2d ago

Instead of F-35, Portugal turns to Europe in search of new fighter

www.airdatanews.com Instead of F-35, Portugal turns to Europe in search of new fighter - Air Data News

The Portuguese Air Force is no longer expected to acquire the 5th generation F-35 fighter from Lockheed Martin, all due to the review of the US position

The Portuguese Air Force is no longer expected to acquire the 5th generation F-35 fighter from Lockheed Martin, all due to the review of the US position towards NATO.

You're viewing a single thread.

145 comments

If we assume that Portugal would have ordered the same number as Czechia (a fellow European country with a pretty close GDP, population, and military budget that already bought F-35s) and take the flyaway cost on wikipedia of $82.500,000 as the price Portugal would have paid per plane, that's $2 billion in sales that Lockheed Martin doesn't get
- Portugal would probably have bought more, since we have a large area of the Atlantic Ocean that needs to be patrolled not only by sea, but also by air.
  
  You also gotta make sure nobody tries to steal the Azores for their beautiful nature.
- that's $2 billion in sales that Lockheed Martin doesn't get
  And that's just the beginning.
  
  I feel like billionaires might resolve the Trump/musk issue for us. Fucking with a defense contractor's bottom line is pretty dangerous, especially when you have private security (Musk)
  
  I feel like billionaires might resolve the Trump/musk issue for us. Fucking with a defense contractor’s bottom line is pretty dangerous, especially when you have private security (Musk)
  Honestly, I feel it's more likely to display how much the defense industry is just another ordinary industry. They'll whinge and wring their hands, maybe openly support the limpdick opposition if they're feeling particularly pressured, but all that experience in making killing machines is just engineering and marketing. They're not more likely to have clout or death squads (of their own, at least) than other major industries of comparable size and importance, and everything is structured in such a compartmentalized way that they couldn't really leverage that against the government if they actually wanted to throw down.
  The defense industry is more like the oil industry than a cyberpunk future. Influential, not independent.
  
  They’re not more likely to have clout or death squads (of their own, at least) than other major industries of comparable size and importance, and everything is structured in such a compartmentalized way that they couldn’t really leverage that against the government if they actually wanted to throw down.
  now if they have influence over the military... That's what starts coups.
  
  The funniest possible outcome of this would be Lockheed Martin starting up a Tesla competitor
  
  Edit: on the upside, it’ll probably come with a zero/zero ejection seat as a standard feature, so that’s neat.
  
  What about the expertise in suiciding whistleblowers?
  
  What about the expertise in suiciding whistleblowers?
  Doesn't Boeing do mostly civilian aircraft?
  
  :D
  
  They do something for military, so it’s not a docile, purely civilian company
  
  Fucking with a defense contractor's
  Good point. Hadn't really thought of it that way. What an enormous mess..
  
  The enemy of my enemy
  
  #ElbowsUp eh
- Do they get more planes for their buck now?
  
  Disclaimer in that I am not in any way an expert on military procurement: it depends on what they buy.
  There are three European planes that can do similar roles: the Typhoon (Anglo-German-Italian), the Rafale (French), and the Gripen (Swedish). According to this RUSI article, it looks like the Typhoon is probably actually more expensive per plane. The Typhoon was also, unlike the other two and the F-35, designed to be a pure air superiority fighter, so it's more of an F-22 competitor than an F-35 one. Probably not what Portugal is looking for. That RUSI article has the Rafale as being a bit more expensive than the F-35 and the Gripen being a bit cheaper than it. However, the source for the F-35's number is the flyaway cost for the Americans, who did ordered it in huge numbers and also did most (not all, but most) of the development and I would assume get a better deal than others. Further, it's in an article headlined "F-35’s price might rise, Lockheed warns". So I'm just going to hedge my bets and say:
  If they buy the Typhoon, definitely no, but the Typhoon probably isn't the right fit anyway
  If they buy the Rafale, somewhere around the same, and it'll still be extremely capable
  If they buy the Gripen, yes, and it'll still be very good but not quite individually capable as the other options
  
  That's all well and good, but you're also missing a critical point.
  The European Union is very likely to introduce a bill that will massively subsidize purchases of local (EU) military equipment. This will make all EU alternatives much, much more attractive than F-35s.
  This is a great move by the EU - it drives a lot of military spending away from the US and into the local economies, while shoring up its own security as well as preventing being at the hands of a fickle fascist for maintenance and upgrades.
  
  Which in turn will probably also help with economies of scale, making the ex-subsidy cost of that equipment go down.
  
  For once, our (Croatian) government lucked into making a good choice when they went with Rafales instead of F-16Vs.
  
  A last point to consider is that the rafale is cheaper to operate than the F-35
  
  What's your opinion on Tejas (Yes, I know it's not European)
  
  Uhh, don't expect any special insights here
  It looks to me like it's pretty impressive considering that it's the second combat plane ever built in the country, and the experience gained from that is a valuable thing.
  I have to assume that it's less capable and less expensive than the four that I mentioned, based on how it has fared as an export. It seems to have struggled against the European, American, and Chinese offerings, or in many cases have been considered as a trainer by countries that are already flying one of those previously-mentioned ones. Obviously there's a lot of politics involved in these purchases, but if Australia has already bought F-35s and wants Tejases as trainers then it suggests that Australia has a good reason to think that Tejas is a lot less expensive and also less effective at actually fighting a war
  It seems like it suits its role well, though - a cost-effective solution for India's needs, and a way to develop domestic expertise

145 comments