why do they deny genocide when done by china and russia?
why do they deny genocide when done by china and russia?
99 comments
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Because the big players there are not serious idealogues, they are paid a paltry sum through private channels to constantly spread Russian and Chinese disinformation in their larger psyop campaign against the West.
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Highly doubtful. The amount of time, money, and effort would be much better spent elsewhere. Lemmy’s audience is very small.
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Yeah, more likely the actors on Lemmy are just useful idiots parroting propaganda points they've heard elsewhere.
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Time
Basically none on the part of the handlers. Often this arrangement is handled by a private firm that doesn't necessarily have to be Russian or Chinese, I have heard of one operating in Australia. The posters themselves are spending a lot of time, but they're the ones selling it.
Money
Again, they're not exactly paying these guys a living wage, and even if they were, it's peanut crumbs for state-level actors.
Effort
A lot of people say that Lemmy is not worth the effort to demoralize because it's too small, I say the effort is too small to not be worth the investment. I would even say that Lemmy users are self-selected for radicalization in some ways, broadly speaking they are fed up with corporate social media and corporatism in general.
It's also a somewhat important step to have a place they can speak unfiltered amongst themselves, no matter how small the clubhouse is. That's where the real funky shit happens.
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debatable though.
Lemmy is very lefty, by nature, it could be considered that causing dissent within broadly the lefty sphere, in a targetted fashion, such as through the IP conflict, would be considered worthwhile.
It could even be worthwhile for other reasons, preventing people from caring about the ukraine conflict for example.
Though i think other people are right with the useful idiots. I would argue it's still summing up to a propaganda outlet, it's just free labor instead.
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For anyone that needs to hear it, you can have both. You can live in a free society and also plot to bisect your nearest oligarch next time they go to their favorite sushi restaurant
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Exactly. Watch the downvotes for your comment roll in as day becomes night in the west.
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I think you two need to check your tin foil supply.
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I can't speak for the other Lefties on here but I'm a Western citizen and former proud Liberal persuaded by arguments on this very website
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Is there any other kind of genocide besides institutionalized?
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I guess commonplace decentralized pogroms like what happened to Jews and Roma throughout Europe historically
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I suppose a population could try to genocide another population without the government support.
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i don't think genocide is capable of being conceptualized in any way outside of meta conceptualization.
The second you break the outside of the strict definitions of genocide, and start moving to who is doing it, the genocide is no longer relevant, you have larger concerns on your hands. (granted still all tangentially related to the genocide at hand)
But nobody ever thinks about genocide as intrinsically related to something else, it is simply an isolated definition for a specific act undertaken by a given group, against another given group.
if you wanted to break that mold you would use a different term like ethnic cleansing, for example.
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I would never deny any claim of genocide, regardless of evidence, because that's against .world's rules. If someone tells me that France is genociding Belgians, I won't question or dispute it because that's against the rules. But the thing is that when a genocide has clear, documented evidence, I just find that a lot more emotionally compelling. I connect more with what's happening when I can see a shitton of photo and video evidence of dead children in the streets than when all I have to go on is random hearsay. I guess you could say I'm a very visual person.
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Pics or it didn't happen
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This comment was reported.
Instead of taking any actions, I'll just ask this:
If the people committing the crime are great at controlling the media, it didn't happen?
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Good question.
I sometimes think about the fact that JFK fired Alan Dulles, the guy in charge of assassinating world leaders, months before he was assassinated, and that Dulles was then on the investigative committee into his death. Now, does that prove Dulles was behind the assassination? No. But it does make me go "Hmm." But it is worth noting that if that was what happened, I certainly wouldn't have the means at my disposal to prove it. I wasn't on the investigative committee, after all.
Now, I might choose to believe that's what happened, or that there was a possibility that that's what happened. You might not. That's fine. But what would be less fine would be if I declared anyone who doubted my conjecture and wanted concrete proof to be a redfash who blindly believes anything the US government says and should be banned and excluded from conversation.
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does this also apply to drawn/CGI or whatever of people being killed, or is it only real people?
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my theory is that people don't have a high enough mental bandwidth to be mad at and or care about more than one thing because it's literally just permanent rage bait.
Say what you want about the facts of the situation, but you can't deny that most of the posting is just rage bait.
TL;DR stop being mad about things and care about stuff that's actually important to you. It says your mental bandwidth for more important things, like making funny memes. Instead of just being mad.
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I really like the troll accounts. Being told that I should be killed in a genocide because I voted is exactly the kind of absurd humor I love
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And that works perfectly fine. Also, I like Lemmy the size it is now, but people who want to see Lemmy grow into a mainstream platform, are shit out of luck while these folks still roam our midsts
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unless we grow, in which case they get shunted into like 1% corner hole of the community somewhere that everybody points and laughs at.
Though that requires growing first lmao.
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Turks against Armenians then Kurds? Yes
Russians against Chechens? Yes
Chinese against Uighurs?
- One must choose to believe either the representatives of all the Muslim majority countries or US media
Ukrainian Banderites in the Donbas? Exercise for the reader
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Chinese against Uighurs?
China is fairly open that the camps do exist. We also have various credible government leaks describing the size of the operation.
It should be noted that China maintains these are re-education camps intended as an anti-terrorism measure. Given their history, this is likely to be correct. To the west, re-educating to erase ones culture can be considered a cultural genocide. But since it doesn't have the same effect as an ethnic genocide (eg mass killings) the reaction is a lot more muted.
What China does deny is that the people inside these camps are used for labour, e.g. what is effectively slavery. There's decent evidence to suggest this is the case, but the full nature of this is not really well-known afaik.
Ukrainian Banderites in the Donbas? Exercise for the reader
The only ones to ever claim that was Russia, and they never provided any credible evidence for it. It also conveniently came after some political developments in the rest of Ukraine didn't go Russia's way.
The west still has free media outlets (the US less so, but in Europe the situation is better at least). Investigative journalists would definitely have jumped on a story like that if it were true, but they never managed to prove any of it.
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but my sources getting called "nazi blood libel propaganda" is ok, isn't it?
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Do you deny the genocide being carried out by Russia?
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I’m in no position to confirm or deny such a thing right now, with the fog of war still so thick. It depends on 1) what has actually occurred vs what Western war propaganda claims has occurred[1], and 2) which of the various narrow-to-broad definitions of genocide one deploys. When everyone is blaming everyone else of genocide while Gazans are literally being intentionally snuffed out, casual accusations ring a bit hollow.
It’s funny how in Feb. of 2022, Western corporate media suddenly memory-holed their own reporting on eight years of Ukrainian government-backed fascist Banderite paramilitary attacks on eastern Ukrainians, and flipped the ethnic cleansing narrative on its head virtually overnight.
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: 'I want to bring up a warrior': Ukraine's far-right children's camp – video
- Washington Post, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences
- Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties?
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MLs aren't leftists.
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Apparently the core purpose of your account is to just assert this over & over 😂 Thanks for your valuable input
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory#Academic_studies_and_criticism
One of the centerpieces of the cultural cold war was the Congress for Cultural Freedom (CCF), which was revealed in 1966 to be a CIA front. Hugh Wilford, who has researched the topic extensively, described the CCF as nothing short of one of the largest patrons of art and culture in the history of the world. Established in 1950, it promoted on the international scene the work of collaborationist academics such as Raymond Aron and Hannah Arendt over and against their Marxian rivals, including the likes of Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir.
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So the genocide in Gaza is finally admitted by the liberals?
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not a lib, but why would anyone here deny the gaza genocide?
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Because that post is a hunt for tankies. Which is a sport done by liberals who usually support Israel in its massacre.
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honestly Palestine/Hamas was trying to commit genocide too but they got uno reverse carded
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US sponsored hate is behind those genocide accusations.
- holomodor was part of Ukrainian destabilization CIA programs that started the day after Ukraine independence. During a global famine, Stalin had to deal with extortionists outside of Ukraine. Stalin was also forced to pay debt to US in food, and that food was mostly shipped from Ukraine. Ukraine did better than most USSR members. Blaming Stalin for anything/everything is popular mob rule brainworm.
- China faced terrorism in Xinjiang. Fine, some people got arrested. It's main response was education and job creation programs. Xinjiang prosperity has grown higher than average of Chinese provinces, with high investment levels. The genocide declaration is political persecution meant to impoverish the region to destabilize it rather than a principled view where "every more heavy handed act with actual documentation of intentional extermination" (Palestine) would be genocide.
The US has political corruption power in imposing determinations of genocide. Reality has no relevance to US Empire's political will.
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CIA was formed in 1947, Holodomor genocide was 1932-33🤔
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The genocide revisionist propaganda was started in 1990s by CIA supported Ukrainian activists. For sure, at the time, the Ukrainian Church were loud complainers to distance/divide themselves from Russian Church, but there is no empirical evidence of Ukrainians being targeted in a difficult situation.
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As Marco Rubio, or US state department, might say after a video documented destruction of a Palestinian hospital, I do not comment on individual cases, we will "very seriously" look into it. Hamas must stop building their military bases under hospitals, and when we kill and rape them all, it will be 100% Hamas's fault.
There are stories. Judging by another comment that if Xi doesn't like Winnie the Poo references, you should not only believe them, as your partriotic duty, but at the heart of every unverifiable story, you should also place direct blame at top of Chinese government.
That the region is peaceful and free today should score some points relative to such stories.
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Repeat after me: The Chinese military massacred students on Tiananmen square in 1989, and Xi Jinping resembles Winnie the Pooh.
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The Chinese military massacred students on Tiananmen square in 1989.
That is not what happened. In fact, in the square itself, literally no one died.
- Columbia Journalism Review: The Myth of Tiananmen
- Images from Tiananmen 1989 the West never shows (NSFW / CW: violence and death)
- Tank Man video footage. Tiananmen Square, Beijing, 1989
Afterward, in Operation Yellowbird, “brave dissident leaders” were evacuated by western intelligence agencies. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to question whether they may already have had close ties to these agencies before the protests began.
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US sponsored hate is behind those genocide accusations.
ok, source?
- China faced terrorism in Xinjiang. Fine, some people got arrested. It's main response was education and job creation programs. Xinjiang prosperity has grown higher than average of Chinese provinces, with high investment levels. The genocide declaration is political persecution meant to impoverish the region to destabilize it rather than a principled view where "every more heavy handed act with actual documentation of intentional extermination" (Palestine) would be genocide.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/31/china-unrelenting-crimes-against-humanity-targeting-uyghurs
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights
so all my listes sources are us propaganda?
also please give me some independent stuff about that terrorism problem, with independent I mean something, that didn't run through chinese censorship (which I belive you can't deny exists)
also reeducation is inherently wrong tbh, you just force your values on others by the state
also those "jobs" that are created are slave jobs from what I've read
only because some province prospers, does not mean it doesn't repress a group of people, when slavery was still a thing in the us the slaver states actually prospered the most
now, I think the uighur situation is pretty well documented for the fact, that there are no legal independent chinese media outlets
The US has political corruption power in imposing determinations of genocide. Reality has no relevance to US Empire's political will.
ok, but from what I've read they're sterilizing uighur women, kill them enslave them and "reeducate" them (reeducation is a nice term for destroying a culture)
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also please give me some independent stuff about that terrorism problem, with independent I mean something, that didn’t run through chinese censorship (which I belive you can’t deny exists)
Ask and ye shall receive. The series of terrorist attacks are undisputed by basically anyone with any knowledge of the region's history
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China
- 5 February 1992: Two buses exploded in Urumqi, resulting in at least 3 deaths, and 23 injured.
- 27 February 1997: Bombs detonated on three buses in Urumqi, leaving nine dead and 68 seriously wounded. The Uyghur Liberation Party claims responsibility for the bombings.
- 19 August 1997: Two gunmen shot into a crowd after attempting to rob shopkeepers in Urumqi, killing 7 people and hospitalizing 11.
- 1 October 1997: Uyghur separatists detonate a bomb in Kutyun, killing 22 people.
- February – April 1998: A series of six explosions occurred in February and March aimed at economic and industrial targets. The following month, authorities reported that bombs exploded at homes and offices of local communist party and public security agents.
- 19 April 1998: A police officer and two separatist militants were killed in a shootout during a police siege of a separatist hideout. Another police officer was wounded and four separatists captured during the operation.
- 25 June 1999: A bus is bombed by Uighur separatists, killing one and injuring 50
- 4 August 2008: ETIM militants reportedly drove a truck into a group of approximately 70 jogging policemen. According to official Chinese media accounts, they then got out of the truck wielding machetes, and lobbed grenades at the officers, killing 16 people. Police investigators recovered explosives as well as a homemade firearm.
- 10 August 2008: Xinhua reported that seven men armed with homemade explosives reportedly drove taxis into government buildings, in Kuqa, Xinjiang, injuring at least two police officers and a security guard. Five of the assailants were shot and killed. The attacks began at 2:30 am when five assailants drove taxis into the local public security and industry and commerce buildings. The Communist Party chief in Xinjiang condemned the attack as an act of terrorism, and suspected the ETIM was responsible.
- 12 August 2008: Chinese media reported that three security officers were killed in a stabbing incident in Yamanya, near Kashgar in Xinjiang. The report did not specify what the attacker's affiliations were.
- 5 July 2009: A series of violent riots over several days broke out on 5 July 2009 in Ürümqi, the capital city of the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, in northwestern China. The first day's rioting, which involved at least 1,000 Uyghurs, began as a protest, but escalated into violent attacks that mainly targeted Han people. According to Chinese state media, a total of 197 people died, most of whom were Han people or non-Muslim minorities, with 1,721 others injured and many vehicles and buildings destroyed.
- 19 August 2010: According to Chinese media reports, six ethnic Uyghur men were allegedly involved in loading a vehicle with explosives and driving into a group of security officers at a highway intersection near Aksu, Xinjiang. Seven people, including two attackers, were killed, according to police
- 18 July 2011: Chinese media reported that 18 people died when 18 young Uyghur men stormed a police station in the city of Hotan. The men stabbed a security guard and two female hostages, and killed another security guard with a bomb.
- 30–31 July 2011: At least 18 people died in a series of alleged terrorist attacks in the city of Kashgar. According to state-run media accounts, the violence began when two Uyghur men hijacked a truck, ran it into a crowded street, and started stabbing people, killing six. On the second day, state media reported that a "group of armed terrorists" stormed a restaurant, killed the owner and a waiter, and set it ablaze. They then proceeded to indiscriminately kill four more civilians. The Turkistan Islamic Party later claimed responsibility for the attack.
- 29 June 2012 Chinese official media reported that six men attempted to hijack Tianjin Airlines flight GS7554 from Hotan to Urumqi, Xinjiang. The men reportedly sought to gain access to cockpit ten minutes after takeoff, but were stopped by passengers and crew. A spokesperson for the Xinjiang government said the men were ethnic Uyghurs. Xinhua reported at least 10 passengers and crew were injured when six hijackers tried to take control of the aircraft.
- 24 April 2013: It was an incident of ethnic clash that took place between Muslim Uyghur and Han Chinese community. As reported by BBC nearly 21 people were killed in the incident including 15 police officers and local government officials.
- 30 April 2014: A knife attack and bombing occurred in the Chinese city of Ürümqi, the capital of China's Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. The attack left three people dead and seventy-nine others injured.
- 22 May 2014: Two sport utility vehicles (SUVs) carrying five assailants were driven into a busy street market in Ürümqi. Up to a dozen explosives were thrown at shoppers from the windows of the SUVs. The SUVs crashed into shoppers then collided with each other and exploded. 43 people were killed, including 4 of the assailants, and more than 90 wounded.
- 28 November 2014: Militants with knives and explosives attacked civilians, 15 dead and 14 injured. 14 of the 15 deaths were attackers.
- 6 March 2015: Three ethnic Uyghur assailants with long knives attacked civilians at Guangzhou train station, 13 injured.
- 24 June 2015: Group killed several police with knives and bombs at traffic checkpoint before 15 suspects died in armed response
- 18 September 2015: An unidentified group of knife-wielding men attacked off-duty workers at a coalmine, killing 50, among them 5 police officers
- 29 December 2016: Islamic militants drove a vehicle into a yard at the county Communist party offices and set off a bomb but were all shot dead. Three people were wounded and one other died.
Libs be like:
Al Qaida 😡
Al Qaida, China 😍
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so all my listes sources are us propaganda?
Absolutely. Including the US led corruption of UN. You can tell by the lack of documented examples. The undercover propaganda documentaries are jokes that don't prove anything other than "Education involves similar to US pledge of allegiance "right answers" to CCP is good".
People getting arrested for terrorist incitement/acts is not genocide. Education and job creation prosperity is not genocide. Xinjiang is also exempt from 1 child policy. The prosperity includes poverty alleviation, restaurant and cultural funding booms. It is a nice welcoming place to visit. You can see tourism videos on Youtube.
but from what I’ve read they’re sterilizing uighur women,
There are reports of this. (not your slavery claim). Such reports can be coached for political diminishment purposes. The more that you want BS to be true, the friendlier you are to volunteering liars. Uyghur used to be allowed to have more children than Han. New policy is that all are equal.
https://www.ceicdata.com/en/china/population-birth-rate-by-region/cn-population-birth-rate-xinjiang
This happens to be higher than Chinese average, and triple the birth rate of US, with the 2023 bounceback, but even at 2021 (covid) low, over double the US. So why is US genociding itself according to this politicization? There is US politicization that "transgender immigrant cat eating rapists are invading the country" too. Just because the next congress might successfully impeach Biden for such treason, won't make it true instead of political BS. The US, like Israel, is capable of lying, and willing to, and now in fact desperate to make any and every, lie to advance its empire.
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Ukraine did better than most USSR members.
"Better" only in the sense of having a higher death toll: 7 to 10 million out of a total population of about 30 million.
Xinjiang prosperity has grown higher than average of Chinese provinces, with high investment levels.
Those high investment levels being funneled exclusively to Han Chinese who have been brought in to displace the Uighurs who have been put into camps.
The genocide declaration is political persecution
Right, and putting people into camps in order to exterminate their ethnic identity isn't.
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“Better” only in the sense of having a higher death toll: 7 to 10 million out of a total population of about 30 million.
More credible number is: 3.9 million in Ukraine, 3.3 million in Russia, and 1.3 million in Kazakhstan.
Kazakhstan being the highest per capita. Holomodor is a Ukrainian word used specifically to politically get US and its colonies to validate Ukrainian nationalist hatred. The only places that recognized the political "lets demonize Stalin" and make up your numbers to do so.
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He's tagged mate please block, ignore and move on.
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username is uh, weirdly fitting.
99 comments