Don’t ever hand your phone to the cops

I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but what is the best way to refuse to do this?
Say you’re in xyz situation and a cop demands your phone. You say no. They get angry, maybe make some threats (whether true or not), etc.
What is the best way to say no, you aren’t comfortable, come back with a warrant, without pissing them off royally in such a way that things end up worse for you?
- in such a way that things end up worse for you?
  IANAL. This is what they want you to think, "just do this and it'll be better for you". It might be a short term hassle waiting for the drug dog, or being arrested while they conduct their investigation. But long term it's the court that matters. And the court will throw out anything obtained illegally or the cops do illegally.
  Cops are not there to help you, they just want to find someone to pin a crime on. The only one that will help you is your lawyer. Stfu. Don't talk to the police.
  
  This. You have rights, but the police will lie, cheat, and steal their way into getting whatever they want, especially when what they want is for you to waive your rights.
  When stopped by the police (in America), you say "I invoke my fifth amendment right to not answer questions and I don't consent to any searches and seizures. Am I being detained or am I free to go?" That question starts a clock for what is a reasonable amount of time to detain you for their investigation because you've made it clear that you'd like to leave as soon as you're legally allowed to.
  As for any kind of force, just stay silent and unthreatening. They're gonna do what they're gonna do, and anything you do can be used as rationalization for escalation, which they really seem to fucking love. Be polite when you do choose to speak. Obey lawful commands and let them arrest you if that's what they're gonna do. You don't fight armed thugs in the street, you fight them in court. File complaints and sue when they violate your rights and cause undue harm. Swinging at them or shouting in their face is how you get shot. Let their ego win the moment and then administratively destroy their career and life later on.
  I'm also not a lawyer, but this is what any half decent lawyer would tell you to do. Just shut the fuck up (but invoke your right to shut the fuck up or your silence can actually be used against you) and be as passive as possible so your lawyer has a slam dunk case getting your charges dropped and/or suing the everloving fuck out of them, hopefully nullifying their qualified immunity in the process. Nothing you do or say to the police can help you, but it sure as shit will be used against you. Even things you think are innocuous can corroborate that you're who they're looking for, so just shut the fuck up.
  
  Important addition: don't just shut the fuck up.
  First, in some jurisdictions, failure to identify is an arrestable offense. Full name, date of birth, relevant cards/papers.
  Second, if you need to reach for something, say something so they don't think you're about to pull a weapon on them. Officer safety is always a concern in the land of handing out guns like candy.
  Third, explicitly state that you are exercising your fifth amendment rights. Otherwise you might run into an "I want a lawyer, dawg" situation.
  
  Thank you!
- what is the best way to refuse to do this?
  try to be as white as possible.
  
  They definitely slam white people's heads into the ground for telling them no, too.
- Just the act of refusing makes the act of seizing your phone legal or not. If you legally give them your phone by your own will, they are able to use all evidence they find in the courts. If you deny to give them your phone, and they seize it anyways and access it you have a valid path to throw the evidence they discover out as an illegal search and seizure of your property. I'm not a lawyer but that is the general thought process on denying them access to your property.
  Edit: Just want to say this mostly pretains to United States law and similar legal structures. This advice is not applicable everywhere and you should research your countries rights and legal protections.
  
  Never thought about it this way. Thanks!
- "what's a phone?"
  "I don't know why my fingerprint isn't working" (biometrics are disabled)
  "I don't remember my passcode"
  "The guy at the phone place changed it for me"
  "It's never really worked right."
  "Who do you need to call anyway?"
  Just act like the dumbest creature on earth.
  
  And if you're Black - get shot for "talking back"
  
  input the wrong password like 5 times to lock up the phone then say its muscle memory and you don't remember the password numbers
  
  This is how you go to prison.
- I gotchu: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uqo5RYOp4nQ
  
  Q: Is it shut the fuck up Friday?
  A: It's always shut the fuck up Friday.
  
  Oh man that was fucking hilarious! Thanks for making my night!
  
  Mobile youtube links, gross
- It depends a lot on your location on the planet.
  
  And skin color
- Depends on local laws, but if the cops ability to seize your property without warrant isn't protected by local laws:
  Ask if they have a warrant and if they don't then take your phone oout and power it down, then put it back in your pocket and tell them they can direct complaints to your lawyer because you're not handing over any devices.
  If they seize it without a warrant then you can sue the department, although if they have reasonable suspicion then you won't have much luck.
  
  In the states, they'll just accuse the phone of committing a crime and take it anyways
- Disable biometrics
  Android: look up “lockdown mode”
  iOS: hold volume down + power, or press power 5 times fast.
  
  Better: restart the phone. This puts it into the safest state it has, as it has not yet been initially unlocked and will require a non-bio auth. Stronger security, may/should hold if they attempt to attack/hack/compromise it, if it comes to that. Takes like 3 seconds. Do it, not the equal-time-worse-security version of just disabling bio.
  
  Additionally, running GrapheneOS you can set up a duress pin to wipe the phone profiles if things were to escalate.
  Being smart, set up the main profile a bit to look real, but have no actual information. That way it's not obvious tha its been wiped.
  Being cheeky, set the duress pin to be something simple like your birthday. So if you are detained/arrested and they try to get into your phone they are the ones to wipe it for you.
- I imagine something like “I do not consent to a search nor seizure of any of my property. May I reach into my pocket so I may place my phone in plain view? If my property is going to be seized even against my will, I still want to ensure everyone’s safety.”
  Then repeat the no consent line as you place your phone on your dashboard or whatever.
  I imagine this means your lawyer will have body cam footage of the double nonconsent and the judge will see you were willing to comply even with potentially unlawful orders so the justice system could sort it out in court instead of someone trying to fight it out on the street.
- Do you have a warrant? Then sorry officer I will not hand it over per my fifth amendment right.
  From there just say you’re not saying anything else without a lawyer and then just keep demanding a lawyer.
  Yes. The cop will get pissed off. But better him mad then you spending years trying to get out of a bogus charge because of some bullshit they found on your phone. Better to be annoying and demand to speak to a lawyer.

If you absolutely have to hand over your phone, turn it off completely, like hold the power button and then tap the off icon. That will dump any keys out of RAM, which is why it always requires the full password to unlock when you turn it back on. Both in terms of how your phone works and the leaks we've seen, the cracking tools the police have are overall significantly less likely to be successful when used on a phone that's been turned off and not unlocked since.
Also, IIRC iphones have a feature where they will dump at least some of the system keys from RAM if you push the lock button five times. I'd still trust fully off more but that's easier to do covertly.
- Five times wanted to set off an emergency service call and sound the alarm 🚨 YMMV (Pixel 7)
  
  Additionally, with the Pixel 9 holding down the power button no longer turns it off, you have to press power and volume up at the same time to get to the power menu.
  
  I use KeyMapper to map "long press of the lock button while screen is locked" to the lockdown/secure lock action
- What county is this, so I know to avoid it?
  
  Sounds like it's time for the deniably encrypted phone.
- Also on Android press the power button and volume up button simultaneously, and then press lockdown.

Mark my words.
For many of us, this is a "No shit Sherlock" moment.
But in 10 years, we will have young people going "Uh what really?"
Remember when we used to say, "Don't put your name on the internet?" And now it's everywhere?
- That was like the biggest thing i learned in computer class, that i already knew in 2002 or so. Later myspace became a thing, and everyone had a myspace name. Then facebook and some people used their real name. Then facebook asked you for your phone number, and i thought: well, that's silly, who in their right mind would do that. Turns out the answer is everyone.
  
  They even give them all phone numbers from all of their contacts linked to real name (even those who don’t have whatsapp)
  What a database…
  They exactly know who knows who and how connected people are. Nearly everywhere in Europe. Don’t know about US, I think there is more iMessage?
- Yeah I remember the early days of the internet when no one used their real name and we had relationships with dozens of people who we had no idea where they lived and what their real names were.
  It seems quaint, but I kinda liked it like that.
  
  Its still like that on discord. Have no idea what one of my closest friends name is, but he really loves opossums and Minecraft!
- Remember when we used to say, "Don't put your name on the internet?" And now it's everywhere?
  Mine isn't, go ahead and look it up. You won't find my name anywhere in the internet.
  Here it is encrypted so only you can read it: >!John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt!<
  
  Hey what the heck? How did you get my Lemmy password?
  
  Woah that's my name too
  
  Hey! That's my name too!
- I don't see what the difference would be in 10 years.
  I don't think 90% of people, especially "young people" would avoid doing this already. It's already a major awareness/compliance issue, and not at all a "no shit sherlock" moment.
  But what did you have in mind that will be different in 10 years? Paricularly for young people.
- I bet I dossed my pseudonym like not even a day after creating 🤣

The more comments and news I read about the US the more Orwellian it feels.
You guys really need a massive left-shift away from the omnipresent government which regulates bodies more than companies.
- Oh sorry instead we’re going to get fascism
- At some point, someone is going to figure out George Orwell was actually a time traveler, and he tried to fix things with books. He had to deliver the message that way because if he just shouted in the streets the things that were going to happen, he'd been written off as a madman. Change a few details here and there... and then sell it as "fiction"...
- I have been to a few spots over there and it is crazy how different culturally it is. Nothing is away from politics and cops get called fot eeeeverything.
- Where do you live?
  
  European Union FTW, Germany specifically where the CCC is a massive counter measure to uneducated politics.
  
  Yes. We must know where they live so we can shit on their country to make ourselves feel better.
  'Merica!

To add to this, don't use bio-metrics to lock your devices. Cops will "accidentally" use these to unlock devices when they are forcibly seized.
- Or just know how to enable lockdown mode. On iOS that’s 5 rapid clicks of the power button, screen on or off, and it vibrates to let you know you got it without looking. Dunno what it might be for android, or if it varies by model.
  It ends up like a newly rebooted phone; requires a typed passcode. It also provides quick links to medical ID info and the sos emergency call thing. It may, if you have an ID set up, also have a link to that, but I don’t have that configured so not super sure.
  
  I personally rather trust that my device isn't able to be unlocked without my permission, rather than hope I am able to do some action to disable it in certain situations. The availability of such features is nice, but I would assume I would be incapable of performing such actions in the moment.
  My other thought is, how guilty is one perceived if they immediately attempt to lock their phones in such a matter, by a jury of their peers? I rather go the deniability route of I didn't want to share my passcode vs I locked my phone down cause the cops were grabbing me.
  
  (On Android five clicks on the lock screen makes an emergency call)
  
  But… “Apple bad!”
- If you reboot your phone, the first unlock can't use biometrics
  
  You can also set it up so biometrics can be used by apps but not to unlock the phone. That way it's easy to get to your apps and such but trivially more difficult to unlock.

DO NOT GIVE THEM YOUR PHONE
DO NOT TALK TO POLICE
Your ONLY responses should be to identify yourself, and "I will not make any statements without my lawyer present."
- Serious question, what gets you into these situations that you need to safeguard your belongings so hard? I'm asking to understand not to make a shit post thread.
  Edit: 13 hours later...not a single one of you?

- Just save a picture/scan of it in whichever secure password manager you use. It's good enough for most uses.

All this makes it sound like police are giving you a bunch of time to respond and addressing you politely.
I mean, I agree on the principle. Don't just hand your phone over to... anyone, really. But the game becomes very different when a guy with a gun is hassling you over it.
- This is why I set up tasker to lockdown my phone under certain conditions, such as: getting disconnected from Bluetooth (like when my phone is separated from me and my watch, my headphones, or the car), getting disconnected from WiFi (like when it's taken from where it's supposed to be), getting a slight jolt from the accelerometer (like getting thrown to the ground or even just a swift tap). My phone may get locked down a bunch during day to day stuff, but at least I know it will lockdown automatically when it matters.

Pro tip, if you suspect the police are going to take your phone, turn it off. As far as I am aware, finger print and face id do not work on initial startup and they can't compel you to enter your pin without a warrant.
- *counsel you. I'm picturing a police officer comforting a suspect who's sobbing with a hand on their shoulder haha.
  
  Not counsel, compel actually. But either way, definitely not console! Ha
- Better yet: don't use biometrics. My phone has face recognition for unlocking, but I better stick to a PIN/PASSWORD.
  
  Or better yet just don't use a phone at all! Can't make you unlock what you don't have!
- If you have an iPhone, holding down either volume button and the side button will bring out the Medical ID, slide to power off, Emergency SOS screen. This will also disable FaceID. Password will be required to access the phone now.
- Just hold Side button and one of the volume buttons to deactivate biometrics
- Double check this in the state or country you're in. I recall something from a few years ago where the police could force you to give a swipe pattern and maybe pin since these items are not covered in the same way that a password is.
  
  Maybe in some countries but in a western one they aren't getting a pattern or passcode unless you verbally give it to them. We do know though that there is some level of capability to crack phones though.
  
  How can you be forced to input a pattern/PIN?
  
  How is a pin not a passcode?

Reminder: If you are in a situation where you’re presenting a digital ID to a digital ID reader, do not unlock your phone first. Tap your locked phone on the ID reader, then authenticate the document share.

But aPpLe CaRe AbOuT pRiVaCy
- More than Google does

Is article mixing things or am I missing something?
You don't need to hand over your phone to present a digital ID. At least in my country the digital ID just creates a qr that the cop can scan to verify. There is no reason to hand over anything on the whole process.
- Brazil? I do miss being able to leave home bringing only my phone because my ID and cards are all there
  
  I'm also from Brazil. I chose to refuse any digital IDs: for example, my CNH (for non-brazilians: it's our driver's license) is physical and I used a dumbphone (Multilaser Zapp) to justify to the bureau that I can't have apps for digital IDs (I kinda could within my other device, a smartphone, but I lied having only Multilaser as device). They can't force people to have digital IDs, yet. Not everyone has a smartphone, it's common in Brazil for a house/family/community to have multiple people using one single smartphone, digital IDs won't be usable for this situation. It's not my situation, I avoid to take my smartphone outside of home due to security concerns, so I take a dumbphone instead.
  Digital IDs have multiple problems. What if the smartphone breaks? What if the smartphone has no battery when one needs to show one's IDs? These were the factors that motivated me to refuse any digital IDs.
- Does your phone need to be unlocked to show that qr code?
  
  Of course. But if a police officer were to remove your phone by force, first it would be illegal without a warrant so it would almost made you a favour as all evidence in your phone would be invalid in court.
  Then if they just want to remove by force, with or without warrant, they can just take it from your pocket. Even locked if they want the info in your phone they are probably getting it. They would have access to some of the best forensics teams and equipment.
  Following the same logic, should we never have an unlocked phone near a police officer? I don't know about that.
  And if you are just that paranoid I would probably be easy to just have a second profile on your phone just for the ID. And you are the same as if having the phone locked as password is needed for changing profiles.

It's not possible not to it you want to visit USA. If you don't, they'll reject your visa or deny entry. Thr only way is to use brand new cheap android before or after ( after is better ) and resell it once you go back. Most corporations do so
- So the answer is to not visit the US then.
  
  Don't you want to see our amazing 200 years as a nation and 500 years of massacre sites??!!?
  
  it's a policy that has never let me down

Deleted
- For Android:
  Open Settings
  Search for "Lockdown"
  Select "Show Lockdown option" from the results, or the result that most resembles that.
  Enter your pin if required.
  Tap the associated slider to enable Show lockdown option
   
  Now when you hold your power button, you get a "lockdown" option that disables biometrics and forces you to enter your passcode for the next unlock.
  Particularly useful for me, as I have my phone set up to always be unlocked if my watch is close enough (maybe stupid of me), but I can force lock it at any time.
  
  On some phones you won't get anything when searching for "lockdown" but you most likely have it, it's typically under Display > Lock screen > Shown lockdown option.
  
  Also relevant:
- Or you could just hit restart on the phone and at least on android it asks for the code first before enabling finger print or face ID.
  
  That's pretty much how it works on iOS too as far as I can tell. Nothing boots up until you enter your pin
- On iOS 18 there is a power button in the top right of control center (you have to hold it)

*especially if you've got nothing to hide.

Duh.

They only need to be 500 miles near you, if they pay for the good juicy 2G exploits 😉
- A lot of countries have disabled their 2G networks (and 3G in some cases). I think 4G and 5G have a more secure signaling protocol than SS7?
  
  Australia is currently in the process of phasing out 3g, which is annoying cause a 3g hotspot is the only way I can consistently get my 2ds connected to the internet
  
  Well, it does not matter if the country has no 2G. The thing is, that your phone is 2G compatible. They tell the phone something like “ehh, at this spot we have only 2G roaming” and phone is like “sure, let’s downgrade to 2G”
  Profit.

Seems like the cops should now be worried about civilian phones exploding and now might consider shooting anyone that tries to hand them a phone /s

I know this is obvious – but I also don’t want to have to purchase a printer to print out up to date proof of insurance.
My current plan is to just hand over the old/expired copy. Or I have to go through attempting to remember how to display a card from your Apple Wallet while it remains locked.
- Most of the time you can go to the library and print it out there. My insurance company (Geico) will still send cards if i request them.
- library will let you print a page for a dime
- When my insurance carrier stopped mailing cards they added a request to send the updated cards, pain in the ass but pretty sure most insurers are doing that now to cut corners because they aren't legally required to send them.

does this apply to other countries
- You have to suspect, I fear. At least, those exploiting tools are very expensive. So there is this little roadblock. On the other hand, a lot of this money goes to an Isreal based company…
  
  What if the country did not support israel and does not recognize it

No shit

I’m a cop and I can tell you that, at least in my country, you’d have no reason to not unlock your phone if you haven’t done anything.
I can understand that in some countries cops can be seen as criminals (and are behaving like criminals), but I don’t think a generality should be made. Just like a generality shouldn’t be made about people from an origin all doing the same bad thing.
Also don’t take advices from what you see on Lemmy as every user comes from a different country with different laws.
In my country, we can take your phone but we aren’t allowed to unlock it without your consent or without a prosecutor saying so.
- How exactly is an individual supposed to determine which cops will be good and which will abuse their power?
  Just as we can't make a general statement that all cops are definitely bad, you can't make a general statement that all cops in any particular country or town will be good.
  From a basic risk management viewpoint, it doesn't make sense for anyone to accept the risk that any given cop won't abuse their position, even if we were willing to accept that very few would actually do so.
  Cops have an extremely privileged status in society and the amount of damage that a bad one can do to an individual - on purpose or even by accident - is incalculable, including setting up an innocent person for capital punishment as we're seeing unfold in Missouri right now.
  
  Well said!
  
  I agree with you, you can’t know for sure that you’re with a good or bad cop.
  But you also have to comply with laws if you don’t want to get in trouble.
  I can only answer for my country and I can tell you that here you’re gonna waste way less time if you show what’s in your phone and we can see that you’re innocent.
  The time not wasted there might also be used to catch the person who’s really guilty.
  I’ll just give you an example even if it’s not reated to unlocking phones: A black BMW 335i is filmed hitting a pedestrian and the plate number finishes with a 5. We’re gonna need to have a look at every BMW within these parameters. If you prevent the police from checking your car by hiding it, a guilty guy might have more time to hide his car and a crime is gonna go unpunished, leaving a victim with no one to pay for his injuries.
  Of course, that reality might be different elsewhere. It’s just that I have noticed that on Lemmy cops are only seen as bad guys when, in my case, I spend a lot of time helping people.
- Man, fuck that.
  It's none of your business what's on our phones, period.
  You want access? Go through due process.
  The very fact that you led off with "you're fine if you have nothing to hide" makes you the problem, you personally, not anyone else around you, you.
  Doesn't matter what country you're in at all. Doesn't even matter what the law says in this case, because crappy laws exist.
  That kind of thinking is exactly why people don't trust cops.
- I can understand that in some countries cops can be seen as criminals (and are behaving like criminals), but I don’t think a generality should be made. Just like a generality shouldn’t be made about people from an origin all doing the same bad thing.
  ACAB, and you don't get to compare your chosen profession to where people were born or the colour of their skin, nor try to claim victim points by pretending you are systemically oppressed and discriminated against in the same way we are (though your trying to does go to strengthen my first point).
  Fuck you, pig.
- Would it be fair to summarize your point as "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear"?
- ACAB piggly wiggly
  
  Don't besmirch the good name of Piggly Wiggly. https://www.pigglywigglystores.com/
- Cops are garbage
  
  Says the guy insulting a stranger solely based on their profession
- I’m a cop and I can tell you that, at least in my country, you’d have no reason to not unlock your phone if you haven’t done anything.
  I can understand that in some countries cops can be seen as criminals (and are behaving like criminals), but I don’t think a generality should be made.
  It sounds like you’re saying that you would assume that someone had done something illegal if they refused to unlock their phone for you. It’s a bit ironic that you then immediately say that people shouldn’t generalize about cops behaving as criminals.
  I don’t let my friends go through my phone. Cop or not, why would I let a stranger?
  
  Because your friend would just be doing it out of curiosity, not as part of an investigation.
  I’m not saying that anyone not unlocking their phone has done something illegal, but just that some people who are refusing to give something willingly to the police is making them waste precious time which could be used to catch up with the bad guy.
  Again I can only talk about my country and maybe in the US cops are awful, I don’t know. But I know that family of victims would love people to just cooperate with the police and not make them waste time..
- I don't know why your getting downvoted and have replies with ACAB...
  Keep in mind I come at this from an American perspective.
  I do have to disagree with the first paragraph. You do not need to access to or to search my phone to perform your job. If the phone becomes part of a criminal investigation then ideally a warrant would be put out by a judge and a Computer Forensics team would take it from there.
  At least in the USA, the bad perception of cops is not just because of their apparent lack of accountability and ability to get away with murder, but also how expansive the scope of their duties are. So much authority intrusted in one person clearly seems to go to their heads more often than not here.
  I understand in many European countries the scope of a cops duties is much more restricted. I know Britian doesn't even provide their law enforcement with firearms.
- I cannot know with 100% certainty that someone hasn't planted false evidence on my phone, so I absolutely have reason turn my phone off before surrendering it (if I'm forced to surrender it).
  If cops are certain I've committed a crime, why do they need to rely on methods outside the law (edit: I mean outside of legally compelling me via a warrant or similar) to get me? No, I'm never going to consent to any sort of search without a warrant. If you think I have something to hide, why are you afraid to get a warrant?
  
  That’s the thing, often you don’t know if someone has committed a crime and looking into their phone can also prove that they’re not guilty.
  I ain’t talking about any method outside of the law. Willingly cooperating isn’t illegal. Nothing forces you to be friendly with your neighbors, but being friendly with your neighbor isn’t illegal.
- In a recent study it was found that around 2/5 of phones held by police had signs of tampering, including when they are supposed to get a warrant. If you want to know more Google, "40% police study " and it will probably show up on the first page.
- 🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽🐽
  Fuck you
- I'm going to preface this by saying the whole Americanised ACAB stuff is silly. Not everywhere has a shitty, militarised police force like theirs. Where I am, my experience with the police has been pretty positive, even with me being an immigrant with darker skin.
  But man, no.
  If police want your data, they can ask you politely, and if you say no, then that should be it. End of discussion. People have the right to privacy.
  Maybe the officer wouldn't do anything nefarious. But then again, maybe they will. You have no way of knowing what type of person that officer is. Even good police forces have plenty of shitty employees, so police powers should be limited to avoid them just doing whatever they want.
  If there's a genuine reason to have your data, say you're implicated in some criminal investigation, then they can go through the proper channels and get a warrant.
  Police absolutely should not have the power to just do whatever they like. If you let them, have that, it leads to shitty police forces like they have in the US and elsewhere.
  
  I totally agree with you and that’s what we have in my country.
  At least someone on Lemmy is not jumping on the ACAB stuff train.
  People are the first one to criticize us (sometimes with good reasons) but they are the first one to call us when they are in deep shit.
- “It’s rude to not let me invade your privacy. If you have nothing to hide just let me see your phone!” Fuck off, pig

ACAB piggly wiggly