come back to you to buy it again.

      De-regulation, in many cases, is the enshittification of so many things. The government limits potentially nasty things whole industries can do and then de-regulation comes in and upends all of that. Suddenly, trains are spilling toxic chemicals all over Ohio because of a rolled back law on safety.

      It's everywhere and it's all about value extraction.

  • In terms of cost, the cost of doing business likely rose due to inflation over the past few years. Those costs have supposedly plateaued but costs for consumption continue to rise. My two cents are markets will continue to increase prices until demand goes down. Eventually they will lower their prices out of necessity as they compete for those who can still afford their products and services.

  • I mean, graded on a wide curve of history right now isn't complete shit. WW1 saw entire generations of young men slaughtered uselessly at the hands of unelected kings. It was so horrific we actually still try not to use chemical warfare. Absolutely brutal combat with casualties that have hardly been seen since. Absolutely nightmare conditions. We baulk at the deaths of 25,000 over a few months of conflict where WW1 regularly saw those numbers in as little as a day. I do not want to minimize the absolutely brutal conflicts going on now. A newly orphaned child is not comforted by history, but your question seeks context and what else is history for but to contextualize the present?

    To me, history shows we have not even begun to experience the the depths of the horror people are capable of. At least in the states decenting voices are not carted away into slavery camps, actively trying to wipe out whole populations with starvation at least has some voices calling out the brutality, I do not see people trying to sell their children to survive like in the depression. These are not far away times where these things happened on a scale they do not now.

    Long story short, history has shown the measure of brutality and uncaring to be significantly worse at times. Raw and unquestioned genocide, slavery, persecution, war, child beating, women opressing, and all manner of the lowest acts of evil are the norm of humanity, not the relative peace we have known over the last 80 years. This fact does not make life suck less, but can at least act as a measure for how horrid is has been.

    • Most of the planet seems to be a shit hole. Western Europe and USA seems to be the exception. We complain about privacy and big tech but we don't complain about having our kids shot by police at least (unless you are black in America).

      Actually the USA is a shit hole too but much better than Russia or China at least. And if you have money in the US, it's a ticket to living like a king.

      • We complain about privacy and big tech

        And having no money to buy our own living place while we're being assfucked without lube by landowners.

  • Are things demonstrably worse? I'm reading that they are but I'm not seeing that they are. I don't live in a great area, but people generally seem as they've always been. Some struggle. Most are fine. Life goes on.

  • Lots of stuff involved. For one, globalization and mechanization are driving forces. The Wikipedia page for pretty much the official term enshittification has a link to another page describing another term "rent-seeking behavior" that means:

    Rent-seeking is the act of growing one's existing wealth by manipulating the social or political environment without creating new wealth.[1] Rent-seeking activities have negative effects on the rest of society.

    i.e. when something just takes takes takes and never gives, that describes the broken state.

    Also in the late 70s, corporations were given enormous power and now they have more power than any individual human beings - even their CEOs exist as slaves to their whims, except to the extent that they also are shareholders in their stocks. Humans have to do things like breathe, eat, die, and pay their debts, but corporations have special legal exemptions and don't have to do any of this. And this even without the extra special stuff done on top of the normal when they are deemed too big to fail - e.g. banks can smuggle money from genocidal terrorists and get away with it, but don't try that at home unless you too are a corporation of at least a certain size, and can afford to bribe/threaten the life of your own personal judge!

    And underlying it all is the dirty word politics, an ancient Greek word meaning "how (the process by which) we all agree", or another definition is "who gets what, when, how". Every time something happens, whether it be genocide or school shootings or even just allowing corporations to claim one thing on the internet while delivering the exact opposite of that (without consequences), it is this "politics" that decides the outcome - like WILL we support Ukraine (financially and/or otherwise) to defend itself from Russian aggression or WON'T we? And on that note, there is a fascinating series of videos on YouTube called "The Alt-Right Playbook", which explains why conservatives like what has happened the last 10 years - e.g. not paying taxes is "smart" and Musk taking over Twitter is "his own business/matter", and corporations having all the stuff while we merely working stiffs have none of it is very much not a byproduct but the literal point of the systems, which is very much working as designed. You may call it words like "inflation" and "price gouging", but companies charge what the market can bear, so according to that philosophy, whatever you call it is a good thing, very much not something that government should be doing anything to stop, and in fact perhaps corporations should be given even more power on top of that.

    Like everything else - e.g. physics, biology, chemistry, economics, etc. - you are not going to understand everything in less than let's say a year, or possibly a decade, but you will get there if you really want to know. The short answer imho is that giant corporations now have more rights than mere human beings and thus normal folks are fast becoming obsolete. We will either be killed off (a large number anyway) and the rest absorbed into becoming slaves for them, the same as has happened many times throughout history. And we will be shocked, shocked I tell you, shocked, as if this entirely predictable outcome had never happened before and never would again. Basically they are putting in huge efforts to do these things, and very few people are bothering to lift a finger to try and stop it so... how is it not inevitable? About the only thing I see working against corporate enshittification is FOSS and piracy, each providing for free what corporations want you to pay for.

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