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Comradeship // Freechat @lemmygrad.ml
borschtisgarbo @lemmygrad.ml

I got banned from Hexbear (in my opinion!) unreasonably, cannot appeal the ban or anything because my account is based in Lemmygrad

NOTICE:

I realise now that the main problem here was my post on Hexbear, It was shitty and failed to get across my actual views. I still wish I could've been allowed to properly discuss it, but I understand the decision to ban me. Looking at my original post, I can very much get why that is ban worthy, even though that wouldn't be my decision. What happened happened, as much as I'd like to further expand upon my views, I'll try not to waste your time by trying to explain my views that I fully do not understand, that I've developed throughout the process of arguing with people in the comments. I feel silly for making this such a big deal, sorry. You could look through my replies here to see a further expounded on version of this post here. It really boils down to misunderstanding and semantics, I agree with most of the substance of the comments on this post on their face, it is just that often argued in favour of things I didn't mean to. My view of anti-Semitism boils down to, yes it is present, but it is not systemic. As I already mentioned, you can look through the replies if you want to see more of that

58 comments

  • Sympathy for your loss. I hope they unban you (don't make the same mistake though, you have to be clear you're talking of 'anti-semitism' in relation to Israel)

    If you're talking about Israel, I'm sure they don't give a shit

    In the brief period where the post was up, I did not receive any real counter arguments, only people flinging insults who clearly either did not understand the text I wrote or didn’t even read through it. I was then of course banned. I expected the forum named @askchapo to be open to discussion.

    Really? Let's see the comments

    So far you got only 2 unpolite and uninformed comments...

    • Glass half full or half empty is the question here. Hexbear is usually really nice and I didn't expect my post to be received the way it was. I understand the original post was bad, but I wish is would've been given a bit of a chance. I understand the mods choice, but I feel it was done out of misunderstanding. I didn't portray my views properly at all leading to people to think I was saying things I really didn't mean to. I improved on it here and could've done better still as I find myself in the replies here. Don't wanna drag you into a long argument, don't feel obliged to respond

  • The primary issue here is in the broad-brushing and lack of care in the post (e.g. the title), which makes it easy to leave impressions of antisemitism. In your spoiler quote, you say things along the lines of, "if a state that exists in your name commits genocide, of course you will be hated". While you are not explicitly saying so, the sentiment here has a rhetorical next step: "so antisemitism is valid and correct". I'm not saying you believe this, but it would feel natural to have seen that written next by the flow of the rhetoric. The post is playing with being on the edge of antisemitic language and possibly crosses that border depending on how you interpret it. I don't think that's a very effective way of communicating in addition to the possibilities for causing harm.

    Contrast to something like this: "Zionism is perhaps the greatest purveyor of antisemitism on the planet by engaging in ethnonationalist genocide and conflating everything they do with Judaism. In addition to the inherent antisemitism of associating race hate mass violence with Judaism, it inspires antisemitism among those who sympathize with the victims, as there has always been a real risk that those sympathizers take "Israel" at their word in conflating their project with Judaism. Even just adopting and then negating Zionist language can lead to problematic statements."

    Basically the same sentiments, but communicated in a way that is careful about how it is presented.

    I would also disagree that Jewish people, including Ashkenazi Jewish people, are fully integrated into whiteness. They are partially integrated. Most can pass as white basically any time they want to by just not saying certain things. A lot of (most?) white people are going to treat them as white, as will others. But there is still a reactionary group that others Jewish people, follows and maintains antisemitic mythologies, and participates to one degree or another in ensuring there is always a bit of a threat in the background. In the most reactionary circles this does lead to overy antisemitic actions and violence, but the soft reactionaries and edgelords help to pipeline them. There is a dual character of whiteness and Jewishness for Ashkenazi Jews in white supremacist societies and which is dominant various regionally and on an individual basis. So on one hand most Jewish people in the US face very little discrimination due to being mostly assimilated into whiteness. On the other hand, there is still antisemitic violence and rumbles of more if reactionaries become more powerful and numerous and.

    I would agree that antisemitism is not as common or extreme of an issue as islamophobia or anti-blackness and that Zionist organizations lie about what constitutes antisemitism, thus diluting it. But your thoughts that overstate Jewish assimilation into white supremacy may be a case of reacting to and negating Zionist framings too simply and on their terms. Zionist organizations call every single expression of sympathy for Palestinians antisemitic. Those organizations are lying in support of an active genocidal ethnonationalist project. But they also list real cases of antisemitism that should not be dismissed.

    Re: moderation, well it's a friendly socialist instance so I don't want to exactly start a fight about it, but I would say they are quick to ban and bad at conflict resolution and explanations. They tend to describe this in terms of protecting their members, but I think it is mostly a consequence of having basically zero irl organizing experience and therefore making the mistakes of young organizers. Having no interest in listening to or guiding disagreement and being quick to drop a hammer is one of those mistakes. Communists grow out of this if they are self-critical after joining and leaving (or watching implode) a few organizations. At the same time, you should consider that your post was fairly flippant, inconsiderate, and flirted with antisemitism, so I wouldn't say they made a greater error.

  • I'm going to link "Are Israelis Jews?" and say that the idea that "Jewish people [...] have been fully integrated into 'whiteness'" is only really possible if you're thinking of Jews as an abstract, hypothetical, monolithic group, and thinking of whiteness as an absolute and unnuanced quality. That's not really a systemic analysis, is it? That is, as another commenter says, really just saying a bunch of BS pulled from thin air — and I will concur that you should accept the ban and do some self crit.

    • What are they supposed to self crit about though? Bad analysis? From what I've read on this so far, it comes across like substituting talking things through instructively with a permaban. If it is the case that thorough attempts were made to talk things through and they doubled down, or that they were being hostile toward others and not taking hints to back down, then that seems more fair to do a ban. But in general, expecting someone to go off in their corner and work things out is not a solution to ignorance. I would love for it to be that easy, but it takes sometimes painful, patient, and prolonged effort instead. None of us has the "correct" take all of the time. Hell, maybe I'm jumping to conclusions too quickly myself. But it would be kind of absurd if I were to be banned from somewhere for saying this, wouldn't it?

      I know there's a fine line sometimes where it's important not to be permissive of BS and draw lines, but at the same time, sometimes you can get far just trying to connect on the spirit of what someone means while disagreeing with the content. For example, when I read the original post they made, the tone sounds abrasive and hasty to me, but the general sentiment of being tired of zionists calling upon anti-semitism and playing up being victims is nothing new. People can get tired of pre-empting every statement with a big thing about the difference between zionism and Judaism, and trying to word it all just right so nobody gets the wrong idea, like Jewish people are the main characters of world oppression, while Palestinian children are being slaughtered en masse. And it's not like it's just internet posting struggling with this kind of thing, I remember Gabor Maté mentioning something in passing along similar lines when he came on a podcast his son co-hosts. How, if I remember right (hopefully I am not misrepresenting him), he was tired of dealing with the centering of generational trauma and how that related to zionism. I see what appears like an echo of the same theme in OP's post. I do think OP's original post is being somewhat dismissive of how Jewish people can and do still suffer, but any frustration behind it is understandable.

      Jewish people are not made of porcelain. We should do what we can to combat prejudice and discrimination against them, but they can handle a bad take now and then. And someone pointing out, albeit harshly, that there's a clear source of continuing prejudice against them, is not itself the problem; it's the zionist state that is the source of that problem.

      • People on the Internet are oftentimes able to find information about a topic without needing to make a post about it, and people on the Internet are further able to stop for a moment and reflect on how they come across to others before they post. When someone then posts a "question" with a post body that's just a very abrasive and confident ramble, about a topic which could easily be searched, and that person decidedly should know better, then it doesn't really come across as a genuine question — it rather comes across as someone demanding their bad analysis be heard, someone speaking without investigation, someone with an irrational sense of pride, someone who isn't actually interested in learning.

        Jews are not made of porcelain, no, nor am I, nor are most people. But I doubt the "now and then" of bad antisemitism takes is nearly as infrequent as you might believe it to be, and you might also be misunderstanding who aside from Jews themselves might be disturbed by such nonsense. Responding to people being confidently incorrect in any case takes emotional labor, and I'm not going to charitably interpret the "frustration" of a white man from one of the most reactionary countries in Europe, who self-reports as largely only engaging in activism through arguing with strangers on the Internet, just because he calls himself a Marxist-Leninist.

        Jews are certainly not the main characters of world oppression, and Zionists' crying wolf about antisemitism is frustrating, but recognizing that anti-Zionism is a pursuit of both Palestinian and Diaspora Jewish liberation doesn't actually require buying into the narrative that Jews are somehow a special and unique people, or that condemning a genocide requires Jews' express permission. It doesn't even require watching one's wording. Jewish anti-Zionism is in fact a political tradition that should inspire all diasporic peoples and all "traitors to settlerdom".

  • That last comment that you posted in spoilers is wild to me.

    • It is, I know. I made the post in a rush, I wasn't able to properly convey my views. I wasn't expecting to be at risk of being banned for what I was saying, so I didn't at all try to format it properly. It was more of a rant than anything. The main issue I have is that I wish I was given a chance to properly try to convey how I was annoyed at the centering of anti-Semitism and it's over-exaggerated presence in society. I should've been more careful in my wording as it Is obviously a sensitive subject considering recent history, but I wish I was given a chance to actually talk about it. It's the reason I posted it on @askchapo even though it really wasn't a question, I wanted to discuss it

      • I still think that anti-Semitism isn't "over-exaggerated." For example, many AI answers are indeed anti-Semitic and Holocaust denialist, at least a growing subsection of it. History videos made by AI are increasingly Holocaust denialist.

        In addition, I don't think that you're anti-Semitic anymore... but you are a bit misinformed.

        They should've been patient and a bit more understanding, but honestly, knowing Hexbear, they shot first and asked questions later.

        Still, what you said was misinformed.

  • I understand your point of view, and I've made similar arguments before (not all of them though LOL)

    I remember reading (but can't find) a poll showing that ~85% of Jewish people in Europe support "israel" even when 60% of them said that they condemn / were embarrassed in what "israel" was doing.

    I've had the same discussions with my partner who is Jewish (and I'm Palestinian, hah!). Yes, a lot of reported "antisemitism" is just anti-zionism. Yes, antisemitism does not occur as much as other forms of hate (Islamophobia, racism against blacks, asians, latinos, etc), but I wouldn't go as far as saying that antisemitism isn't an issue.

    Yes you could even say that Jewish people did manage to integrate well into white society, but that really only applies to Ashkenazis. But I wouldn't say that privilege is impossible to revoke. The most antisemitic people support israel because they can send their jewish populations there when the time comes. They are perfectly fine working with jewish people when it comes to establishing and protecting a state, but I would disagree that they are integrated at all.

    There is no integration with these racists. They focus on oppressing the easiest-to-oppress class. Nazi Germany did it with Gays, Romanis, Slavs, Jewish, the disabled. Each of these groups were minority groups, the same way America has oppressed indigenous populations, blacks, latinos, gays, japanese, and muslims / arabs.

    The oppression will never end, but they will go up the "caste", so to speak. They will oppress the "weakest" minority before moving on to the next, and they don't have to be weak, they just have to be able to convince the rest of their followers and centrists that this minority group deserves to be put into internment camps / genocided / deported.

    Right now we have Muslims, Latinos, Haitians, and the LGBTQ being targeted by this administration. But if the oppression continues, and they get to be able to round us all up or deport us to CECOT, the job isn't done there.

    Next they'll find another population to oppress, Blacks, Asians, Jewish people. After that they'll target anyone who isn't a protestant or other characteristic that they decide makes one less "pure" than they are.

    The oppression won't ever really end; Jewish people may seem to be safer than Latinos, Gays, and Muslims currently, but they will not have this privilege forever if the fascists get their way.

    You can also argue that "israel" has corrupted many Jewish minds in America. My partner's father is old as shit and he even said himself that after the establishment of "israel" his Hebrew school began to split their focus on religion AND "israel".

    While I believe it is abhorrent for anyone to support "israel" after witnessing the horrors they've committed, I do think it would be more productive to discuss intersectionality with a Jewish person than it is to scream at them for supporting the settler-colony.

    I will also give my own (unwanted) anecdotal evidence and say I have met more anti-zionist Jewish people than I have zionist Jewish people. Maybe it's who I hang around, but even random interactions with strangers who are Jewish that have shown solidarity.

    Please let me know if you want to discuss more!

  • I'm sorry if this is not the appropriate place for this. I was not able to respond in depth on Hexbear, for obvious reasons, so I thought this was the next best place.

    You can feel free to push back on anything I said.

    • I think that we all hand out permanent bans too easily. It makes sense for obvious ragebait accounts and spambots, but for users who are socially awkward or in need of reeducation, a permanent ban is just too long. That is a measure much better suited for lost causes. I can ask @Alaskaball@hexbear.net to consider reducing your ban (maybe to a week or something), but I can’t promise anything.

      I agree that something like the Shoah is extremely unlikely to befall Jewish people again, and seeing so many false alarms over antisemitism would make anybody feel cynical. I take antisemitism seriously and even I have to say that they’re wearing down my morale. It’s like attending a hotline but receiving dozens of calls everyday from little kids over trivial problems.

      That being said, some Jews (especially the Charedim) face harassment from individuals, and occasionally the violence becomes lethal. Nearly seven years ago a neofascist stabbed Blaze Bernstein to death, and of course there was the Tree of Life Synagogue shooting later that same year. I know that those aren’t the most recent examples, but it is plausible that the ordinary incidents usually go unreported because the victims don’t expect the authorities to do anything.

      Personally, though, I think that the focus on antisemitism is too narrow. Jewish people have plenty of problems, and some will tell you that antisemitism is not even in the top five. They have varying responses depending on where they live: pollution, inaccessible healthcare, want of transportation, want of worker’s rights, or even settler-colonialism (it affects one Puerto Rican Jew whom I know), to name only a few examples. Treating antisemitism as Jews’ only problem is inaccurate and uncreative.

      • anti-Semitism is real and it is rising, narratives that isolate the actions of the Zionist entity from the US are probably the biggest fuel atm. It's important for anti-zionists to always call the genocide as the US backed and sanctioned genocide.

        Red hats/fascists don't care about human rights, as quickly as they picked up the rhetoric that "Israel has a right to defend itself" they'll drop it and use Israel (and all Jews) as the scapegoat for US/western failure.

        That's why narratives that the entity controls the US are extremely harmful to Jews as a whole, zionist or not.

        One other thing I wanted mention: I don't care that most Jews are Zionists, it says nothing of Judaism or Jewishness as a whole. It's senile to use ~100 year old ideology to describe the past, present, and future of Jewishness. As quickly as Zionism became popular, it will disposed by Jews in the future.

        My thought process: every group of people has stupid/horrible beliefs (look up how many Muslims don't want secularism, or how many whites consistently practice white supremacy), you don't define a group of people by an ideology you define individuals to an ideology.

        The vast majority of white people in the US did not want to abolish segregation, look where they are now. People are dynamic and generations change.

        That's why I don't hold it against Jews (or anyone for that matter) that believe in dumb/bigoted ideas. EVERY group of people has done that, no one is unique.

    • They have dunk culture when it comes to people a lot and you barely have time to respond; my own comments were one or two sentences long sometimes because 1) I was going through a crisis IRL and didn't always have the time to respond effectively; and 2) they... sometimes made long points but didn't always have much substance to them; it was basically "CPUSA is revisionist." "I don't think anyone in CPUSA is revisionist or believes in such" and then "You're not giving me any reasons to believe that they aren't revisionst" and I'm thinking to myself "What the fuck am I supposed to be RESPONDING to?" (Not everyone did this, and some replies were more thoughtful or well-put, and gave me more to work with, but other people just wasted time, looking back, especially during an IRL crisis, and the "he said, she said" fiasco didn't help), and 3) the replies or comments were sometimes very rude and would spawn off into something else when I tried to call them out on their ad hominems, sometimes, I would mention one point... before someone jumped in and spawned that one sentence into something different, and usually it was rude and didn't have anything to do with the original point. For example, someone blamed my problems on me being Autistic and justified it with saying "I'm Autistic as well" and I'm thinking to myself "Then you know that in the Autistic community, we say 'If you've met an Autistic person, you've met an Autistic person." I do want to add that they were NOT doing it in good faith and were very rude about it too. It's very rude to just mention that and in such a curt fashion, no matter who you are.

      There were a lot of people that, for example, were anti-Autistic or had poor behavior toward Autistic people, such as that mother who made her 3 year old son go to ABA and justified it and... wasn't reprimanded, especially not banned. She seemed to be quite abusive, but eh, nobody did a thing.

      Overall, I could've handled things better, but honestly, me mentioning something like "I like CPUSA" before it spawned off into a whole argument while I was dealing with abuse and trauma IRL was really uncalled for.

      I'm glad that I was banned, I guess, looking back.

    • I think my problem is that I catastrophize (such as when I called the other person the other day a PatSoc before thinking about it some more and realizing that they definitely were no PatSoc or MAGA com, bwahahahahaha 😂) a lot and would sometimes, especially then, freak out about something due to my frayed nerves, but honestly, it was a very un-curious and non-understanding community, largely.

      And that's my personal experience.

      I understand that people may attack you once again and you're sort-of risking your peace of mind for the OP above (since people may, and, I think, will likely come and attack you here, either from Hexbear or even, maybe, from Lemmygrad; not judging, but it's just a prediction), but I'll try to have your back, comrade.

      I hope you can appeal the ban, btw, and get back in, if you really want to.

  • You are conflating Judaism and Zionism though. You were banned because you were saying bullshit pulled from thin air. Do some self crit

    • The fact that a majority of Jewish people still support the modern Holocaust is not "bullshit pulled from thin air". Nothing I said was counter factual.

      Again, I struggle to understand which exact part is conflating Judaism and Zionism. You'd do well to point out which part is problematic here. I'm sure I am repeating myself, but I really want to get it across, I did not expect to get banned for a poorly formatted post. There should've been some form of discussion, as the name @askchapo implies there will be.

      How am I supposed to do self crit if I am not even allowed to hear counter arguments, respond to them, and generally just discuss my views?

      • You’d do well to point out which part is problematic here

        you already know the problematic parts. to reply to your most egregious one: just because zionists exist doesnt mean jewish people arent oppressed all of a sudden.

        here should’ve been some form of discussion, as the name @askchapo implies there will be.

        nobody owes you a discussion. get over yourself

  • About most Jews being Zionists, I don't know why they threw a fit over that. That's a factual statement, most Jews ARE Zionists. I mean, almost half of all Jews globally live in the settler project.

    That shouldn't make anyone reconsider their anti-zionist stance, because genocide, ethnostates, fascism, and colonialism don't magically become better bc it's not white supremacy flavored. To me, I accept that most Jews are Zionists. That's not going to make me support killing babies and blocking aid, bc I don't care what most Jews think. If something is wrong, it's wrong no matter the race.

    This is why people keep getting called anti-Semitic, they're banking on you caring that you're going against the wishes of a majority of Jews which makes you (in their eyes) an anti-semite. If you don't care and tell them "no matter the race genocide is wrong" they'll learn to use another argument. Don't budge, don't let them use their Jewishness (or someone else's) as a bludgeon against your values.

    Unironically being concerned with being called an anti-semite will only associate Zionism with Judaism/Jewishness. That's when actual anti-Semitism starts to rise. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the take that isntrael controls America (and not the other way around) across countless social media sites. Whenever you correct them, they bring up AIPAC, they bring up how people can get deported for bigotry* against Jews but not any other race, the various wars & operations in SWANA for isntrael, etc.

    They're drawing horrible conclusions from actual facts, the days of "Jewish cabals are secretly ruling the US illuminati style!!1!" are gone, now they bring up things that are actually happening or have actually happened.

    I think they overreacted, that place is stupidly toxic and doesn't want to call out/ is very uncomfortable with calling out the mistakes that marginalized people can make. I think you should take the ban as a blessing, there's nothing to go back to except death threats and mods that want to ignore the user base.

    *Bigotry here is any criticism against isntrael. They actually do not care about conspiracy theories and lies against Jews. They have no intention to protect Jews and Jewishness outside of isntrael support.

    • I think they overreacted, that place is stupidly toxic

      Pot calling the kettle black...

      • Yeah, we don't lose our entire instance over abject moderation failures or have cult of personality mods that hand out death threats.. Not really. Try again.

  • One more comment for now (as I'm making too many comments all in one go rather than just one):

    I just want to say that while I prefer Lemmygrad, and really like this place, and even all the people within it, I think Hexbear has its perks and stuff to learn from; it's definitely a boisterous and active community, but, from my own personal experience, is very toxic, at times, when certain topic, at least, are broached. And, additionally, I myself have had friends there and got along with a lot of people, and, hell, I wouldn't mind returning, but it's just too argumentative and I've also noticed strands of, err, anti-Semitic thinking.

    Hard to explain, but seeing it arise, especially in that last screenshot within the spoiler tag you highlighted, is rather much, and goes beyond what I suspected.

    Okay, done. I've got to be somewhere for maybe a few hours; I'll be back here and there, but I don't mean to dominate the comments section! So I'll stop for now until more people jump in.

    G'day!

58 comments