TikTok says it’s not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine — The company denied allegations that it has been promoting pro-Palestine content in an effort to sway American opinion

It's almost like teens see something like a genocide being committed, think it's wrong and say something about it.

Yeah I don’t think teens are particularly pro-Palestine or anti-Israel.
Teens throughout history have just been anti-war and anti-killing-children.
- Imagine being a teenager and being against teenagers getting killed. What is this world coming to?
- I don’t understand why so many stop doing so.
IDK, both can be true. Teens might be right in saying something and tiktok might be amplifying that kind of content because it helps China geopolitically. A highly upvoted post on Lemmy literally yesterday was this - https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/13/us/china-online-disinformation-invs/index.html
- Tiktok also didn't censor the major protests in France like Facebook and Twitter did at the time.
  Theres only a handful of social media outlets. Tik tok is just not suppressing the Pro Palestine content like Western owned media outlets have been.
  We speak lots of " free speech " in the West, but look how quick, German, British, American, Canadian government and media spheres are united in calling Palestine protestors terrorists and supporting hamas.
  Its just our lack of free speech being exposed when it goes against the powers that be.
- There's a ton of support for the Palestinian people out there. It would strongly appear to be suppressed on commercial social media sites. I can't say that Tiktok isn't amplifying it, but as you poke around on open social platforms that tend to censor less, you see a lot more Pro-Palestine news and content. If you go through twitter or facebook and find specific regional bloggers, the content is out there but if doesn't seem to pass the algorithm
- Maybe the U.S. upvoted that to discredit China /j
- China gains nothing by Mideast conflict.
  Israel - clearly does not care about things like democracy and human rights.
  I can see them drawing closer to China.
"You're crazy to believe your own eyes!"
Stupid thing people don't they like killing?
When the October 7 attack happened my teenagers noticed the one sided media and hamfisted pro Israel propaganda asked what's really going on. Today's kids are getting constant propaganda and advertising. They're not immune but they recognize it and bristle.
When I was a teenager and Yitzhak Rabin was murdered i bought the anti palastine rhetoric that followed for an embarrassingly long time. And we knew that it was Netanyahu. Well, I don't think we knew until later that he was aware that night of what he was doing. But we knew it was his follower who pulled the trigger.
Israel has already killed 10-20x as many people as died in the Hamas attack, and they’re just getting started.

The amount of pro Palestinian support is overwhelming everywhere. Only newspapers and Reddit bots and paid shills are still spreading IDF propaganda. The rest of the world sees israel for the Nazi's they are.

I think the Israeli government is authoritarian, and their scorched earth tactics against Palestinians are war crimes, but you're not doing the cause any favors by invoking the Nazis. Criticize their actual behavior.
- They turned Gaza into a concentration camp.
  As Jews, they should absolutely know better.
- The problem is their behavior and rhetoric towards Palestine resembles a sentiment shared by the OG Nazis
- In a context where we have the lies about the hospitals having tunnels under them, that 40 non-existent babies were beheaded and where some key facts about Oct 7 have somewhat unravelled, how far would you even bother policing the words of people wishing for a liberated Palestinian?
  The Israelis and their supporters are also notorious liars and frequently try to claim that Muslims or brown people were responsible for the Holocaust in Europe.
  They've bombed civilians before and the intelligence they send tend to be garbage according to EU after they looked through the reams of documents the Israelis sent them. As an occupier, Israel behaves like a country at war all the time, they lie, kill and cheat perpetually.
- The comparisons to the Nazis are actually inescapable. I struggle to think of a centrally orchestrated and mechanized system of apartheid/oppression and now genocide that's more similar.
- The Nazis forced Jews into ghettos. Gaza is a ghetto that Palestinians are forced to live in.
  Zionists will not however, directly kill every Palestinian. They will indirectly try to kill every Palestinian by colonizing every last inch of land from the Palestinians. The ones that immigrate away will be too scattered to maintain a coherent ethnicity, and eventually their culture will be erased.
  So, while practically speaking they're not as bad as Nazis, they are as effective as Nazis, if not more so.
I've still got plenty of friends who support Israel over here in the states, including basically everyone conservative I know.
- Interesting, I actually know a couple conservatives that are anti globalism, which justified their anti Israel stance. However, the conservatives I know that are party aligned due to religious preferences... that's another story
Which is encouraging. It's been a relatively silent genocide for decades, and while it's good to see people waking up, it's almost too late. Kinda like climate change.
- Pretty shitty genocide if the population keeps growing...
As someone who stands mostly in the middle, I rarely comment on this issue because every second poster calls anyone that has even the mildest sympathy for Israel's situation a Nazi.
You people are tiresome and it's honestly not worth 'debating' with you.
- An ethno-state is based on race superiority that is committing genocide to expand their lebensraum by dehumanizing their enemies and calling for the indiscriminate slaughter of people of a certain race by locking them all up in a giant concentration camp.
  Now where the fuck did I hear they one before? Oh yeah the Nazi's. It's almost comical how much israel is a copy of Nazi Germany.
  You are correct that I will call every israel sympathizer a Nazi because they are Nazi's by practically everyx single definition.
- The English language is great. If your friend was recently kicked out of their house by a Nazi and is arguing with them about it, you can see if things get violent and call out "hey, Nazi debater!" and they will both turn their heads, unsure if you're talking to them or the other guy. Hilarity will ensue from this small confusion, and all will end well.
  That having been said, the Nazi will still conveniently forget all their country's history, will declare they are the "pure" or "chosen" ones, and proceed to cleanse the ones that don't fit their world view, including your friend.
- I stand for the people. I support Israel, but not it's far right government that wants to kill all palestinian people and take their lands, but at the same time, I support Palestine, but not it's extremist terrorist leaders.
  Wars are fought between two or more governments for their own goals and is a competition who cal kill the other side the most (including it's civilians).
  You can support a country without supporting their government, however people sometimes tend to be lazy and just say "fuck Israel" instead of saying "fuck the government of Israel", or say "fuck Palestine" by being ignorant instead of saying "fuck HAMAS".
  Innocent people should not be vilified for just wanting to live their lives in peace.

Almost like when you take religion out of the picture it's one country committing genocide against another which is never okay for any reason. Israel can scream "but muh anti-semitism" all they want but it's a scapegoat. Ignore Jewish/Muslim backgrounds and look at what's really going on. It's nothing but a disgusting land grab and genocide that's been going on since WW2.

The world would 100% be a better place without Israel, and that's nothing to do with their religion. The country itself is evil and corrupt. They are bigoted and hypocritical. Israel deserves no sympathy or support. Out of all the bullshit I've seen happen in the middle east the past few decades, Israel is definitely the most abhorrent and repulsive source of conflict.

- You can say "the world would be better without Israel" without actually calling for the eradication of the country. I think creating Israel was a historical mistake, but that doesn't make it a mistake you can just paint over. Solutions must come from acknowledging the current reality and the innocent people who live at both sides of the border and their rights and dignity.
Land grab? Can you explain? It looks like the status quo has been maintained since 1967 or so?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories
- Israel has allowed settlers to continuously claim land from the West Bank, enclosing its territory from the Palestinians who already lived there, preventing the Palestinian Authority from imprisoning settlers or kicking them out, and refusing to pursue legal action against settlers while illegally imprisoning Palestinians for retaliating when they see their land getting stolen without anyone defending them.
- Ignoring all the ongoing colonization, didn't they just take Jerusalem a couple years ago when Trump said they could put their embassy there?
What do you think about Hamas? Why do they exist and what is their actual agenda? Is it really at the very top simply helmed by limousine-riding desert kings in Quatar?
- Hamas is as bad as Isreal, but they are Isreal's own creation. Most Palestinians don't support Hamas just like most Isrealis don't support their own government. It is two governments trying to commit genocide on the others civilians. Their are no good guys here. Just thousands of innocent civilians being massacred on both sides. The main difference is the US has decided to give one of these governments committing genocide the most advanced weapons available and practically no governments are even trying to help the Palestinians anymore. Not to mention hamas is commiting genocide to take back land the palestinians had a 100 years ago while the isrealis are commiting genocide to take back land they had 2000 years ago while pretending the palestians never even existed and spouting off racist revisionist history.
- Wow you literally went so "whataboutist" that you actually say "what about" in your sentence.
do you genuinely think israel wants this tiny stretch of land, even at the cost of all of this(thousands of israelis dead, more soldiers die every day, rockets and terror attacks from lebanon, syria and yemen, and all the public backlash) I'll tell you a hint, they truly don't and if they did, they won't take it this slowly, and this carefully not to hurt civilians if they truly just wanted the tiny piece of land, it would have been so kuch easier to just indiscriminately level the entire place (without the need for a ground invasion)
I know I'm not gonna change any minds here as people like you who have already decided israel is the culmination of all evil won't back down from that belief that easily, but just try to not assume every israeli born is a racist Palestinian hater, and try to think why would they go through all of this, what do they stand to gain or to lose, assuming of course they are rational human beings
btw if it's genocide for the past 56 years, they are truly really really bad at committing genocide
- Yes, the leaders of Isreal want palestine removed from the map. They are not taking it carefully. They are indiscriminately leveling Gaza right now. Please ask the 4000 dead palestinian children how careful the Isrealis have been.
  Wanting to commit genocide and having the political capital to get away with it are two different things. I know several isrealis that felt their country was commiting genocide and I know for fact that not all Isrealis are bad. Criticism of Isreal is not an attack on all isrealis just like criticism of Hamas is not an attack on all palestinians.
- They want the land and the $500 billion worth of natural gas in the sea
- 1h, 0 downvotes.
  Good luck buddy.
- I'd say they're good at it considering they're getting away with it.

A broken tiktok is right twice a day...

As far as I can tell, neither government here has the moral high ground...and I chose the word "government" there for a reason.
It is my understanding from very far away only able to see through Lie-O-Vision that two governments that hate each other because religion are basically taking it out on civilians who just want to live their lives. It's a tragedy that has basically nothing to do with me yet it does cast my eyes toward my own capitol city with a bit of a suspicious squint.

I'm convinced this whole tiktok is manipulating the algorithm thing is actually US propaganda.

Here's how you actually "manipulate the algorithm."
1: take up residency in the comments, and at the same time start a few basic accts that don't say anything too controversial (day in the life kinda stuff, thirst traps, etc). Establish a basic presence
2: once you amass a following, you start with pretty basic stuff lots of young people agree with - housing/healthcare reform, work reform, etc
3: an important part a lot of people miss - have your own team troll your comments. Stir up shit. The goal is to get people riled up, not move the needle in any specific direction
4: throw out something big (it's been confirmed that Russia is behind distribution on TikTok of OBL's "Letter to America" recently). Fight on both sides, tagging in as much of the greater sphere of commenters as you can.
That's it. That's all anyone's doing. Just do this over and over and you eventually drive people crazy.
They did the exact same thing in 2016, they did it in 2020 with BLM, they did it with Ukraine. It's nothing new
- Sounds pretty convincing, but you lost me in the end. Who did "exact same thing" in 2016, 2020, and 2022? Are you implying that Russia and/or China were trying to increase the harm done to the US that way? I'm quite at a loss here
US propaganda is so, so bad. Russia and China are awful, but US is no better in this regard.
A little from column A, a little from column B?
Have you seen Chinese TikTok vs America TikTok? It’s wild. The Chinese TikTok has videos of scientists and musicians and engineers all tackling major problems. It’s inspirational. The American TikTok is absolutely fucked. There’s clearly heavy algorithm manipulation. At the very least, we know China could make American TikTok not terrible and they choose not to.
- The Chinese TikTok has videos of scientists and musicians and engineers all tackling major problems. It’s inspirational
  My TikTok FYP is various scientists/science commenters, stand up comedians, chubby goth girls dancing, Magic The Gathering card reviews, and swinger shit.
  If you engage only with things you like, you'll only see things you like.
- A lot of the best sci-fi is coming out of China these days. People who like to theorize about these things point to a population, much like America in the post war Baby Boom, seeing for themselves the benefits science can bring to their lives as China pretty rapidly develops, and being fascinated by what could be next.
  So you might need to accept that the most popular trending American social media is venal and insipid because the average American wants to see venal and insipid, while the Chinese population might just be interested in things that interest them.

TikTok is banned in India so there's way less anti-muslim sentiment on the platform.

Yes, let's combat racism with more racism, way to go.
- How is this racist? Behavior of BJP mob on Reddit was observable by how r/worldnews looked like depending on time of the day.
- 55% of Islamophobic tweets originated in India: https://apo.org.au/node/318935
- Racism is when you don't want muslim people to be oppressed and murdered? 🤔
- Islam isn't a race, and Indian Muslims aren't Arab...they're Indian, like Pakistanis are Indian and not Arab...

I'm pro-human beings and opposed to killing and maiming people who are trying to enjoy their life.

They're just trying to survive. We've already made it impossible for them to enjoy life
Yet we're not seeing calls for Hamas to step down and let innocent Palestinians live in some version of peace that can never be known under Islamic jihad....
Which I find very weird. The lack of conversation surrounding the admitted goals of the leaders of the Palestinian people is something that needs to be part of any conversation.
- It's a false dichotomy to condition ceasing the extermination of a whole innocent population to protests towards a terrorist organization. Israel does not need to bomb several hospitals to stop Hamas. There are other ways to go about stopping terrorists.
  Maybe you don't see many calls at Hamas because people are catching up with how wholesale persecution and extermination of people is often justified by pointing to a few malicious individuals that are part of that population.
- Because they're not going to do that. You can't call them terrorists and expect logical reasonable action or reaction.
  The Palestinian people by in large did not vote Hamas in, over 50% of the people in Gaza were not alive during the last election.

Everyone's pro-palestine. They're just fucking people caught in the middle of some retarded bullshit. Every time someone gets killed, that entire family is probably radicalized, and they're right to be.

Israel has unrelentingly taken the worst possible approach to the problem, having learned nothing from their own experience. They've made the worst possible mess of it, which is no surprise considering it was made by a bunch of people trying to make the Bible come true like dipshits.

Every time someone gets killed, that entire family is probably radicalized, and they’re right to be.
This is why I say Hamas playing the entire world like a fucking puppet. Sure, the individual fighters are probably not happy they kicked a hornets nest but the people who planned the attack I'd be fucking shocked if they were anywhere near Gaza.
Israel's anger is justified, the attack from Hamas was truly heinous, but holy shit Israel's leadership acted in the most predictable manner which is horrifying the world that many who would have supported Israel earlier this year is now wondering why countries like the US is involved, especially when the fight with Russia and Ukraine is going on and having trouble getting support. I'm sure many Palestinians did not want anything to do with Hamas, but every family member killed is likely to bring another one over to the fold. The US promptly moved in behind to support Israel, and bent everything to get the US citizens in Israel home immediately, while sending over a carrier group to keep any other country from getting involved... however let US citizens who were in Gaza when all this went down remain there for a month until Egypt finally opened a corridor, citizens that probably now trust the US just a little bit less along with those that payed attention to it.
The obvious plan is to be a destabilization measure, and I fear it will certainly be that. I just hate the feeling of those that know history are doomed to watch others repeat it.

IMO there are big risks consuming news & opinion from any single source.

Whether it's the CCP manipulating the TikTok algorithm, Russia buying ad space on Facebook, or American conglomerates pushing narratives on western mainstream media, there will be implicit biases everywhere.

The only real answer is to get news from multiple sources with diverging perspectives, try to find where facts overlap, challenge your own implicit biases, and form a perspective in line w/ your values.

Seeing America blame TikTok for pushing propaganda is the pot calling the kettle black -- and honestly more of a distraction than anything else.

The real important issue is that people are dying, and the existing power structures are doing jack shit to stop it.

I wouldn’t trust TikTok

no one with a functioning brain does. at the corporate or content level.
Which is why so many americans are obsessed with it, since the overwhelming bulk of americans are fucking idiots.
- Thanks A_Random_Idiot

Maybe it's not so much they're "pro-Palestine" but anti-genocide.

I never would have thought that "anti-killing-people" would be a controversial position to take, but here we are.
- My ancestors since the 1700s were part of a pacifist tradition so I'm well aware of how controversial it is lol
I think you'd be surprised how many people are pro-Palestinian liberation struggle. And for a good reason. Sometimes the liberation fight may result in war crimes which we are all against, but that doesn't discredit the liberation struggle itself. If anything, maybe the colonisers should stop oppressing and mass murdering the people if they don't want them to react so violently.

when the majority content type dominates the platform

surprise ~~pikachu~~algorithm

If you aren't anti-oppression or anti-apartheid you aren't progressive
- Yeah well, one can be anti-oppression and anti-apartheid as well as anti-terror, anti-killing-civilians, anti-bombing-hospitals, anti-using-civilians-as-shields, anti-hostage-taking and anti-warcrimes.
  The israeli Government is not the only one with blood on their hands and while nothing can excuse what the IDF is doing, nothing can excuse what HAMAS is doing too.
  Both sides fucking suck, the only difference I can see is that HAMAS is bad for Israelis and Palestinians moreso than the Israeli Government is also bad for Israelis.
- Sure, but who is the "oppressor" and who is the "oppressed" can flip on a dime based on context.
  A lot of oppressed people eventually find themselves to be the oppressor.
  If you take a hard stance joining any side, you are at some point siding with an oppressor.
  I don't need to describe how horrific and oppressive Nazi Germany and the Holocaust was. But you take a hard stance siding with the Jewish people, you are siding with the oppressor in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
  I don't need to describe how horrific the situation in Gaza is, but if you take a hard stance siding with Palestine and Hamas executes a bunch of festival goers, you're siding with the oppressor.
  The only way to be anti-opression (and according to you, a real progressive), is to not take sides but take every situation as it is and support the best possible outcome for everyone.
- It's the kind of progressive that only counts things that affect you personally
- Ah yes, the nuanced thinking of a 5 year old - everything is black and white and everyone who doesn't agree w me 100% is evil
You'd think the fact Biden is significantly trailing in most swing states would be a sign for Democrats to wake up and offer something better. Or you know, not support the ethnic state doing a genocide. As this comment shows, instead of blaming the party, it's the voters who have the right point of view who are shamed for not bringing themselves to support the party. They're shamed for being on a high horse instead of compromising on their values and supporting a system that causes genocides. Sometimes the Democrats convince leftists but after enough time something like this happens, then they're cast as the enemies causing the other party to win.
You can't win as a leftist in this situation, "oh you don't want to support the party enabling a fascist ethnic genocide? Well it's your fault the fascist will win then!" Eventually it's just like fuck off. The Democrats made it clear they don't want a candidate with an almost certain chance of beating Trump, I mean they helped him get the nomination in the first place. If Trump wins again it's because the Democrats didn't do the bare minimum to select a candidate who actually connects with the voters they need. Blaming the people who are actually on the right side of every issue for their failure is more of a confession.
- The only person who agrees with you on every subject is: you. This is why you vote for the least worst candidate. I'm Australian though. We have our own problems but I'm trying. Is that what progressive means?

I don't think an algorithm is responsible for the fact that most sane people are generally against genocide. People being pro-Palestine in this specific situation is a humanitarian response and should not be causing any amount of concern because it is the morally correct position here.

HOWEVER, the fact that we just witnessed the fucking letter to america go viral on tiktok, wherein a soul crushing amount of people publicly stated they agree with a fucking jihadist manifesto, is cause for a massive amount of concern. Tiktok definitely needs to face consequences for letting that happen. We also can't excuse the audience for that type of behaviour. Whether it came from a deliberate propaganda campaign, or a sketchy algorithm, or just mass stupidity, audience members need to be better. If you read the letter to america and you think bin laden was right, you're a moron, and you're contributing to the problem.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, I can tell you from my experience as an antitheist that TikTok is heavily PRO-religion. It is ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that much of the problems in the world stem from religiosity, and this long-standing war between Israel and Palestine is the best example of this.
However, TikTok works tirelessly to suppress ANY criticism of theism of any kind. Thus, those jihadists you mention are allowed to promote their extremist ideology, yet if someone like me analyzes and critiques their baseless claims while using logic, reason, fact-based evidence, and the scientific method, I get cited for bullying and hate speech. This is one of the biggest problems facing humanity today........
I think you should pay less attention to mainstream media which propped that issue up disproportionately. It wasn't as big of a deal as many made it out to be.
But regardless of that, I don't think one should be concerned about opinions of people and I certainly don't think it is an issue at all if young people hate the US. It has done some of the most fucked up things in the world since the start of the last century to say the least. This may be expressed in stupid ways like sympathising for Bin Laden, but the broader sentiment of hate towards the US isn't wrong.

The entire point of an app like TikTok is to stir stories and headlines so they get more clicks. Everything is for the algorithm.

tiktok discourse is designed to create the narrative that no one could possibly be pro-palestine, and that humanity can be split into "people who see the truth and support Israel absolutely" and "people who have been fooled by propaganda". do I think there's pro-palestinian propaganda? absolutely. there's also literal commercials for israel in between the youtube videos that I watch.

an asshole loves nothing more than another asshole, so that while he's being an asshole he can point his finger and go "look at what an asshole that guy is!"

It might be a surprise to Americans that many people think that Israelis are evil bastards.

It might be a surprise to non-Americans how many of us think so, too, despite the narratives that Zionist organizations like AIPAC and ADL spend a lot of money to push.

TikToc is a site that people use to share information, and at the end of the day, this is their main complaint. Their golden idea is for one or two major corporations to control the message and decide who to support.

https://youtu.be/-xVufYXaGg8?si=-n1FPnjr1VGpf0Mc

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Though the sympathies of Democrats of all ages had tended to shift toward Palestinians over time, those aged 23-43 had the largest swing in the most recent poll and are the only group where sympathies for Palestinians now outweigh those for Israelis.

https://www.newsweek.com/democrats-joe-biden-palestine-millennials-1835455

there's an increasing divide between real people and the owner class when it comes to Israel. Our government treats Israel like it has an unlimited budget and can do no wrong because the realpolitik is such that they need a client state in the middle east. Regular, everyday people OTOH are being shown a war of genocide in real time from dozens of different angles and it turns out that watching it happen live invokes vastly different feelings than watching a press conference where Israel and the US congratulate themselves on establishing a daily 4 hour window where they won't bomb civilians unless they really, really want to. It's turning out that there actually is a number of innocent lives we're not willing to trade for one guilty life, and that for a lot of us that number is 1. It's turning out that we're smart enough to realize that evacuation warnings on twitter in english are probably aren't meant for an Arabic-speaking population that lives somewhere where the internet has been cut off and are, therefore, just Israel trying to manage its reputation in the west. We're also human enough to realize that we wouldn't accept someone firebombing our entire neighborhood to rubble even if one of our neighbors was evil and they sent an evacuation warning first, and that the basics of decency demand that we don't ask Palestinians to do so either.

The thing that sunk the Vietnam war in America was embedded journalists. People who have seen war have a hard time defending it. So the war machine adapted: now you only get access to report on the war if your reporting supports the war effort itself ("winning the war") and the effort to maintain moral authority while waging the war ("winning the hearts and minds"). Thing is, now anyone can broadcast themselves to the entire world at a moment's notice. It was already hard to limit the reporting capabilities of 5 or 6 news orgs, now everyone you're trying to have a war with is their own news org. Why do you think they tried to shut down the internet in Gaza almost immediately? Why now are they targeting a platform where anyone can go live and the data is out of the hands of western governments until after it's already in the eyes and ears of western civilians? They're trying to stem the flow of information because if we know what's going one we're not gonna support it.

The US doesn't have any strategic benefit in propping up Israel other than doing so being weirdly important to white voters.

Incorrect. For one, Israel is our key point of contact in the middle east. Also, to your point about the white voters, it stems from historical religious ideology that some fictional magic being named "yahweh" promised the land to these people called "israelites."
Because we have a large portion of our population that are huge fans of this horribly-written abrahamic sci-fi fantasy fairytale, they exude blind support for Israel in the hopes that it will "fulfill the end-times prophecy." The fact that many of these loons have positions of power and decision-making highlights the absurd kakistocracy America has become.........
- Let's not gloss over your first point too much. Like yeah the average American voter probably likes Israel for religious/Zionist reasons, but the American politicians and generals that want to be friends with Israel are definitely in it for the strategic value of having an ally in the Middle East. Like, you think Biden gives a shit about Zionism? Nah. He just likes the military industrial complex
- I know we have outposts in Israel keeping an eye on - as an example - Iran and shit, but why do we have to be enemies with Iran in the first place? Our situation with Israel just seems like a pointless one-way relationship that only serves to further alienate the rest of the middle east from us.
How does the US not have any strategic interest in propping up Israel? This is insane. Israel is the biggest strategic ally of the US in the middle east, do you not know anything about the issue? They protect and fund Israel more than anyone in the world.
- Yeah, the US is the only thing keeping Israel in business. They're useful to keep an eye on Iran, because we don't like Iran, because...?
  Saudis need our weapons, and Qatar likes the money we spend to keep our increasing number of bases there. But these are purely transactional relationships that we can have with anyone.
  I think Kuwait are still fans of the US.
  Other than that, everyone hates us because we protect Israel, and they hate Israel. Why don't we just join the club, and pick up an entire region of strategic allies instead of "Israel at all costs"?

They're denying it because it's not true. Have you talked to gen Z? Young people actually are pro Palestine.
most vulnerable ? US it literally giving them billions vs kids

I see oppressors who use a good old fashioned tiny crisis to justify mass genocide...
I'm sure those dead children were murderous religious zealots
- Yeah, but killing those children is like the one thing hamas and israel agree on right now.
- there was some sort of joke calling someone a fascist here, removed by mod

Before this conflict, I thought Biden had a decent chance at annihilating Trump.

I am not so sure anymore

- pro-Palestinean != pro-Hamas
  Also, Trump is an even bigger puppet for Israel, so voting him wouldn't help either.

I don't give a damn about either. They are both scums.

How society has fallen

Nah, just more educated.
Palestine is the 2nd most oppressed country today, only behind North Korea. All because of the west.
- Palestine is not a country... It's an oppressed region with 0 chance of liberation, since their leaders are more focused on arming their children and raping their enemies' wives than actually developing their infrastructures and education system. And the whole world just lets those leaders keep that power which they keep on corrupting.

Lmao ok

Algorithm probably plays a sizeable part in that, but as an older gen Z fella I have become indifferent to both countries of this conflict. Both Israel and Palestine just race with each other who can check the most boxes in the Geneva Convention rules list. Just leave those 2 to sort this mess out for themselves, It's not like we get a Holy Site bonus effect by owning Jerusalem.

Or just put a stop on this, but this is a naive thinking.

That’s pretty reductive on the Palestinian side no?
Considering more than half the populous wasn’t even born when Hamas took power.
- To be fair to them, it's not as though the Israel Palestine conflict is black and white. It is pretty well known to be one of the most complex conflicts in human history.
  Just about any statement that isn't very well researched and laboriously constructed is like 95% likely to be reductive to some and offensive to others.
  I'm sure someone reads this post as reductive, and I am only tangentially referring to the conflict.
  Edit: beyond this comment we see people continuing to try to distill a multigenerational war down to a paragraph. Brilliant. Y'all should start writing history books since y'all have such a firm grasp on it all!
- Ahh yes, that's a good take, I forgot that the Gaza Strip area is extremely young compared to the average, but please educate me then. I wasn't suggesting that the Palestinians deserve this for supporting or voting for Hamas, they have their justified reason.
  As I recall Hamas has initiated massacres (and before, also installing military buildings in civil areas and probably some more). Just to not sound biased of course Israel had made its fair share of war crimes like bombing civilian areas where military buildings weren't even present and bunch more probably.
  Of course, it's absolutely brutal observing this even more so that the Israeli minister didn't give 2 shits to the Pope's request (ironic), but what can we do? Can we really put a stop to this without escalating things further and risking creating a bigger conflict than it currently is?
The difference is that for one side the "violations of the Geneva convention" are not being carried out by the duly elected government 🤔
- Yeah. Like obviously no one thinks that what Hamas is doing is in any way right, but at the same time Palestine has been shrinking. Palestinians have been treated poorly for decades, and they have no recourse.
  It’s hardly surprising that an organisation like Hamas would crop up. People are being erased and they want desperately to continue living.
  I cannot truthfully say that I wouldn’t lash out in violence if my life was threatened.
- Hmm haven't heard of it, but I believe in your statement.
There's always someone in here to say that both sides are equal.
+20% Monthly Piety and +20% County Conversion Speed
This are the bonus effects for owning it! Makes your dynasty so much more powerful if you then divert from your reign's religion. But be prepared for an holy war against you if you do so.
(this is ck3 btw)
I think people's issue is that you (the west) is funding one side of it.
I'm pretty isolationist too though. Pull the funding to both sides. Let them figure it out themselves (Israel will probably not exist in the end of this scenario).
- Israel has Nukes. Desperate people with Nukes is not a situation we want to reach. It’s so much more complicated then people are willing to admit.
- I think an issue that this event has really highlighted is that governments and the people who live there are not the same thing and often have conflicting beliefs
- Israel is at the front of the war on the west, from Syria to Lebanon and Iran. It's in the west's interest that they exist and be strong to be a force in the middle east and defend the west from falling to jihadist rule.
Both Israel and Palestine just race with each other who can check the most boxes in the Geneva Convention rules list. Just leave those 2 to sort this mess out for themselves
Wow.
- Please educate me then. Narrowed down to this conflict only Israel killed HUGE amounts of civilians but Hamas militants initiated this entire conflict by creating massacres all over Israel.
  Of course, I'm not stating that Israel or Palestine is doing the right thing, it's just sad (and tiring) to see another war where BOTH sides don't take civilian lives into consideration at all. What's your disagreement for me being indifferent? I would be a pretty happy person if someone could put a stop on this entire conflict, but this probably won't ever happen.