Arizona toddler rescued after getting trapped in a Tesla with a dead battery | The Model Y’s 12-volt battery, which powers things like the doors and windows, died
Firefighters had to use an ax to smash through the window.
If only we had the technology to open doors without power. One day, perhaps.
The fact a car was approved that doesn't have a manual way to open doors from inside and outside and start it is ludicrous. That's basic-ass level shit. NHTSA is asleep at the wheel.
Other comment says there is a way from inside, just not outside (which doesn't help with a young kid/toddler/baby is the inside passenger of course).
Either way, glad this is "only" a huge embarrassment, and not a dead kid.
Or the foresight to have a small backup battery unit used exclusively for emergencies like say when the battery goes out or when someone reverses their car into a lake. The fact these are such death traps shows just how bad the US is when it comes to giving a flying fuck about people over money.
And all the while Elon is touted as some kind of super Lex Lutherian genius.
Honestly if I wrote a fictional book with some of the shit he's done and how the world looks at him publishers would throw it back in my face as being the most unbelievable POS they've read in the past 20 years.
I still dont like something that is electric powered making it so you cant get through a door. If there is a short, the battery dies (which it will someday) or generally bad parts could potentially lead to a preventable death. Cars were made so keys (or key like) can open the door no matter what. And especially in the heat everyone is going through in the US.
There is a manual door release that works without power, but only from the inside. She had just loaded the child in their car seat, shut the door then went to the driver door to get in and couldn’t open it.
The doors are on the 12V side of the system, you can use jumper cables to connect an external battery from another vehicle (including ICE vehicles) to power the door under normal circumstances. But with a kid trapped in the car in AZ, I wouldn’t wait for that either.
It a pretty rare combinations of circumstances, but there’s something to be said for manual keys still used on other vehicles with keyless entry.
Or charge/jump the 12V battery without having to remove the body panels.
Until then we've included a complimentary hammer with each Tesla.
The car’s owner, Renee Sanchez, was taking her granddaughter to the zoo, but after loading the child in the Model Y, she closed the door and wasn’t able to open it again. “My phone key wouldn’t open it,” Sanchez said in an interview with Arizona’s Family. “My car key wouldn’t open it.” She called emergency services, and firefighters were dispatched to help.
Just so nobody thinks someone left a kid in the car and then went into a store or something. Tesla should be paying for the broken window repair at the very least.
Also, this is similar to a use case that Telsa likes to promote. They allow you to leave the climate on while the car is locked.
This makes me never want to trust the dog and camp modes they advertise.
I think I just saw an article saying that dog mode is currently broken lol
Whenever essential functions (e.g. access) are powered, they're supposed to have manual overrides. I'm pretty sure this is a regulatory requirement even here in the States where we're stupid and regulatory agencies are mostly captured.
So WTF happened, Tesla? Where's the manual override for when the battery fails?
It's basic safety for industrial plants to designate powered equipment as "fail open" or "fail closed" or on/off. It's shocking that this wasn't applied to Tesla cars.
We really need an industry that performs industrial grade HAZOPs on consumer products and publishes a report for everyone to see.
Failsafe.
Fail Safe.
Fail Open.
Elon is why we need to write safety regulations. He's the kind of guy who would put sawdust in your food and call it innovation.
Agree on your overall sentiment, though I'd say it is a bit more complicated than that for car doors. You don't want it to fail and come open while moving, for example, especially if the car is coming to a stop and inertia forces the doors fully open. That Boeing door failed open and it was not very safe.
Vehicle doors should be fail functional rather than open to fail safe. As in designed to be very unlikely to fail and/or still functional even if one or several components do fail.
Edit: I normally avoid commenting on my downvotes (you win some, you lose some) but this one is baffling. What's controversial or unpopular about what I said?
Two options:
But the general idea of things still working despite failure is the essence of what the OP was saying. People seem to not like comments that refine what others say (I have plenty of experience there), they prefer comments that either correct or blatantly support the parent comment. I don't get it, but whatever.
I had something similar happen to me years ago in a Toyota minivan. The car stalled and died in traffic, some kind of electrical glitch. I got out to raise the hood. The door closed behind me and it came up with just enough battery to lock itself, with my keys in the ignition and my two babies and quadriplegic husband inside. It was 107° outside. And pre-cellphones. I bolted to the nearby gas station to call 911 and grab something to break a window. Meanwhile hubby tried to coach toddler how to wriggle out of car seat and open door, but straps were too snug. Firehouse was near, and the jammed traffic was all in one direction so they used the opposite side and didn't take long, and they jimmied the door open quickly. But it was boiling in there. Sat the kids by the road to cool off with water and get checked by paramedics, gave water to husband in car with open doors, and waited for a tow to the gas station so I could lower the ramp and get my husband out. Meanwhile of course we made the traffic even worse, but people weren't too mad when they saw our plight as they squeezed past.
I'm wondering, did some similar glitch happen here, or do Tesla doors lock every time they shut?
Might be the doors are fail shut if anything happens... But that seems like the worst design ever.
Come to think of it, it's basic design to designate features as fail closed/fail open on loss of power in an emergency, and you go with what's inherently safe. It appears Tesla did not consider basic safety design. To no one's surprise.
I'm glad that had a happy ending and sorry that happen. Autolock is so dangerous.
Most cars I've used with it won't lock until you put it in drive or start moving at a certain speed; I assume that's because of incidents like this one.
Tesla model 3 doors do not lock immediately every time they shut. But if you use your cell phone as a key, the default behavior is that they are locked if you walk away with the phone a few yards.
IDK about Tesla but yeah Toyotas like to lock themselves.
Auto-lock doors have been a nightmare in general. I always roll a window down at least far enough to stick an arm through every time I get out of a running car because of the one time forever ago that I left a 90s Pontiac Skylark running, shut the door, and it autolocked with the keys in the ignition and the motor running. I had to get my girlfriend to drive me back to my apartment for the spare key while the car was humming away, and I never forgot that. If I wasn't close to home, with a helpful ride nearby, and a spare key on hand, I'd have been screwed.
Talk about features that need regulated out. All because suburban whites don't want to remember to lock the doors as they drive through the black neighborhood so the car locks itself whenever you put it in Drive.
Specifically, it's that the doors opening mechanisms are powered, and the power was not being applied to open them. There is no exterior mechanical entry option.
Ah, that is stupid.
There was a time I wanted a Tesla, but I don't anymore. This is just another reason why.
Does Tesla care about making a "neat thing" or do they care about making "a car that can drive me places". The doors clearly show they prioritize making a "neat thing", but I want a reliable car.
Opening and closing doors was a solved problem. Somehow Tesla made it worse.
Does Tesla care about making a "neat thing" or do they care about making "a car that can drive me places"
Neither. Care about making money.
Tesla isn't a car... It's an EXPERIENCE!!!
(/s just in case it isn't obvious enough)
In summary, Tesla the company cares about not going bankrupt. Edge they have been walking on since inception. Musk on the other hand cares about money and being on TV non-stop because he's a narcissist asshole. Problem is, those two have colliding interest because Musk is majority holder now and Tesla has to make what he says in his drug induced and poorly educated rambles. He wasn't a majority holder for a while thanks to 42.0B$ fuck yea deal with then soon to be announced X but at the time Twitter. Now stock holders voted to give him 40B$ bonus to keep him in "leading role".
So in short it's a shitstorm. Stupid car that had a great idea but was ruined by narcissistic manchild. Car which you can only repair in authorized service centers by the way which is something no one talks about. Car that eats away your tires and some people report having to replace tires every six months. And on top of that, you have no spare tire to begin with. That means you run over a nail, tow truck for you it is.
Oh and I haven't said anything about share holders because they are plain old idiots. Tesla is not paying dividends and never planned to do so. So people buy stocks to have them? I don't know some sort of mystery. And even then, they buy stocks, then Musk hypes them up a bit, sells quintillion shares and bails out, which is why he's not allowed to talk about Tesla without babysitter. So share holders buy stocks, lose money and cheer for Musk.
Same, but cars in general now. I used to look forward to driving, but now I'm sick of it. Biking and ebikes have made going places fun again :)
Not even the door locks are mechanical? So much built-in obsolescence...
Idiocracy was a prophetic movie, with everything working, eh, like this and planes falling.
I haven't has a car with mechanical locks in a long time. I've also not had a battery so dead the locks didn't work.
I have a Toyota where the electronic part of one door has completely failed. It still opens. You shouldn't have to break out of your own car.
Yet.
My wife's EV has a tiny key that comes out of the dongle, and has a tiny hidden keyhole under the handle.
I had to Google to find it, but it's sufficient if power is out. It's a mechanical lock mechanism like cars have had for a century. As it should be.
It is, people are just stupid, can't be bothered to read, or even wonder what that lever literally right on the door handle is for.
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
The fucking DOORS require a charged battery? Fuck that. That decision will age great in the next ten years. Not to mention emergency situations where the electrical system is compromised.
It's worse than that: it requires the old school lead acid 12v battery to be charged, so even if the car's battery is full, it doesn't matter if that old car battery has failed
That's not unique to Tesla EVs, but it being required to open the doors may be (the 12v lead acid runs the general vehicle electronics rather than down converting the 400v or 800v main battery... I don't understand that decision, but I'm no electronics expert so there may be really good reasons for it...)
Let me start by stating that requiring the battery to open/close doors is a bad design choice overall. There should always be a way to open the door using a physical key.
Ok, having said that, the 12V is a better choice. It's easier to replace a 12V battery in case it fails and forcing the main battery to power everything runs the risk of draining that. Li-Ion batteries don't react well to being completely drained.
Besides, all EVs have a way to attach an external battery to the 12V system in case of total power failure, which will then allow you to do whatever you need. In case of Tesla Model Y there are two cables hidden in the tow eye cover that power the hood release. With the hood open you can charge the 12V battery directly.
I can understand why. I'm guessing it's for a couple reasons, maybe fluctuations in the voltage depending on driving conditions ( if you're stomping on the throttle allowing everything to flow through the motors it may provide inconsistent voltage to the sensitive computers and electronics, I would imagine there is a step-down converter somewhere that charges that 12v battery, essentially that battery is used as a buffer. But the link between the big batt. and little batt. isn't active unless the vehicle is on. And "On" requires the 12v system to turn on computers and close a relay.
Doors relying on ANY electronics is a bad idea. Even most cars with keyless entry have a hidden key somewhere to physically get in the vehicle if the battery dies. If the main battery in a tesla is toast you have bigger problems than a locked door. But anyone who has been driving for more than a few years has likely dealt with an OG battery decides to stop taking a charge. And you probably won't get much of a warning in an EV that doesn't have an engine that starts turning over slower and slower.
I know that hybrids like the Prius (at least the older ones) use the inverter to charge the 12v battery with the EV battery to make the ICE beltless (no AC compressor, alternator, etc driven by the ICE) which is supposed to increase fuel efficiency.
There's a release latch on the doors beside the "open door" buttons. I guess no I've else is pointing that out?
there's a mechanical override inside the car, but from outside doors can only be opened via nfc or remotely irrc (not a real safety issue tho as the doors can still be opened by breaking the windows like in basically all other cars)
https://insideevs.com/news/460707/testing-tesla-laminated-glass-vs-regular-glass/
They have laminated glass on the doors. Yes, it can break, but it takes saws to actually open. Having to get through a window to open a door because a battery died is very much a safety issue. Especially with how prone they are to having their batteries catch on fire. Relying in the electrical system or a super secret back up plan on the interior of the car in an emergency is stupid.
Clearly it's a safety issue. You should not have to break it to use it.
Now imagine this happens in a remote area with no cell coverage. In Arizona those are a thing too.
I assume Arizona has rocks and bricks and stuff lying around somewhere
Easy enough to get out, if you have a couple braincells to rub together. The manual release is not hidden, covered, obfuscated, or even in a weird location. It's literally right on the door handle
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
Now imagine you are under the ocean talking to Aquaman.
Aquaman's on a horse.
In the middle of nowhere, maybe. But I've been on several road trips across the state and had service the entire way, mostly LTE with a few spots of 3G here and there. As long as you're near the highway or a town, you'll get service.
There are giant swaths of area with no coverage, especially in the mountains of arizona, including the freeways and especially highways. The entire western US can be spotty with signal out in the great wide open. It isn't until the Midwest and more east that one should largely not worry about signal coverage anymore.
Why not just open the door with the key like every car ever
It's so obvious, then again I think there's some cars out there without even a metal key for the engine. So dumb.
what happens when a car catches fire because the electrical system is on fire and you can't Open the door because it's electric
There are manual releases on each door inside, but I'm surprised they don't have them outside as well.
Reading more about it, I find that many only have manual releases on the front doors until recently and they have a connection point you're meant to jump with power to unlock and open from the outside. I didn't think anyone would be okay waiting for a jump to get their baby out, but then these people waited for firemen to break their window, so...
Manual release or you die, just like that lady that drove hers into her pond.
There should really be a law, requiring a certain list of mechanical things to exist on the car. So far, it's only the emergency turn signals, and what, the mirrors? The door handles absolutely need to be on that list
At least one door should open via a mechanical key and mechanical handle from the outside, and I firmly believe the internal door handles should all function mechanically as well. There shouldn't be "usually you use a button but in an emergency this thing that looks like a bit of trim is the actual mechanical handle" that shouldn't be allowable by code.
I agree, the main handle you use on the interior and exterior of the vehicle should be PHYSICALLY connected to the latch. Seems like a pretty simple rule to make and enforce and seems pretty common sense.
I have a 61 f100 with shaved doors that only opens electronically from the outside with a fob, but I didn't build it to be a grocery getter with my wife and kids in it. I know the risks. And the hood opens without having to get into the cab so I can easily access the battery if it's dead.
A lot of people are giving Tesla shit here, but surely there should be regulations in place to ensure something like this isn't allowed to be released for public use?
Sure you'd think you wouldn't need regulations that state that there should be a manual way to open your car door. Have we gotten that stupid? Why in god's name would you not have that option? What happens if the battery dies and you can't start the car? You can't open the door to pop the hood to even jump it. With all the brilliant people that work at a company like Tesla and no one thought there should be a way to open the door from the outside if there's no power?
Have we gotten that stupid?
Something something "these regulations are written in blood" anecdote something something.
You'd think so, but who do you think pays huge sums of money every year to be allowed to sell death traps to the public?
You'd think.
Every eventuality can't be covered by regulation. Sometimes you realise something can go disastrously wrong after someone is hurt. I wouldn't be surprised if this never happened to other mechanical cars to never need regulation. Sometimes you need to wait for a stupid product to exist for someone to make a rule saying "stupid products shouldn't exist".
Fun fact, a Tesla spokesperson describing the car's features was talking about how they wanted something on the car that didn't make it to final release and said "But sadly we couldn't get that law changed", which does... kind of imply that they lobbied the regulatory bodies into allowing this piece of shit to exist.
Yeah, Tesla is certainly not the first ones to have this design or issues with it:
My 1998 Honda Civic SE hatchback was all manual. Manual windows with the canks, manual door locks, manual steering (no power steering), no braking assist, no assist of ANY kind in fact, and a manual transmission. It was basically an engine, four wheels and a steering wheel.
If EV manufacturers could make cars that are closer to my old Civic, with the only difference being the engine being swapped for an electric motor, I would switch in a heartbeat. For now I'll stick with my 2010 Mazda 3, which I barely use except for the occasional trip to my family or friends who are out of the city or to do my groceries once a week. Until cars start using manual controls for essentials like door handles and locks, audio systems and temperature control, I want none of it.
I'm already having trouble with touch screen tablets when I'm not driving, let alone when I need to focus on the damn road.
i think kia ev6 is as manual as electric cars get. you can adjust the climate control with knobs, and move the seat manually!
I'm with you but I'm still hesitant because I like my manual transmission
Toyota is working on that, lol: https://insideevs.com/features/693877/toyota-ev-manual-transmission-tested/
it's really smart to have non-mechanical mechanical parts for things like a door
You mean, non-electrical.. not non-mechanical.
With sarcasm, one might say that it is desirable to have obviously undesirable thing. Your interpretation is one way, but I think they really meant "stupid" instead of "smart".
What is a non-mechanical mechanical part?
It's the opposite of a mechanical non-mechanical part geeze....
I was talking to a Tesla owner about this and they argued that if the window is electric then there’s no difference making the door electric. They couldn’t understand that the door itself can be operated independently of the rest of the vehicle.
Making windows electric causes a safety tradeoff. You get ease of operation while losing the ability to open the window in the event of an accident (where power cannot be supplied). However you can still unlock and open the door manually as an alternative escape option. This also applies in non-accident scenarios (dead battery).
Making doors electric is nothing more than a safety risk. From the inside you might have access to a manual release latch, but some doors require you to unscrew things first. Any emergency situation where you need to exit as soon as possible and the power is lost almost guarantees that you’ll be unable to safely escape.
Nothing about it is hidden, obfuscated, or even in a weird spot. It's literally right on the fucking door handle. There's a lot of reasons to hate elon, and there's a lot of reasons to hate tesla. Let's stick to the legitimate ones instead of making shit up, it just weakens the arguments for the actual issues
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
I'd love to see a crank on EVs to power the low voltage stuff in emergencies. How many amps does the car startup take? 15A? Maybe bicycle pedals.
Yabba dabba dooooo
So we would have come full circle. That actually has a retro appeal to it that it could catch on!
Wish Version Iron Man:
"Really? Do you think its 2010 again?
This is the fuuuuuuttttuuurrreeee!!!"
snorts Ketamine and twirls out the door
Really interesting design decision. Was the main battery also dead? I'm guessing not. There's a step-down converter under the rear seat that outputs 12-16 volts, Tesla could probably have fairly easily set the car up to power the doors from that when the auxiliary 12V battery dies.
Probably would still need the 12V battery to have enough charge to close the connection to the high voltage battery that would power the step down converter.
But yeah it seems dumb to me that most EVs don't keep the 12V battery topped up from the high voltage battery somehow while the car is parked, but I'm not an electrical engineer ¯(ツ)_/¯
There really shouldn't need to be a 12V battery at all. Stepping the voltage down isn't that complicated, but the supply chain for the necessary parts aren't there for the car industry.
Plus, it'd be really nice if everything could run off a 48V line instead of 12V. The wires can be thinner due to less current draw. Getting that to work across all the electronics for everything is a whole separate level, though.
This is why I bought an EV with mechanical doors.
Glad the toddler could be saved.
These cars all have manual backups.
The question is how easy is it to use?
Lets ask the dead billionaire
She died of stupid, the release is literally right on the door. It's not hidden, obfuscated, covered, or in any way shape or form difficult to use. Just another idiot that didn't bother learning what all the controls on their new card did.
That being said, even with a manual release they most likely would have died anyway. As once your car is in the water unless you're able to open the door basically instantaneously upon hitting the water you're going to find that the door is impossible to open as the weight of the water will prevent it until such time as the car has filled with water to equalize the pressure. Generally speaking people that survive cars falling into water were able to get the window open, or just break it entirely. The door is almost never the Escape Route as it will not allow itself to be opened due to the difference in pressure
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
Only takes about a half second Google search to find out, it's literally a handle right on the door. Just above the window switches. It's not hidden, obfuscated, covered, or even in a weird spot
Edit: turns out this is only in the M3, the Y, X, And CT are all designed by absolute idiots, and i joined them by not looking into all models
Yeah, My volt battery is in the floor of the trunk. If the battery on the volt dies you can't open the trunk easily. Physical locks in the doors are no problem but they didn't put a keyhole on the damn trunk.
You can pop the hood and access the jump terminals and then pop the trunk. You can also crawl into the back hatch from inside pull a panel off and pop the trunk.
Did the batter die from extreme heat or due to the driver failing to charge the vehicle promptly?
Wrong battery. You're thinking the high-voltage EV battery, but in this case, it was the 12V lead-acid accessory battery that died. Normally, that would be charged from the high voltage battery, if the car was running.
In this case, it might just have been bad luck with a worn-out battery.
Damn... thanks for the explanation!
Does the indoor lever (hidden) not work without the battery too?
Yes, the interior manual release works without power, but the only person in the car was a toddler in a car seat and they were not able to open it themselves.
Ah yes... The typical downvotes for asking a question. Brilliant people we have here on lemmy, real stand up fellows.
