3d ago

Louisiana to use nitrogen execution method it bans for cats and dogs

www.theguardian.com Louisiana to use nitrogen execution method it bans for cats and dogs

State plans to carry out first judicial killing in 15 years on Tuesday using technique critics call inhumane

Summary

Louisiana is set to execute Jessie Hoffman by nitrogen gas on Tuesday, becoming the second state to use this method despite banning it for euthanizing cats and dogs under state law.

Lawyers argue the method constitutes cruel punishment, citing four recent Alabama executions where prisoners showed distress signs including violent shaking and convulsions.

Louisiana veterinarian Lee Capone, who helped ban animal gassing in the state, called Hoffman's planned execution "horrific."

A federal judge's temporary stay was overturned Friday by the fifth circuit court. Three major nitrogen manufacturers have blocked their products from being used in executions.

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One strong argument for banning the death penalty is that sadistic officials always find ways to transform it into torture.

I'm completely horrified people here are discussing whether N2O is working properly or not, if it's humane or not, what could work better, while we are talking about murdering people. The US is trying horrible ways to kill people because they aren't allowed to buy seditives from the medical industry as it is only allowed to be sold to medical institutes, you know, for helping people.
The US incarceration system is full of crimes against humanity, is corrupt, racist, still has slavery and is still murdering people. I know others who experimented with more effective ways to kill people, during the 1940's. I wonder when the US tries more efficient ways, like for instance dumping a can of Zyclon B in a full room. Bunch of fucking nazis.
- Rest of the world is still hanging till death
  
  I would much prefer the long drop if the alternative was suffocation by nitrogen.
  The stupid thing here is I think costcutting. Change the nitrogen into nitrogen oxide and you should have problems with people getting anxious.
  But yeah death penalties are bullshit and I'm against them
  
  Most countries don't have death penalties anymore. So no, not rest of the world.

There's two things going on here.
As a pilot, I'm familiar with hypoxia and how it works. I or pretty much any other pilot could very quickly write a completely bulletproof execution protocol that would guarantee a 100% painless death every time. It would involve a non-rebreathing 100% nitrogen mask so every lungful taken is 100% fresh nitrogen. In this mode, you just get drowsy and euphoric and pass out with no physical pain.
If they ask me to write it, I don't care if they offer a million dollars I wouldn't do it. I think the death penalty is barbaric and the way we have applied it is even worse, given how there are numerous instances of people executed despite evidence they were innocent being blocked by court procedure and prosecutors. I'm not saying there aren't people the world is better off without, there absolutely are. But if we are going to kill people, we need to be absolutely 100% totally fucking sure beyond any doubt regardless of procedure. So I will not support the death penalty.
And that brings us to the two issues.
First is that very few people who actually understand how to do it have any interest in writing good execution protocol. Thus a lot of the protocols are written by people without understanding of human physiology. And quite frankly, I would rather that be the case, if only so it is easier to challenge capital punishment.
Second, is that I think some of the people who write these protocols actually want to cause suffering. I say I'm a pilot so I have understanding of hypoxia, but none of my knowledge is unique or difficult to obtain. A quick Google for 'painless death nitrogen' would tell you everything you need to know.
So when I hear that the condemned is breathing his own CO2 from a bag, I conclude that either whoever wrote the protocol doesn't have Google, or they are intentionally writing a protocol that will look good on paper but cause suffering in reality. Or the protocol is being implemented in such a way to cause suffering, for example if the nitrogen flow is not enough. An executioner could easily prolong suffering by simply using less nitrogen, causing the prisoner to breathe CO2 and thus feel panic reaction.
But I think that further illustrates why the death penalty is a bad idea. The fact that the entire stack from prison guard up to Governor isn't 100% focused on a humane death sense to me we need to clean our own house before we start burning others.
- Thank you for making me aware of this. Nitrogen is going to be my go-to method for euthanasia if Alzheimer's or dementia comes knocking on my door. It looks like a little research will be needed to ensure proper, ahem, execution of said plan.
  
  For somebody that actually wants to be dead, nitrogen is the most painless method I am aware of. The key is breathe 100% nitrogen little or no recycled breath or atmosphere air, and have this continue for several minutes. There is no choking sensation or pain. You just get light-headed and pass out and eventually die of hypoxia.
  Look at this video. This guy is training to be a fighter pilot. They put you in a high altitude chamber to create hypoxic effects so you know what to recognize when you're in the air. Fighter pilots breathe pure oxygen delivered through a series of regulators, gang load your regulator means manually select maximum flow rate on all regulators. So the point of this training is to recognize when you get hypoxic so you can crank up your oxygen.
  Point is though, that guy isn't suffering. He's having a blast. He will keep holding up the wrong card and calling it four of spades all day. But that is what happens when the brain is starved of oxygen. If they reduce the oxygen level even farther in that chamber he would pass out, high enough and he would eventually die from it. Breathing 100% nitrogen at sea level does the exact same thing.
  One assisted suicide group built a sort of death pod around this concept. I'm sure you can find it on Google. But the basic concept is it's an enclosure and when you push a button on the inside, a liquid nitrogen tank in the base starts delivering gaseous nitrogen to the pod in enough quantity to push away any CO2 you exhale. They put a ton of research into it, like it has safety interlocks and override switches and I think it can even play music.
  For whatever it's worth, I hope you never have reason to make use of this information. I believe all life is precious.
  But I also think that for somebody with a degenerative disease who's quality of life is going downhill who absolutely 100% is not going to get better, I think the option of choosing to die with dignity rather than suffer for a few more years in an expensive hospital in constant pain is something that should be available. I think that's a very personal decision and there's nobody on the fucking planet who has any right to make it for anyone other than themself.
- Geez you communicated that perfectly.
- In a lot of ways, Lemmy is better than Reddit ever was. Even in its heyday.
- As someone who was once far more pro right to assisted suicide a fundamental element of it being painless is consent or lack of knowledge. People who want to live will struggle to live and hold their breath to agony by pure instinct
  
  This is true. But that's also true of almost any execution method. IE, someone who would die of lethal injection would move in the restraints and try to make it hard to inject them.
- There are a few problems with the ideal solution here tho. They want people around the victim to be able to interact with them (check vitals, comfort them, etc.) but not be in any danger.
  So you need a method that's perfectly fine for the execution, but not the people in the same room.
  It's actually a pretty tricky issue.
  
  Actually with nitrogen it's not tricky at all.
  Gas chambers use toxic cyanide gas which is extremely painful to breathe in. After the execution the corpse has to be decontaminated so it does not poison mortuary workers. This is not a good system.
  The air you are breathing right now is about 80% nitrogen (and 20% oxygen). Nitrogen is all around us. You breathe it with every breath. It is harmless and non-toxic.
  Execution by nitrogen does not kill the prisoner because they are breathing nitrogen. It kills the prisoner because breathing 100% nitrogen means they are not breathing any oxygen. Our bodies need a constant flow of oxygen to survive. Remove that, even by simply displacing all the oxygen with a harmless substitute, and the person dies.
  Thus if done correctly, all you really need is a breathing mask. You can have other people right next to the prisoner during the execution and they will suffer no ill effect as long as the room is generally ventilated.
  
  That's precisely why nitrogen is proposed. It's 70% of the gas you breathe anyway.
  If you take a large room, and flush a basketball sized space with 100% nitrogen, it's no danger to anyone outside that bubble. Even if the bubble is extremely leaky, it takes a long time to change the ratio of gasses in the entire space of the room. Add an exhaust fan and a source of fresh air to the room and everyone in the room outside of the nitrogen bubble would be safe indefinitely.
  That said the death penalty is unjustifiable from any perspective. It does not promote safety morality or justice, nor is it logical even from a coldly economic point of view.
  
  Just do it outdoors?

In theory Nitrogen suffocation should be incredibly humane. Nitrogen gas is incredibly dangerous in the workplace exactly because the human body is incapable of noticing it displacing air. It can kill you without you even noticing until you keel over dead.
Problem is when you shove a mask on someone's face and pump nitrogen into it, that's not what you're doing...
That doesn't displace the air the executed was breathing, because the air has nowhere to go, so it just mixes with the Nitrogen gas. The O2 gets used up and CO2 builds up until they die, which is basically normal suffocation (which is incredibly inhumane) with a side of Nitrogen gas.
To do it properly, you'd need to a much bigger chamber so that the air in the executed's lungs would be easily displaced, or a way to filter the CO2 out of the air they're breathing... But who's got time for that, when you can just torture prisoners with something that should be humane and pretend you have no idea why it "doesn't work properly" /s
- To do it properly, you’d need to a much bigger chamber so that the air in the executed’s lungs would be easily displaced, or a way to filter the CO2 out of the air they’re breathing
  You don't even need any of that, you just need a positive pressure, constant circulation mask that vents a continuous stream of nitrogen, so that any exhaled co2 is immediately flushed out and replaced by nitrogen. But of course nobody on this side of the "just ice" system gives a shit about "improving" such a process.
  
  You don't even need that. Just a decent dust mask that seals over your mouth and nose that has an exhalation port on it, with the nitrogen inlet fitted in place of the dust cartridge. You need a dust mask that has a one way flapper valve over the inlet, which most do. Here's an experiment I did as an emergency fresh air kit: Fill a large wheelie bin garbage bag with air and duct tape it closed over a 1 inch pipe. Attach the pipe in place of the dust cartridge with duct tape. Put the mask on and breath normally. The bag will deflate over about 15 minutes or so, depending on the size. I noticed no breathing distress like I was getting co2 buildup. If you fill the bag with nitrogen instead of air you have a death machine for $15 in parts. 15 minutes is plenty of time.
- Dunno, a non-rebreather mask would would work as it doesn't let you inhale the exhaled air. So a 100% nitrogen flow through it would be on the more painless methods.
  Of course, those who want the death penalty don't want painless so...
- It can kill you without you even noticing until you keel over dead
  And you'll likely laugh about it while you're dying!
  https://youtu.be/kUfF2MTnqAw

Nitrogen is what they use in those suicide capsules as well. You pass out and then suffocate but wont feel like suffocating because that feeling is not caused by the lack of oxygen but the inrease in co2 levels.
EDIT: to add onto this, carbon dioxide is the exact opposite - a total panic since the first inhalation untill you die. It's known to cause panic attacks even on people who are unable to feel fear due to a brain defect. I know some people euthanize small pets this way thinking it's humane. It's about as humane as burning them alive.
- And none of the states using nitrogen as an execution method have any intention of doing it "properly" (obligatory "death penalty is fundamentally wrong").
  
  Yea, if we assume for the sake of argument that we should be executing people are all, nitrogen gas seems like a pretty good way to do it. I've never made a detailed study, but I've worked with the stuff, and had the safety training. Apparently there is no "danger" signal from the body, and you just keel over.
- There's a video somewhere of a documentarian undergoing oxygen deprivation under medical supervision by pumping nitrogen gas into a sealed room while he attempted to solve a simple geometric puzzle (like one for kids, putting the circle in the circular hole, etc). He felt totally fine the entire time but became euphoric and rapidly declined in cognitive ability - to the point where he could no longer solve the puzzle but was very confident that he was doing very well. When he was supplied with oxygen he reflected on the experience and said he had no idea anything was wrong.
  Now I'm not saying there isn't something I'm missing or don't understand regarding suicide/execution by nitrogen, but as far as I understand it, any discomfort occurs after you've lost consciousness.
  I have a feeling the backlash when states started considering this as an execution method was intended to paint it as less humane than the 3-drug cocktail to propagandize against the death penalty - knowing that if a more humane method were used, the movement against the death penalty would probably lose some supporters. So, they poisoned the well a couple years ago when this conversation first hit the news.
  Now, the real argument against the death penalty is that the state shouldn't have the ability to kill convicts because what is a capital offence can change for arbitrary reasons and the judicial system will always wrongly convict people. But a more visceral argument is that execution is painful and cruel - so take away the pain and you lose the folks you've persuaded using that argument.
  
  I've had it happen to me, unintentionally. I worked in a retail store with a helium tank for inflating balloons. We thought it was the height of comedy to take a breath of helium when we did our overhead announcements. I decided to make a long announcement, so I exhaled as much as possible and took a deep breath of helium. The next thing I remember, I'm on the ground, my head hurts, and people are asking me if I'm okay. Apparently I made it about three steps before collapsing. I have no recollection of walking or passing out.
  
  It was Dustin from the YT channel SmarterEveryDay
  https://youtu.be/kUfF2MTnqAw
  
  I think the fundamental difference between that experiment and the "suicide capsules" vs the death penalty is that in the *former the people going into it are doing so willingly. I imagine people undergoing the same procedure involuntarily will probably resist, hold their breath, panic, do whatever they can to sabotage the process, etc. The reason this method is rarely used to euthanise pets is precisely because of this - the animals get stressed (as many often do at the vet where they need to be for the procedure) panic, react, and it takes way longer than it should as a result.
  Edit: edited for clarity

I don’t really support death row, but I did always wonder - do they ever ask the prisoners if they have a preference? I feel like I’d take the good ole’ guillotine over asphixiation.
- Ehhhhhhhhh, I think I'd prefer gentle asphyxiation by nitrogen or a lethal dose of morphine or sudden teleportation to the center of a star.
  
  That’s some commitment. I gotta imagine that unsafely ejecting all peripherals puts the brain in a major panic.
  
  I hear barotrauma is pretty much instantaneous, hell you could even send me to go work on some undersea cables for a bit and just don’t tell me when my time’s up

The purpose of humane executions is to relieve pain and discomfort to capital punishment supporters. It's not a worthy goal.
If you oppose capital punishment, then you should prefer the most horrific and cruel methods because that at least forces the public to face the cruelty done in their name.
- This is why I think if we’re going to excute people it should be by firing squad. Death is nearly instant for the person affected, but it shows quite well the barbarism and cruelty of the act to witnesses and executioners.
- The public is barbaric, they're going to enjoy it.
  
  Imagine the streaming revenue.

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