iPhone owners say the latest iOS update is resurfacing deleted nudes
iPhone owners say the latest iOS update is resurfacing deleted nudes
cross-posted from: https://sopuli.xyz/post/12670977
iPhone owners say the latest iOS update is resurfacing deleted nudes
Nothing sinister, we just don't delete what we say we delete. Instead we keep it in your profile to feed the algorithms and set the "deleted" flag to make you think it's gone.
I mean, to be completely fair, that's how data storage works.
We cannot really just make data disappear, so we let it get overwritten instead
But clearly the data is not overwritten and this was intentional. How do I know? Because that would amount to a massive amount of data, if it was de to a bug in Apple software or underlying filesystems, it would be detected in monitoring systems "Hey, we're using 10x the data we should be, maybe we should look into it".
The mistake was in the flag code that was supposed to fool us.
the shred command in Linux tries to do this, but it may not work if the hardware moves rewritten data blocks around to mitigate wear.
Proper deletion should include writing all ones or all zeroes to the block but y'all be lazy as fuck.
That's skipping over the fact that recovering deleted data, even if it isn't overwritten, is not an "oops". It it takes extra effort, and if that data isn't being protected it would be overwritten incidentally as drives are used.
There is a big difference in a database between "flagging" data and actually removing the association of the data to the database.
The data just needs to be overwritten to be truly deleted.
That's how a lot of people handle deleted data in database, it's literally just a flag. That's why there's a recommendation to edit Reddit posts before deleting them, to ensure they're actually overwritten so they can't just be restored.
They don't care about your security or privacy, they care about being the exclusive vendor of your personal information.
If you never had any nudes in the first place, and update, is there a chance to get some?
Asking for a friend.
You should check out the federated backup of Apple Cloud. You can reach it at lemmynsfw.com. I mean your friend.
Every time I go looking, there's a barren desert of male/gay content. In some lateral communities, furry porn is beating the content ratio like 10:1.
Y'all need to hold your phones or something while you browse the 5 billion straight communities, give me something that's not weeks+ old. Uncut guys to the front of the queue, thanks. 📸
The only problem with that server is there are tons of shit you'd rather not see. It's sadly not as easy to filter like the reddit porn subs are.
Check your DMs 😏
Just the nudes. Nothing else.
Not true, it specifically states in the article that, for example, one user had over 300 photos reappear, "some of which were revealing". This is obviously not great but it isn't likely as scandalous as it's being made out to be.
Cool
Next up, it starts showing other peoples nudes
There's a post on reddit about some dude who gave his phone to a friend (wiped it, new iCloud, everything), and the undeleted photos are from when OP owned the phone.
With a factory reset the phones encryption keys will be destroyed and nothing should be retrievable from that device. Even if the data isn't overwritten, without the encryption key no one could read it.
At least that's my understanding of the modern safety- and encryption features of recent phone models/mobile OS's.
The worst part: Apple's iCloud is end-to-end encrypted and even Apple can't see the users files, at least that is what they say.
If what the dude on Reddit states is true, then this is bad, really really bad! 😮
Link pls?
"I know it's not your nude, but it's a nude and that's what you were looking for, right?"
Of course it's company policy to never imply ownership in the event of a nude. It's always the indefinite article "a" nude. Never "your" nude.
That's a feature, not a bug
I mean that's what is happening if the phone used to belong to someone else
Computer data is never actually “deleted” until it’s overwritten with new 1s and 0s — operating systems simply cut off references to it.
That's not entirely correct, and I would expect a tech news site to know but ig not.
It's true with spinny's since they store data magnetically on the platter with 1s and 0s, but SSDs store data on the NAND as a held charge. If there's a charge in the block it's a 1 if there's no charge it's a 0.
With spinny's, when a file gets marked as "deleted" the residual magnetic 1s and 0s will remain on the platter until eventually overwritten like they say
But with SSDs, when a file gets marked "deleted" then within no more than a few minutes TRIM comes along and ensures the charge on the NAND is released (Which means that data is gone, permanently) for that data, there's no residuals to worry about like with spinny's and is in fact necessary to ensure decent lifespans.
This is dependent on the TRIM schedule. It could be size based (execute a TRIM when 50% of the blocks are used).
It could be or maybe the SSD has its own on-firmware TRIM schedule, but all major OS's execute a TRIM on a time based schedule no longer than every 10-15 minutes.
Perhaps, but this is unrelated. The magnetic charges may still be there, but if the reference to the content is deleted, how is the filesystem meant to know what file is there? This seems really suspicious to me.
There's most certainly residuals, I've accidentally deleted then installed Windows on top of a bunch of my game saves. I found some random file recovery application and let it run for awhile. Guess what? Nearly everything was readable despite the fact it got wiped and then had a whole windows install.
NAND also experiences minor permanent damage on writes. Actually clearing the NAND involves a write as the charge has to be forced out (a write of 0s)
This can happen when TRIM is disabled
Here's a study published last year I read that goes through this exact thing
In consideration of results obtained from the experiments, it concluded that the behavior of Wear Leveling in different SSD manufacturers having the same storage capacities does not match. It varies based on the number of files, types of files, and sizes. The recovery of files from different SSD manufacturers showed different results. In all SSDs, not a single trace of any file found in disk format scenario(s). Whereas, some of the data recovered in the delete case and from only one drive. It clearly showed different behavior of data recoveries in format and delete cases. The obvious finding from this study is that the time interval of image acquisitions played a significant role, and the longer time interval supports few chances of data recovery because the TRIM and Garbage Collection process effects clearing residual data from the drives
Edit: corrected links
Which means that data is gone, permanently) for that data, there's no residuals to worry about like with spinny's and is in fact necessary to ensure decent lifespans.
I doubt that the firmware is doing an overwrite of TRIMmed data. Rather, I expect it's marking it as having been TRIMmed, and so can report that it's zeroed to higher layers. If a higher layer queries the firmware for its content, sure, they might get zeroes returned. But if you can modify the firmware or otherwise bypass it, you may be able to get at the underlying media.
There is also the "bad block" issue, where storage media can take blocks -- which may contain readable data -- out of use, so that higher layers cannot access them. That applies to rotational drives and it looks like SSDs do the same thing. Again, might require bypassing or modifying the firmware to get direct access. But there can be data leaked there.
I also wouldn't be terribly surprised if there is lingering information even after zeros are written to an SSD that might be recoverable if you could directly access the media, though I'm not familiar with the situation there. That is the case for rotational drives -- the drive platter itself is "analog", doesn't just store a discrete string of ones and zeroes at the physical level. I once knew a cryptographer who was working on quantifying that leakage for rotational drives.
Now, attacking some of that is a pain and probably not a concern, but there are some cases where it might be a target. I once knew a professor who used to work at the Department of Defense, and he'd talk about their disposal process for rotational drives:
I don't know what they did if Step 1 couldn't be completed due to drive failure. Maybe they were allowed to skip that step in that case.
That being said, probably most people don't have to worry about the same level of resources being aimed at them.
EDIT: Step 1 might have been a degauss rather than an overwrite. Either way, it was definitely just aiming to twiddle bits, not physically destroy the drive. I'm trying to remember a conversation from a couple decades back...
I doubt that the firmware is doing an overwrite of TRIMmed data. Rather, I expect it's marking it as having been TRIMmed, and so can report that it's zeroed to higher layers. If a higher layer queries the firmware for its content, sure, they might get zeroes returned. But if you can modify the firmware or otherwise bypass it, you may be able to get at the underlying media.
TRIM is garbage collection and is a part of the wear leveling system. The whole point of TRIM is to have the SSD only hold the charge it needs too for still in use (i.e. not deleted) data. It's the charge that damages blocks over time, so to extend lifespans it clears everything not needed. It's not overwriting data for security or anything per se, but rather just a result of its longevity processes
Now, I'm sure there are cheap no name SSD controllers out there with ineffective TRIM operations that just lie about the operation, but any controller worth its salt is gonna have proper TRIM.
There is also the "bad block" issue, where storage media can take blocks -- which may contain readable data -- out of use, so that higher layers cannot access them. That applies to rotational drives and it looks like SSDs do the same thing. Again, might require bypassing or modifying the firmware to get direct access. But there can be data leaked there.
Part of that process is to move the data to another block and release the charge to prevent further damage, it's possible the block is damaged in such a way that it won't even release the charge, but if that's the case it's incredibly unlikely to be readable.
I also wouldn't be terribly surprised if there is lingering information even after zeros are written to an SSD that might be recoverable if you could directly access the media, though I'm not familiar with the situation there. That is the case for rotational drives -- the drive platter itself is "analog", doesn't just store a discrete string of ones and zeroes at the physical level. I once knew a cryptographer who was working on quantifying that leakage for rotational drives.
Yea it's possible, but now you're in the needing x-ray machines, powerful microscopes, full clean room labs and people with extensive, specific skill sets which means $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ or in other words, state level budgets range. 99.99999% of people will be fine
Good thing I already knew Iphone wasn't private.
I mean, they make you sign in with an Icloud ID
Never accepted the agreement, it constantly asks me to but works without it
Having said that, I am sure it still steals my photos because it’s close sourced
damn, user ilikeboobies, is security conscious? What a time to be alive.
Surprise backup
Oh, it's up!
Is it just nudes or is it all old photos?
The former would be hilarious, it would mean that iOS explicitly classified those images as nudes.
The article is being disingenuous about data not being deleted unless it's overwritten with 1's and 0's. Technically that's true, but:
Most data being deleted is equivalent to a piece of paper being placed in a trashcan, and it's "permanently" deleted when that trash gets hauled away to a landfill (or supposedly recycling but that's another topic). Technically it's still forensically accessible, but it isn't accessible by any normal means. That piece of paper may not have been incinerated, but for the majority of practical purposes, it's gone.
Apple never hauled the trash away, even though they claimed they did. There should be no way for them to accidentally restore those photos, just like there's no way for you to accidentally get a piece of paper back in your trash bin after it's been sent to a landfill.
Focusing on the 1s and 0s skips past the fact they failed to complete the first, obvious, essential step. If they didn't delete it the simple way, they would never have gotten to the 1s and 0s step. This isn't just a simple oversight, and those pictures were still very easily accessible, just not to the people who should have been in control of them.
In your analogy, they never even put the photos in the trash can. They just put a postit on them saying "don't show to user". Then the updated software forgot about the postits (and started to post tits).
I dont trust that client side scanning or other system components arent going through these half deleted files
can't wait for my personally hosted, and managed hardware server to start serving me shit i never put up in the first place.
Oh wait that won't happen, because i host it, and it's mine, and i own it.
Well, someone obviously didn't read past the headline: its undeleting images locally that haven't been overwritten
yeah and i can't have that issue because i use a real filesystem that isn't schizophrenic, because if it was you would get dataloss
Thank fuck for nerds writing open source software. Otherwise my life would be hell.
merges WordPress into the apt repository for grep
watches the world burn
:)
I’m an android user and I shred my files using a app that uses an algorithm that overwritten that bytes of the file
I suspect that it doesn't actually work. I mean, they can overwrite the logical positions in the file file if they want, but that doesn't entail that it actually overwrites the underlying physical blocks, for a number of reasons, starting with some of the stuff at the drive level, but also because of higher-level issues. What filesystem does Android use?
googles
Looks like yaffs2, at least on this system.
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2421826/what-is-androids-file-system
rootfs / rootfs ro 0 0
tmpfs /dev tmpfs rw,mode=755 0 0
devpts /dev/pts devpts rw,mode=600 0 0
proc /proc proc rw 0 0
sysfs /sys sysfs rw 0 0
tmpfs /sqlite_stmt_journals tmpfs rw,size=4096k 0 0
none /dev/cpuctl cgroup rw,cpu 0 0
/dev/block/mtdblock0 /system yaffs2 ro 0 0
/dev/block/mtdblock1 /data yaffs2 rw,nosuid,nodev 0 0
/dev/block/mtdblock2 /cache yaffs2 rw,nosuid,nodev 0 0
/dev/block//vold/179:0 /sdcard vfat rw,dirsync,nosuid,nodev,noexec,uid=1000,gid=1015,fmask=0702,dmask=0702,allow_utime=0020,codepage=cp437,iocharset=iso8859-1,shortname=mixed,utf8,errors=remount-ro 0 0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YAFFS
YAFFS is a robust log-structured file system that holds data integrity as a high priority. A secondary YAFFS goal is high performance. YAFFS will typically outperform most alternatives.[3] It is also designed to be portable and has been used on Linux, WinCE, pSOS, RTEMS, eCos, ThreadX, and various special-purpose OSes. A variant 'YAFFS/Direct' is used in situations where there is no OS, embedded OSes or bootloaders: it has the same core filesystem but simpler interfacing to both the higher and lower level code and the NAND flash hardware.
Yeah, note the "log-structured" bit there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log-structured_file_system
A log-structured filesystem is a file system in which data and metadata are written sequentially to a circular buffer, called a log.
So, what happens is that when you write, it's going to the log, and then there's a metadata update once the write is complete saying "I wrote to the log". The app probably isn't writing to the previous location of the data on the disk, because writing to byte offset 32,000 the second time in a file will go to a different logical location on the storage device than the first time you wrote it, causing the thing to not actually be overwritten.
googles
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1106.0917
Secure Deletion on Log-structured File Systems
We address the problem of secure data deletion on log-structured file systems. We focus on the YAFFS file system, widely used on Android smartphones. We show that these systems provide no temporal guarantees on data deletion and that deleted data still persists for nearly 44 hours with average phone use and indefinitely if the phone is not used after the deletion. Furthermore, we show that file overwriting and encryption, methods commonly used for secure deletion on block-structured file systems, do not ensure data deletion in log-structured file systems.
I'd also note that this is a lead-up to proposed solutions, but that's only handling things down to the level that the OS sees, not what the flash device sees; they don't mention things like wear leveling, so they probably aren't taking that into consideration.
EDIT: Oh, they do mention it, but just to say that some of their approach might work (like, what they mean is that if it writes enough data in the background, it might eventually overwrite whatever, even if the OS has no control as to what's being written):
Wei et al. [16] have considered secure deletion on flash storage in the context of solid state drives (SDDs). An SSD makes use of a Flash Translation Layer (FTL). This layer allows a regular block-based file system (such as FAT) to be used on flash memory by handling the nuances of erase blocks opaquely through the FTL’s layer of indirection. This layer has the same effect as a log-structured file system, where the FTL writes new entries at empty locations, so old entries remain until the entire erase block can be reclaimed. They executed traditional block-based approaches to secure deletion and determined that they do not properly sanitize data on flash storage. They also showed alarmingly that some built-in sanitization methods do not function correctly either. They propose to address this concern by having flash hardware manufacturers make use of zero overwriting, and add it into the FTL hardware. They state that circumventing the problem of a lack of secure deletion requires changes in the FTL, but depending on how the FTL is implemented, our userlevel approaches may also succeed similarly without requiring hardware changes.
Hm... I curiously checked my phone, deleted images/videos are still deleted and haven't resurfaced. Then again I don't mix technology with nudity. /shrug
There are tons of reasons to take nude photos... you often have to send in nude photos for the beginning stages of surgery consultations.
And sexting is fun.
This comment comes across insanely judgemental of the individual, when the issue is that Apple deleting data and thus violating privacy.
It's not just nudes, though. This could happen for any deleted picture. I'm not really expecting them to zero out the file system block or anything, but this implies they're not even doing file system level deletion.
Yeah.. I think I'd rather do that in person than to video record or take images of myself nude. Privacy and security is a pretty big deal to me. Hence, I don't mix technology with nudity.
I love mixing technology with nudity. But I have also avoided this problem because I don't mix technology and Apple.
So you use a de-googled android?
You don’t mix technology and YOUR nudity 😉
haha..
I think mixing tech and nudity is awesome! I love getting dickpics!
Did you think some else's nudes might have resurfaced there...?
No they're just feeling morally superior for no good reason.
As a rule, files never get deleted... They get over written. So it depends on whether that process has happened to any loose images.
Are they not happy when they got back what they thought was lost? :-)
Dang must suck being on a proprietary locked down platform you have no control over. That's literally impossible on my deGoogled android running GOS.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Apple appears to have a bug that’s dredging up data that iPhone owners thought was gone.
Some iPhone owners are reporting that, after updating their phones to iOS 17.5, their deleted photos — some quite old — are popping up again, according to a Reddit thread that MacRumors spotted.
People reporting the apparent bug say that they’re seeing old photos appear in their Recents album after Monday’s update.
iOS does give users the option to restore deleted photos, but after 30 days, they’re supposed to be permanently removed.
The person who started the thread claimed that NSFW photos they had deleted “years ago” were back on their phone.
Computer data is never actually “deleted” until it’s overwritten with new 1s and 0s — operating systems simply cut off references to it.
The original article contains 288 words, the summary contains 131 words. Saved 55%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
No way! Prove it
I still don't get why people take pictures of themselves being nude and complained when it got leak because data breach
"I don't understand why people have sex and then complain when they can't get an abortion because of Roe v Wade being appealed."
This is what you sound like. Blame the system, not the individual for having a better sex life than you.
I appreciate this thread's nuanced discussion of how file deletion works from a technical standpoint depending on storage medium. But as a user, when I delete something, it should go away forever. I don't care how.
grabs your phone, throws it on the ground and blasts it with a shotgun
There you go! =)
Cloud's deleted folder enters the chat.
Well… if you really want to delete them…
takes blasted phone, insert remnants into small iron cup, places in inductive furnace
Hey at least I know it gets the job done
Easy peasy
Years of working tech support in my past tells me that this is a lie. "OMG restore this!"
I think tech would be a better place if it did actually go away when you deleted things. If something's not explicitly backed up people really should have no hope of bringing it back.
If every time an OS had to delete something it had to fill the space with zeros or garbage data multiple times just to make extra sure it's gone, we'd all be trashing our flash chips very fast, and performance would be heavily degraded. There really isn't a way around this.
The solution to keep private files private is to put them into an encrypted container of some sort where you control the keys.
Step away from hardware constraints for a moment, and consider the OS:
If the OS says a file is deleted, under no circumstances should the OS be able to recover it. Sure, certain tools may exist to pull it back; but it should be unavailable to the OS after that. And yet, apparently a software update was enough to recover these files. Thus, the concerns about data safety in an environment where the OS cannot be trusted to remove data when it says it has been removed.
Well, the storage device should handle that then. And modern NVMEs do. Self-encrypted drives are used to hide deleted information from an attacker that desolders the storage chips.
Edit: there are NVMEs that dont use self encryption, BUT they should still recognize a deleted sector.
The OS should never let that happen. It always should abstract the partition into a filesystem.
It's to prevent you from accidentally deleting a photo you would never want to delete. If you want to make sure it's deleted, you just go into the Photos app and delete it from the Recently Deleted folder. I prefer this approach, as I have accidentally deleted a photo that I did not mean to, and luckily it was still there. Use cases are different though, so.
That still doesn't fully erase the data though. It just tells the computer that that space on the drive is available to be overwritten, but the 1s and 0s are still recoverable
Imo there should be options for standard deletion and total deletion. Standard is faster, puts less wear on the drive, and keeps the files potentially recoverable, whole total would make it totally unrecoverable at the expense of taking slightly longer and putting a bit more wear on the drive
That is what thermite is for.
The second drive bay is the right size for a handy block of data erasing c4
No one will ever read my Zuck / Bezos fanfic.