'We are all Gisèle': French women rise up against 'rape culture' during Gisèle Pelicot trial

not all men but always a man

Pointless sexist bullshit and wrong on its face. I never understood the drive some people have to paint abusive behavior as exclusive to men.

Exactly. If anything, signs like these drag the attention away from the actual issue.
- I mean this thread is a good example of that and why such signs are bad
- And pray tell, what exactly is the "real" issue?
I guess it’s sometimes done in the spirit of forcing men to really consider their actions, because most of the men I know tend to think abusive men are always other men. And we usually have plenty excuses for our own abusive behavior. So it is like saying: “no, stop with the excuses, the problem is you”, in the hopes that this message will also reach its intended audience, ie the many men who are abusive to women in one way or another and, largely, in denial.
But I agree, these kinds of slogans annoy the hell out of me too and are totally not helpful in more ways than one, e.g., when men seek protection from abuse. I guess there are better ways of making a more forceful point about holding men accountable.
- most of the men I know tend to think abusive men are always other men
  I'm sure most if not all abusers are in denial and don't consider themselves abusers, but this slogan gives a pass to ones who happen to be women by insisting that they don't exist at all.
- I don't think that slogan communicates what you're saying here well, if at all
- There's a comedian who told a story, that I feel almost every guy can tell as if it was theirs..
  They had that friend in their friends group. You know, the kne always making misogynic jokes etc. Well, yeah, that guy eventually raped someone.
  You know where he says it was his, the comedian's, fault? The whole group always laughed at those jokes, or maybe didn't laugh, but definitely didn't dismiss them, didn't lecture the guy, didn't tell him it was not ok.
  There's this men's club where misogyny is an accepted business as usual. And it enables deranged individuals.
  So, as a man who's aware of the statistics, you can start doing some prevention: shame other men for misogyny.
  Oh, and btw, fuck the lady with sign. She's a petty sexist using someone's tragedy to support her hate for men.
Maybe it was the 50 men that raped this woman?
Women rapists are more rare. And comments like this only serve to promote rape culture. Maybe stop and think of how many women are hurting before you start screaming sexism and then maybe women will listen to your point of view.
- Women rapists are more rare. And comments like this only serve to promote rape culture.
  They exist, right? In direct contradiction to what the sign is plainly saying, right? But pointing that out is somehow promoting rape culture? That is ridiculous and offensive. They mean to exclude an entire category of survivors. To believe that slogan and uncritically repeat it, you'd need to be willfully ignorant and have the emotional intelligence of a turnip.
  Sex abuse of all kinds is evil and a social menace. By people of any gender, against people of any gender. No equivocation, full stop.
- Maybe stop to think about the male victims of female abusers in this fucking thread before you hand wave us away as "more rare" and "promoting rape culture" by "not being excited about being lumped in with abusers simply for having a penis while our abusers are lauded for having vaginas." You excusing it as rare and that sign pretending women can't rape are promoting rape culture, full stop.
- Funny how ready you are to claim a random person you don't know is an abuser for making a good point.
  And completely failing to comprehend that what YOU are doing is abusive behavior. Real gold star child behavior.
The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Oh yeah, that 4% of sexual assaults being committed by women that are being totally ignored by the media is the REAL problem.
- I can't speak for how their "sexual violence" criterion is defined, but as for the "rape" statistic, most western countries (France probably included) define rape for reporting purposes as "forced penetration", specifically excluding "forced envelopment" from the statistic, and thereby excluding practically all male rape victims with female perpetrators from crime statistics.
  For example, here are the statistics for sexual violence in the year 2011, according to the CDC (note that these are for the US, and may be significantly different for France, though the reporting method is likely the same - there's also a 2013 CDC report with effectively the same numbers for the US):
  an estimated 1.6% of women reported that they were raped in the 12 months preceding the survey. The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.
  And
  The percentages of women and men who experienced these other forms of sexual violence victimization in the 12 months preceding the survey were an estimated 5.5% and 5.1%, respectively.
  Added together, we see that 7.1% of women and 5.1% of men reported being victims of sexual violence in 2011. That is, 58% of victims of all sexual violence in 2011 were women, and 42% were men. For every 3 female victims, there were 2 male victims.
  Now on to the frequently cited claim that more than 95% of perpetrators are men. From the "Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators" section about a third of the way down, keeping in mind the percentages above:
  For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators (more on this later...). In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators.
  And
  For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%), and unwanted sexual contact (an estimated 54.7%). For noncontact unwanted sexual experiences, nearly half of male victims (an estimated 46.0%) had only male perpetrators and an estimated 43.6% had only female perpetrators.
  To help us with the breakdowns of these numbers, earlier in the report we find that:
  1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey [and] an estimated 1.3% of men experienced sexual coercion in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 1.6% of men having experienced unwanted sexual contact in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 2.5% of men experienced this type of victimization (noncontact unwanted sexual experiences) in the previous 12 months
  So, of the 1.7% of made to penetrate male victims, 82.6% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.3% sexual coercion, 80% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, 54.7% were female, and of the 2.5% noncontact, 43.6% were female.
  So, 1.4% of the 1.7% made to penetrate, 1% of the 1.3% sexual coercion, .9% of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, and 1.1% of the 2.5% noncontact.
  So, 4.4% of the 7.1% of men reporting sexual violence had female perpetrators. That is, 62% of sexual violence against men is committed by women (in 2011).
  So, going back to our numbers above, we see that 62% of the 42% of sexual violence with men as victims was committed by women.
  Our final numbers are: 74% of sexual violence in total in the US is committed by men, and 26% is committed by women. Which ain't great, but that feels a lot more realistic than "95%", and it's a far cry from the intentionally misleading numbers you're citing.
  BUT IT GETS WORSE...
  What happens when we look at just rape? Note that first we have to figure out what the CDC means by "rape", because at first "99% of rape is committed by men" looks pretty damning.
  Well, "rape" is defined by the CDC for the purposes of this study as "completed or attempted forced penetration or alcohol- or drug-facilitated penetration". That is, only being penetrated counts as rape.
  Men, on the other hand, get the completely separate category "made to penetrate", that is, "being forced to have sex with someone, just doing the penetrating instead of being penetrated."
  So, 99% of rapists are men because rape is intentionally defined as "being penetrated" to exclude male victims of rape from the statistics. I wonder why...
  Well, what happens when we actually look at those numbers, counting "made to penetrate" as, y'know, rape, because it is rape?
  an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey
  And
  The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.
  Which is, again, because male rape victims are effectively excluded from this definition. Also, we have this:
  an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey
  And
  Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),
  Note that these numbers clearly show that made to penetrate happens just as much each year as "rape". This means that fully half of rape victims are men (in 2011 - the number fluctuates in the other years of the study, but not more than 5%).
  Finally, if 99% of rapists are men and 83% of an equal number of "made to penetrators" are women ... then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex (that is, rape) in 2011 were women.
  Sorry for the wall of text, but I think it's important to debunk this sort of misandrist misinformation.
  Edit: Here's a Time article that confirms these numbers. They also mention that boys under 15 are more likely to be sexually assaulted than women over 40, and are more than twice as likely to be assaulted as girls under 15. Again, this may be different for France, but it's pretty damning for the US.
- I'm not out to debate the statistics of "REAL problem" with you. I'm pointing out that it's counterproductive (and I believe morally wrong) to tell survivors they're unworthy because their abuser was a woman. I get the feeling some people care more about gendering this issue than they do about about victims of abuse.
- The police who recite such stats in my area don’t consider me a victim of my repeated assaults, specifically because of my gender. I guess I should probably pipe down and stop being so uppity and hysterical though. After all my private parts are outside of my body so they’re basically asking to be used by anyone.
- Yeah, the victims of women are just babies who should quit crying about being a victim. As if it's a REAL problem, right? Who gives a shit, they're just men they don't have any feelings they're just here for our entertainment.
- You being downvoted shows that men are never going to listen to women about this.
  96% of perpetrators are men. It’s a statistic that goes against their “women are abusers too!” defense they have to protect their own egos from the reality that one of their friends is likely an abuser.

'Not all men but always a man' seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.

Otherwise, I'm absolutely in favour of rehabilitation, and if necessary, isolation of rapists - of all genders. I hope the court/government can be made to agree

From the article:
The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
It seems that sexual violence has been hidden in plain sight and downplayed heavily by the police and justice system, or simply socially accepted.
It's estimated 10% of people have been victim of incest, here in France. How can you build something safe based on that.
I don't believe our current justice system allows for proper rehabilitation. Second offense for such crimes are still very high (10%?).
IMHO It's a nation wide educational failure and our politicians aren't really keen on fixing this, for now.
- Keep in mind those numbers don't perfectly reflect reality though. Probably a few percents off in favor of women
- Were you responding to something specific I said or just providing more facts?
- How does France legally define rape ?
  If its a gendered definition then the statistics are incorrect because rape can be committed by both sexes
'Not all men but always a man' seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.
Oh, it’s much worse than that: the CDC - the largest medical org on the fking planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
50% of all cross-gender rapists are women, and yet almost 100% of all convicted rapists are men.
What an exemplary case of systemic gender bigotry and misandry in society and the legal establishment.
Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Oh yes that 4% really really must be stopped.
- Yes.
  All of it should be. Why the fuck shouldn't it be stopped too? Wtf?
- Nice try from an overly quoted study done on bad faith, here is a better one that shows, with sources, that said study is incorrect.
  https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

I don't like that sign. Sure, when she gets raped it's probably a man but every time it's happened to me so far it has been a woman, so, no not "always a man."

"Good" news is that while I was forced to have sex (or else what was I gonna do fight her? Yeah that won't end with me in cuffs) it isn't rape because definitionally the worst women can do in my area is sexual assault, and people only care if you're a minor, just try and report it as an adult. Most people just think "oh you're a man you must've liked it" and just minimize it away because we're just sex objects so who fucking cares, I just had to get the fuck over it and I did, but it still pisses me off that I'm literally the victim of this shit and treated like a perpetrator by default just because I happen to have a penis, it's the ultimate "fuck you" on top really.

As a male SA victim I have been repeatedly told that it was my fault for having the privilege. So I guess “you’re welcome” to both of us.
- Women will continue to have their feelings trampled on by men because that's all they're teaching us as kids.

Came here to see discussions about the truly insane case mentioned in the article. Actually found an entire comment section full of 'not all men' vs 'basically all men' threads

Do I want to scroll down? Nah, not really.
I'll just leave this here: No, not all men are rapists. Yes, all men should stand up to them. It's that simple and if you deviate from that formula you dive into rape culture or misandry, depending, are part of the problem, actively, passively, in one way or the other.
As a man, have this attitude (there's subtitles).
As a woman... "Dudes it's only an embellishment" "noone thinks 'all men' is meant seriously" STFU you're being catty you know exactly how often women use covert aggression, use plausible deniability to get away with the vilest shit, even if you don't mean it like that right now, in this instance, it's still how it's perceived, and no, not all men deserve to be treated like that. So cut it out.
The internet loves to argue with a generalization that is only true 9,999 times out of ten thousand.
- Help me with the math on this, if "it's always men" 9,999 out of 10,000 times, and I've personally been raped by two women, what're my odds on that? I must be getting all the rape the women of the world can dish out then, huh?
  Couldn't possibly be that men seldom report, seldom are taken seriously when they do, and even when they are taken seriously in many places women can't legally "rape" so the best they can get a slap on the wrist for is "Sexual Assault" for forcing men to have sex with them? Could it? No waaaaayyyyy.
Then maybe you should understand that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
Now consider: how many women do you see convicted and jailed for rape?
crickets
That’s the sound of massive gender bigotry in play, right there - 50% of all rapists getting away Scott-free, purely by virtue of their gender.
- His point is that is not what the article is about. It's off-topic.
  I get that you're passionate about getting your point across but it's swamping the discussion a bit.

Its a shame an obviously inflammatory sign and clickbait seeking article image has made it so that the discussion is mostly off topic.

Its insane and the whole evil piece of shit that perpetrated his kink of having multiple people raped by omission and literal drugging and rape gets away from conversations by the obvious bullshit of absolutes is insane to me. how about no victim blaming on either side and recognition that rape is awful abuse of power dynamics that occur whenever its viewed as possible.

But also this post should probably be removed because that sign is meant to cause this kinda of angry response and it leads into a lot of hurt victims and happily ignorant people hand waving it away.

There were multiple people raped by omision?
- Told that it was the wife's kink to pretend to be asleep and that consent was given earlier to be passed on since they would be roleplaying as soon as they got in the bedroom....
  Fuck that's fucked up, typing out.
  If stealthing is rape by altered consent then this certainly falls somewhere in that spectrum too.
  reportedly saying he received a message on coco.gg reading, “I am indeed his wife, and I agree to welcome you.” [Source]
  Edit for a quote but yeah I mean this is a huge deal and full of insane testimony that should be the basis of this discussion.
  Basically threesomes where 1 of the participants have not been given a chance to fully consent and 1 was given none. Because of 1 guy who enjoyed the power he felt.

Ok, wow, this is a fucked up thread.

I just came here to say "More power to her!", she's setting an incredible example and we need to turn back the misogyny and just general sexual violence that we've had in society since time immemorial.

Wow, so smart and supportive of you to pick a side and fling shit the other way.
- What do you mean? What other side? The rapist's side? Are you saying you are on the rapist's side?
- You take a statement about how women shouldn't be raped as a personal attack. Thanks for letting us all know to keep as much distance between us and you as possible, very thoughtful :3

My heart breaks for her. I'm glad she gets to see the support of those around her while going through this. And Jesus fuck, how can you even do that to someone? I just cannot wrap my mind of being able to hurt someone like that, and then to keep doing that, and just go on living life. I'm not religious, but I hope that man burns in hell.

My mom molested me when I was a child. Not always a man, and fuck that bitch for trying to pretend it’s so.

Yeah, a uni I went to had a sexual assault course everyone had to take, and the thing that stuck out was that the statistics on women were horrible, but the statistics on men being raped was not statistically far behind. It was something awful like three men in a classroom of 30 would have been victims of rape. On average.
The worst part is that a friend of a friend was actually held down and raped in a hotel by three people in the hallway. But he was so scared of being perceived as gay, he refused to talk to the police, his family, or get PEP for possible STD exposure. Men don't feel like they can come forward for male rape because they will be perceived as gay, and they won't report being raped by women because it's seen as being weak. Fucking horrible, and then the rapists get away and continually abuse people until someone finally breaks the chain. :(
- Since you are in a thread that's about a women who has been victimized for 10 years by her own husband who she trusted and believed loved her, and raped by 50 plus men at his hand, I want to say, that many, many females also don't come forward because they know they won't be believed. They will also be perceived as weak, or whatever excuse rape apologists give. They asked for it. They dressed like a slut. They were walking too late at night alone. They drank too much and passed out which made them fair game.
  It happened to my sister, my brother, my mother, my friends, it's happened to me, it's happened to about 13 other females off the top of my head that I know throughout my life.
  It isn't only because a male will be perceived as gay that they don't come forward. That's a byproduct of homophobia. They don't come forward for many of the same reasons females don't come forward. They believe it's their fault., and they don't think other people will believe them. And also possibly they want to try to forget it ever happened, because it's so traumatic.
  It's because other people don't want to see the truth, and that truth is that human beings are for the most part garbage. We want to pretend this awful crap doesn't happen on a regular basis but it does. It's not an outlier or abnormal, it's a fact of life for nearly most women and some men. It would be nice if no one could experience this.
She was likely raped (by a male, perhaps her father?) much like you were by your mother. It's very callous to refer to her as a bitch because a sign. Women aren't attending these protests because they find them fun. They are victims like you.
- So if I make a sign that says "not all women but always a woman" because so far, both times I've been raped are by women, there wouldn't be an uproar about how it's sexist and excludes woman victims of male abusers?
  Why should I be cast aside, lumped in with the "always a man" crowd as an abuser, while the women who abused me are lauded as victims? Why not just care about all victims of abuse? Why do we say "well you're only 4% so you don't matter" or "sit down and shut up we're not talking about you" whenever male victims just want to be fucking included in the conversation and not forgotten about for once, and by the group that should be recognizing us as compatriots in our trauma at that?
  She doesn't have to put us down to make herself feel better and we're rightfully angry that it happened again.
- Ok I was always abused by multiple women, time to make a sign thay says always a woman
- Funny how you jump into assumptions and justifications for her without knowing a thing about her other than her gender and the signpost she has, yet wag your finger at another victim for having a reaction to a message invalidating a ton of rape victims, and also lumping them in the same group as their abuser, as if it was an inherent, genderlocked flaw.
  If you don't see that as a double standard, then you should really read my last paragraph again and reevaluate your biases.
- It's just exactly like the people who saw "black lives matter" and thought they meant only black lives matter. They see the sign saying "not all men but always men" and ignored the first part and focused on the second part. Then proceeded to ignore the actual subject of the article (you know, the woman who was continually raped without her knowledge or consent for over 10 years by 50 or possibly more men and the fact that the defense is arguing that "maybe she secretly knew and liked it"). And are completely focused on being outraged by the sign.

Imagine being the victim of a female pedophile and seeing that sign

imagine taking this story, about where a woman was systematically drugged and raped for OVER 10 YEARS, and going "ah yes but what about the men?!?". I truly feel for the men in the comments sharing their stories, and I hope they continue to share and raise awareness, but Jesus y'all not the time

Let me ask you a question.
If this were about a gang of black people committing some crime, and as a protest someone was carrying a sign that said "not all black people, but always a black person" would you be telling people it's "not the time" to point out the obvious and blatant racism?
Take your own fucking advice. If men talking about their own rapes triggers you so, then you are the same crap you are crying about. You are sexist beyond belief.
It's never the fucking time for male abuse victims to speak up and tell their stories, we're always told to shut up and deal with it.
- I’s never the fucking time for male abuse victims to speak up and tell their stories
  It's never time to break the status quo, even if it means liberation for those considered in minority groups (in this case people assaulted by women vs people assaulted by men). I'm paraphrasing a MLK article passed around a few weeks ago.
  In his letter sent from jail, King went on to criticize white moderates. He said that a white moderate is someone “who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom.” Such a person is, according to King, someone “who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’”
I was molested by a woman as a child. That sign just makes me see red, I'm sorry if my trauma and triggers are inconveniently timed for you
Yeah exactly. I'm a man who was assaulted as a kid by a woman. Shit happens. But looking at what shit happens most often - it's sexual violence perpetrated by men against women.
I don't know how we change that. Maybe by continuing to level up the power dynamic between men and women, I feel like we've been making some progress with that over the past century. Finally. But it's more than that, there are too many idiot arseholes who think they can have anything their fists can beat down. Almost all of them are men.
Pretty much every girlfriend and female friend I've ever had has had bad experiences with men. Women I have cared about over the years have had experiences across the spectrum from cat calling and comments back when they were kids in school uniforms all the way through to stranger rape. Domestic violence isn't uncommon either.
I dunno, I wish I had a solution. It fuckin breaks my heart - when a close friend or a partner opens up about what happened to her and there's nothing you can do, it's years too late, you have these thoughts like if I'd been there I could have stopped it- but it happened years ago and you are fuckin helpless to do anything except maybe hug her if she's comfortable with that, or if not try to tell her it's over, she's safe and stronger now, whatever you think might help.
You don't realise how harmful sexual assault is until you've been unable to help someone you love. The key word isn't 'sexual', it's 'assault'.
Shit like that makes me fuckin ashamed to be a bloke. I don't know how we fix this, but I've got two suggestions for a good start - firstly, we don't do that shit. Never, there's never an excuse. Secondly, we fuckin shut down other guys, even if they're our mates, if they start with that sort of talk.
Yeah, there's wrong uns in whatever gender. But in terms of atrocity it's us men well in the lead. We gotta change that. I think we can at least fuckin try.
- thanks for being one of the reasonable ones in this comment section lol. and it seems you're doing a pretty good job of trying to enact change. keep it up, it's a team effort :)
  sorry to hear about your story as well, hope everything is going well for you now.
- no that's not true at all. you're supposed to talk about it, to share your stories, to go to therapy, support groups. to make online spaces to discuss and heal and grow. same as women. unfortunately, the only time I ever see men share their stories is when it takes away from a women's experience, which is disgusting as has been happening more and more on this app.
The problem is the sign in the thumbnail. It sure as good god fuck is not always men and you're a disgusting liar to claim that.
- jesus man, not everything is about you. sure, not all men are sexual predators. easy enough to agree on. but the point is that all men have had opportunities to call their peers out on creepy behavior, whether it's catcalling, looking down on women, sexualizing them, etc. and failed. each of these 50 plus men in this story could've reported this as odd, or talked to the women and made sure she was ok, or hung around until the drugs wore off to double check, and didn't. each of them were given an opportunity and they took full advantage of it and of her. so yeah. all men have failed women at some point, and each of your MANY comments in this thread are honestly just another example of that, taking away from this poor women's story to wage your personal crusade.
- All men can walk around at night or alone never thinking about it though
It's the same argument people made during the black lives movement by saying all lives matter. Of course all lives matter, but right now we are talking about black lives cause they are the ones hurting. Woman are the overwhelming majority of sexual abuse victims. We are talking about them right now. I say this as a male who was a victim of abuse by an older woman.
- Talking about it is never a problem, but a sign that says "always a man" is factually wrong and invisibilising, it is more harmful than helpful. It's right to point it out, I think
- This doesn't quite work. In fact, I think it's the opposite.
  The way I heard it described, which really drove the point home, was that imagine you are at a table and the food is being passed around. Every time it gets to you, the food is passed right past you. Everyone has a full plate except you. You say "hey, I deserve my fair share!" and then some jamoke says "we all deserve our fair share." It's missing the point, because you currently aren't getting your fair share, and your unique plight is being ignored.
  The sign in the case here is diminishing the fact that there are victims of females. They aren't saying "women are unique victims" here, they are saying "men are unique perpetrators."
  Without the sign, this conversation doesn't happen. You should be on the side of everyone else here and should be saying "hey, keep your misandry to yourself, this is about female victims" but instead you're arguing "we should just let blatant misandry slide right now because we are talking about a female victim of a man." It would be like (as I said in another post) letting blatant racism in a protest slide because the perpetrator was black and the victim was white.
- It's not the story in general, it's the "but always a man" that's objectionable.
- Oh yes the ever ignored male rape victims who are indignant enough to speak up in the face of a sign like this aren't included in "the one's hurting" because you're literally ignoring their screams for help from the movement that is ignoring them almost harder than the rest of the world at large, by literally lumping male victims in with abusers and woman abusers in with victims, and then turning around and pretending we're the fucking problem for being mad about that.
  It's not enough I have to be raped by two different women, I have to be treated like an inhuman unfeeling monster simply because I have a wiener while I watch my literal abusers be praised for being the right gender, and then when I say "hey maybe don't unfairly treat me as a pariah" I get told to sit down and shut up because "we're not talking about you right now?" Well guess what? We certainly are talking about me now whether you like it or not. I'm sick of it if I'm being perfectly honest and I'm not going to let people pretend I'm culpable for the actions of others any longer, nor will I let them silence me and excuse my abusers with signs like these.
This 100%. If men being raped is such a massive issue to yall, make your own protest about it, don't shit on the protests of marginalized people bc they're fighting for their own rights and not yours

I think I would have more sympathy with those focusing on the "not all men but always a man" sign if this weren't in the context of a woman being drugged by her husband and then said husband inviting about 50 random men to rape her, over 10 years.

One of the worst times to advocate for men's rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you're leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.

I agree with you. Yes, this is not the time nor the place to go full on men's rights activism, 100% correct.
But if someone tells a rape victim his experience does not account because he part of the 4%, then nobody won anything at all, and I will speak my mind about such a heinous statement, the same way I will speak my mind about any one telling Woman shit like "It happened bc you dressed so seductive", "You sure he heard you saying No?"etc etc. .
One of the worst times to advocate for men's rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you're leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.
Agreed. Unfortunately there's always gonna be a whataboutism as long as men feel unheard...
People can lose empathy when they think the world is ignoring them. It's taken me years to move on from people telling me to "man up" or "get over it" about my SA.
- I really hope that at some point male victims of sexual assault will work to create a movement of support. It’s not ok that y’all get told to man up, and it’s not ok that y’all are often used as a way to shut down discussions of sexual violence against women.
Absolutely agreed.
Something I used to hear regarding feminism was that it also fought for men's rights even if indirectly for equality purposes. While I wouldn't say it's accurate of the movement now, I will say that it'd be a nice thing for men's rights groups to pick up. If these movements want to be heard then they must be willing to listen to the voices of women and be willing to bring their own to justice.
- Yo, feminists have been leading the charge on shit like paternity leave (FMLA was feminists), battered men's shelters (now there's four! In the country!) and getting equality of rulings on spousal abuse or visitation rights. Don't buy into the alt-right BS about how the movement used to be good but now it's just full of all those self-centered women, and I only hate the current version. It's a really common line, and it's bullshit.
- As a modern feminist I think that’s one of the differences between the third and fourth waves. The third wave (and early second wave) had a strong emphasis on “feminism is for everyone” and was much more “theory based” if that makes sense. The fourth wave is generally understood to be defined by the era of mass social media. It’s been hardened by things like gamergate, the me too movement, and the rabid opposition to the third wave by reactionary men refusing to accept that it was the most pro man wave feminism saw. I don’t think it’s tactically wise or theoretically sound, but I get and feel the anger. That said I’m generally more pro third wave as a whole, including thinking bell hooks really understood how patriarchy negatively impacts men.
  But yeah, modern feminist culture is jaded and angry, and for good reason. And I do agree that a men’s movement to deal with y’all’s issues would be incredibly helpful so long as you’re able to keep the reactionary voices out of it. Because from this woman’s perspective, a lot of men really need to develop friendships based on mutual care and understanding. Women can’t fix the malaise men are currently showing, and reactionaries can only make it worse.

50 codefendants in a case against one woman? How horrific.

Thank you to the French women doing this. However, since this is France, my biggest worry is this will be shot down with a big red flag/note saying:

How can we fix this when the government keeps protecting the real rapists: minorities

Yeah Western Europe culturally not looking too clever these days re right wing shit. Not that America is doing any better mind.
- Whole world is looking quite pathetic right now.

Husband aside, that's 50 separate people who thought this was okay. Ffs

Allegedly, they didn't. Multiple men were contacted through a swingers website, and allegedly led to believe she was a willing participant pretending to be asleep, instead of what she really was, the victim of a disgusting monster, drugged and undressed without her knowledge, for the pleasure of a sick monster.
To the point where one of her abusers, fully aware of what he did, wrote to her to apologize from jail, realizing what he had done under false pretenses, and aware that by not doing his due diligence, he raped her in the literal sense of the word.
- I would hope that one that would be interested in this type of stuff would be meeting the affected party first :/
Because he said it was their kink to them.

Terrible fucking sign and tone deaf af

I'm not one of them, but the problem is the sign in the thumbnail. Without that I doubt it would've upset as many people.
If she held up a sign holding "all gays should die" would that be enough to talk about? A protest for a good cause is not a free pass to spread untruths. There are some men in this thread who were actually raped and you rail against them for sharing their story. The trial still goes on, it's not like people here are in favor of the rapists?
To use your inflammatory language: it's unbelievably stupid and fragile to believe you get to direct the contents of the topic. Let the adults talk
Imagine I'm selling a nice camera tripod but in the commercial people are beating each other to death with it. You walk into a Lemmy post about it and people are only talking about the ridiculous commercial. You gonna stand up and be like "Why isn't anyone talking about the product!?" like that's the real topic?
We're not in here talking about what happened. We're talking about the news. The news is saying my half of the population is bad because of their story which I'm half a world away from and have no reason to believe.
terminally online men try not to take a picture of a random sign in an otherwise unrelated article personally challenge (impossible)
Reading is fucking hard I guess

The heck you mean "close enough", 4% is not within margin of error, and even then this is a grave accusation to lump on an entire demographic.
Ooh good, only 4%? I'm an anomaly and deserve to be categorized with the aggressors instead of the victims because while I am the victim of two different women I happen to be a male, so fuck me!
Dafq is wrong with you. You just chose to ignore and invalidate a horrible experience of thousands, if not millions, just to defend a random person's Sign? Maybe take a step back and think again.
Certainly close enough says the expert. And then someone in the other thread explains how the legal definition is so fkd up it essentially excludes male victims. Tell me about real sexism here.
But you know what? It shouldn't fuckin matter either way, because if it does to you, you're the problem.
Removed, civility.
Yeah I also saw the similarly to ALM in the comments of this post.
Yes, women also abuse men (and also other women), but the vast majority of cases that appear before a judge involve men as the perpetrators. I'd want to tackle the big problems first if I have to prioritize cultural (and sexual) progress of a society.
But I also recognize bias exists at pretty much every level of this process, inside or outside of a courtroom. I think we should still value evidence over hearsay, as was demonstrated in a case like Depp v. Heard, yet show compassion for victims because they need to feel safe to speak up, no matter the gender.

guys always is an embellishment. it's almost funny that not all men became not always men. obviously not always men but if you think the numbers are comparable you're living in a fantasy land.

Most men never report, or if they do it's ignored. I've only told one person irl about the 2x it's happened to me (both times I was forced by women btw, how's that for "it's always men" hmm?)
MAYBE if whenever we claim "it's all men" or "it's always men" or some such sentiment "it always devolves into a discussion about how it's not all men," MAYBE it's time to stop doing that so the conversation can fucking progress? Nah let's keep up the tribalism, it's more fun to sow division than actually work on the issue at hand. Ffs.
- I think it's more that as a non rapist I don't really take it personally when women talk about concerns about the general attitude they receive from men.
The numbers are also suppressed for men because we are not believed or taken seriously whereas women are typically believed by default.
- I mean even considering that. if we magically learned the real numbers today there should still be a grand canyon between them. if you think it's any close you're either fooling yourself or biased by personal trauma.
  just as a note: the argument I'm making is not based on any essential characteristics of men vs women. I'm not arguing men are biologically coded to SA more or whatever. it's about societal conditions. conditions which, by the way, contribute to the problem you're talking about.
but if you think the numbers are comparable you're living in a fantasy land.
The CDC - the largest medical org on the fking planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
We’re not the ones living in fantasy land -- you are, by either ignorance or malice. Which is your source of gender bigotry and misandry?

Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.

Ok, so not so men but 96% of perpetrators are men.

This very precise statistic comes from a single study made in bad faith, over 20 years ago. If you want to read a more recent study, with linked sources, feel free to check https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/
- That percentage came from the 2021 report by the French government. This is not outdated information. And it's pertains to France not America.
- Dude just shut the fuck up about that study xD most rape is done by men towards women, quit acting like that's just not the case. Women deserve to not be raped, can you just say that with no qualifiers?
- No, no one is complicit in anything by their very existence. You don't get to blame people for other people doing something bad in a group they didn't choose to belong to.
- actually decent men are aware that they are complicit by their very existence as men under the patriarchy, and invest their energy in being better and calling out their fellow men to try and improve your collective reputation
  This is bald-faced, shameless bigotry and reflects a real lack of self awareness
- actually decent men are aware that they are complicit by their very existence as men under the patriarchy
  Could you fucking imagine saying this about any other group of people
- Reported.

I find it incredibly interesting that male victims are exclusively brought up in conversations about female victims, just as hate crimes against white people are exclusively brought up in conversations about hate crimes against African Americans, or how hate crimes against Christians are exclusively brought up in conversations about hate crimes against Jews and Muslims. If you use the pain of a group as a form of whataboutism then fundementally you do not care about their suffering, what you are doing is creating a competition that nobody will win. After you're finished using your group against another group do you truly care about them? I see many people here talking about male victims but how many people here support movements like mens liberation?

Yeah it's our fault we're upset about being lumped in with the "always men" abusers crowd while our rapists are lauded as "never abusers" on signage like this. How dare we be so uppity to engage our anger with that sign directly.
I'm literally in here saying "that sign is a lie and it makes me angry, as a male victim of woman rapists," we can talk about "stop raping men too" and "charge women for rape not just 'sexual assault' when they compel sex" later, right now we're talking about "don't erase us with signs like these, please fucking include us in the movement" and we probably won't stop doing that until it happens. Why must there be "I don't care about male victims" and "I don't care about woman victims" groups? Can't we just join forces as victims vs abuse?
For an exercise, check out other articles posted about Gisele's case, and look for comments about male victims. Most people just post in support of her, or in hatred of her abusers.
The reason why this conversation exploded on the topic was the picture chosen for it. It is meant to be divisive, drive engagement and thus, ad revenue.
We're all being farmed for engagement, which takes away from what is important, seeking justice without looking at genders.
That picture is very triggering to the many, many victims of rape with female perpetrators, especially if the victims are male, hence the outrage.
- Yeah but I find it funny that those same people who say "well its not always a man" very often also say "well x is a minority therefore they shouldn't receive any representation whatsoever". In addition I would personally argue that most people here claiming to be victims are most likely lying (who knew people on the Internet could lie).
Instead of thinking of it as competition, think of it as people simply reminding others that "all rape is bad" or "all hate crimes are bad".
- Thats like saying all lives matter specifically after an African American gets brutally killed by a cop. Obviously all lives matter but its simply not the time nor place when the conversation was about hate crime against African Americans. In this case its absolutely distasteful to say "all rape is bad" when the topic is specifically about a female victim and a male perpetrator.

And yet, what no-one wants to face is the fact that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:

And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.

I mean, yes - let’s lock up convicted rapists. But if 50%of cross-gender rapists are women yet almost 100% of convicted rapists are men, there’s some seriously weapons-grade gender bigotry at play, there.

A legal system that is truly based on equality should see about a 50/50 split of male/female rapists convicted, and for largely equal time served as well.

I think you are hand-picking numbers here. The most current CDC Report on Intimate Partner Violence does not support your claims. https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/NISVSReportonIPV_2022.pdf
- The report you picked excludes quite a lot of victims as it's about intimite partner violence which it defines as:
  The term, intimate partner violence, refers to any physical or sexual violence, stalking, and/or psychological aggression by a current or former dating partner or spouse.
  For the full numbers not just for intimate partners you want this report https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/nisvsReportonSexualViolence.pdf which confusingly has the same title. It states 2.3% of women raped in a 12 month timeframe and 0.3% of men being raped and 1.3% made to penetrate in the same timeframe, so 1.6% of men either raped or made to penetrate.
I took a look at the CDC report. Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story. It's interesting to see why there's a jump in those numbers for the 12 months preceding, but otherwise if you look at lifetime numbers women are victimized at significantly higher rates than men.
an estimated 19.3% of women and 1.7% of men have been raped during their lifetimes
that's being penetrated, I think it doesn't include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
side note: I don't know how the article got numbers for "being made to penetrate" specifically, the CDC article doesn't seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong. I only saw the 1.6% of men reporting "unwanted sexual contact" in the last 12 months, which is compared to the women reporting at 2.2% of women, which is while still almost 40% higher, closer than lifetime experiences which are estimated at 27.3% vs 10.8%. Guess which is which.
An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences.
This includes being made to penetrate and other things, again if you can find where the 1.6% comes from please let me know.
An estimated 15.2% of women and 5.7% of men have been a victim of stalking during their lifetimes
this is interestingly one of the categories where it is not as close in the last 12 months: women's rate double men's. not central to my overall point but it is surprising because if anything I expected this to be closer than other categories, considering social media making stalking easier. just a note.
here's an interesting part about "always a man":
women are predominantly predated by men in all forms, but men are predominantly made to penetrate and coerced by women (I guess this is expected more than men would be doing this?), while penetrated predominantly by men (I guess obvious) and suffering other forms of sexual predation including stalking by a relatively even rate of men and women.
That sounds like it all comes pretty close to "always a man".
- that's being penetrated, I think it doesn't include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
  Right, in many municipalities it's impossible for a woman to be charged with rape for forcing someone to have sex with them through coercive means. Until that is no longer the case "men rape more than women" is like saying "you're more likely to starve without food." No shit, because definitionally woman legally cannot be charged with rape for raping.
  You see how that skews the data, right? Sure "it's all men" if you don't count the women, why would that surprise anyone?
- Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story.
  How's that relevant? It looks at one year and within that year the number of rape/made-to-penetrate victims is roughly equal for men and women. Unless there was something unusual happening that year or the same men are made to penetrate more often then women get raped, then if you extend the timeframe the numbers should change similarly for men and women.
  side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong.
  From the 2011 study in the Results section:
  For men, the lifetime prevalence of being made to penetrate a perpetrator was an estimated 6.7% (>7.6 million men), while an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey.
The share may differ - I'm not aware of it being equal and you bring up interesting stats right there - but regardless, men can absolutely be victims of all kinds of abuse, and we have to treat it seriously.
Yes, men forced to do what they don't like or coerced to have sex is rape, and same for women.
- Some American jurisdictions can’t even properly report a male victim of rape or sexual assault because their software is hard-coded to assign the victim as female and the perp as male.
  Plus, the vast majority of men have been brainwashed into thinking that it is impossible for a woman to rape a man. So many of them don’t even see their rape as a rape, and frequently blame themselves.
  And for the cherry on top, male rape victims can and frequently are forced to pay child support to their rapist if a child is conceived, thereby further traumatizing them. This happens even if the male victim was a minor - upon their 18th birthday they are hit with tens of thousands in arrears, and face jail time if they cannot immediately begin paying. Imagine - jailing a rape victim for the product of their rape!!
  Think of how this would go down if the genders were swapped, and then ask yourself: why isn’t it going down like that as it currently is?
  Because men don’t matter. Because men are trivially disposable. Because if men cannot provide something of value, they are worse than useless: they are a threat to society and need to be violently coerced into being useful. It’s why so many men are saying, “thanks, but no thanks” to the various “traditional” societal expectations of them (career, marriage, and even relationships entirely), and are going their own way. And I don’t blame them one bit.
In the context of this post this is disgusting to bring up.
This doesn't have any bearing on what this old lady was put through.
- In the context of this comment section, and the image that was chosen to lead the article, it is not disgusting and it simply makes sense.
  She is a fucking hero, she is brave and she gives hope to us rape victims. But if on the same breath you praise her and the people who support her, and dismiss a fuckton of rape victims just because the perpetrators of their particular rapes were women, then that is bound to raise a significant level of discomfort and take away from what the story should be, giving support to the victim of The Beast of Avignon and all rape victims, encouraging them to come forward.
So basically, "not all men and not all women" should have been the slogan in the first place.
- So basically, "not all men and not all women" should have been the slogan in the first place.
  Yes. That is a very even and equal statement that properly balances the reality of the situation.
  But equality was never their goal. That’s why those who have rationally and logically studied the ideology call the practitioners female supremacists, and are likely to call themselves egalitarianists.
Oddly defensive response you have.

Oh shit the MRAs are out in force in this thread 🙄

Real Redditor kinda behaviour going on here tbh.

This is only natural because the post features a picture of a woman holding a highly misandric and hugely misleading sign.
Besides, it's one of the rare venues to talk of what's important. And when there actually are rare posts or comments regarding abuse of men, many women flock in as well to tell about women rights.

Fuck off. I was abused by my mother. She looks like the kind of trash that would holf a sign like that.

Where is all this passion for male victims of rape when people aren't protesting the rape of a woman or women in general?

This is a rhetorical question

Edit: nevermind, I think I misread that.

Anyone dug up statistics of how many rapes of women are by women? No?

- No. My argument is that all the stats about men being raped in the comments ignores that the protest sign is about women being raped. That is all.
Why? Cos I'm pretty sure it's going to be lower than the number committed by men.
- Less than men is not the same as “always by men.” I think that’s what people take issue with.
- Exactly

Fuck off. I was abused by my mother. Down voted by the woke for not being abused by a man. Typical.

Media Bias Fact Check | bot support

Mods, I know you’re in this thread, why haven’t you banned this paid advertisement spam bot that nobody wants?
- Some of us find it useful, although a bit excessive sometimes, not a mod here, just a random user who likes looking at the biases so I don't waste my time on articles to what could easily be equated to "MAGA.com" at a glance, instead of actively having to go look for resources.

You're trash. The numbers do not reflect reality because men are ignored and disbelieved because of people like you.
Women are trash, two different ones have raped me specifically and the treatment I get from women is "men are trash." Fuck y'all right back then howboutdat?
(Edit: Well now that the OP's "men are trash" has been removed by the mods I feel comfortable admitting that I do not actually feel that all women are trash, I was simply trying to make a point to that commenter and those who share the viewpoint that my gender is one homogenous hivemind and are solely "trash," the point being that it's an equally useless and inflammatory generalization regardless of which gender is supposedly "all trash." It's just easier to see when it's said about "you" for some it seems.
In reality, there are both good and bad people of every race, creed, ethnicity, gender, and just about every other metric people often use to separate us into little groups and file us away in our little boxes we better not stray out of. "Men" are no more "singularly quantifiable as trash" than women, POC, etc. To get to people who are 100% trash by group, you have to whittle it down to "rapists" or "human trafficking people" or something where their decisions and actions have shown them to be bad, being born with a penis or a vagina is simply not enough information to qualify an individual or group as "trash."
I hope I live to see the day where we can stop pretending that this issue is a gendered one. While one gender may experience it more than another at its core that isn't the issue, the issue is victim VS abuser and the longer we deny that the longer we'll keep fighting about "men matter too" "nuh uh they're only 4%" until the goddamn cows come home.)
- All those words just to backpedal on your obvious sexism and keep whining about women shouldn't be protesting against rape. I have nothing nice to say to you, so I'll just block you and be very happy I never have to see trash like you again :3
- Also it's current year, if you genuinely still believe "men are trash" literally means every man is a rapist, you're just stupid or wilfully misinterpreting it. How about you actually try engaging with feminists with some good faith next time, rather than pretending we're the scum of the earth for not catering to men 24/7
You don't know the real numbers
All Lives Matter would've been a better protest slogan to begin with
Men are not trash, women are not trash, some of both are, you definitely belong in there regardless of your gender identity. You can be a non-binary trash if you prefer, but I can guarantee you're trash.

Let's see how long it takes for rape apologists to show up

I'm a man who was sexually abused by a woman when I was a child. If I point out that the sign in the thumbnail is both untrue and is a dangerous oversimplification am I a rape apologist?
- At least 3 unhinged morons agree that you're a rape apologist.
I don’t think that happens here? One of the reasons I’ve stuck with lemmy is that it’s relatively nice.
- The commenter probably saw the "Always a man" part of the protest sign and is daring someone to deny it.
  It's an unfortunate sign to feature in the main article picture because it distracts from the story. There's no issue focusing on one part of an issue (victimization of women) and not all parts (sexual abuse and rape in general). But denying the larger problem exists is counterproductive.
- Because the braindead instances get blocked by most, and I love it ❤️
- I'd say it (E: not just rape apology, but misogyny in general) only happens a tiny margin less than on the rest of the internet, which is to say it still happens a whole fucking lot, even if they are sometimes a little less blatant with it.
  E: in case the replies and the up/down vote ratios in this post alone isn't evidence enough, the mod log sure shows what positions are defended in one of the biggest spaces on here.
Bro they've been here the whole time, they're just apologizing for woman perpetrators of male victims because it's "only 4%" so who gives a shit about male victims, lump them in with the perpetrators.