1d ago

Linus responds to Hellwig - "the pull request you objected to DID NOT TOUCH THE DMA LAYER AT ALL... if you as a maintainer feel that you control who or what can use your code, YOU ARE WRONG."

lore.kernel.org Re: Rust kernel policy - Linus Torvalds

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/25857381

Hellwig is the maintainer of the DMA subsystem. Hellwig previously blocked rust bindings for DMA code, which in part resulted in Hector Martin from stepping down as a kernel maintainer and eventually Asahi Linux as a whole.

Linux @programming.dev

cm0002 @lemmy.world

1d ago

Linus responds to Hellwig - "the pull request you objected to DID NOT TOUCH THE DMA LAYER AT ALL... if you as a maintainer feel that you control who or what can use your code, YOU ARE WRONG."

lore.kernel.org /rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wgLbz1Bm8QhmJ4dJGSmTuV5w_R0Gwvg5kHrYr4Ko9dUHQ@mail.gmail.com/

170 35

Asahi Linux @lemmy.world

Leaflet @lemmy.world

1d ago

Linus responds to Hellwig - "the pull request you objected to DID NOT TOUCH THE DMA LAYER AT ALL... if you as a maintainer feel that you control who or what can use your code, YOU ARE WRONG."

lore.kernel.org /rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wgLbz1Bm8QhmJ4dJGSmTuV5w_R0Gwvg5kHrYr4Ko9dUHQ@mail.gmail.com/

84 36

81 comments

A lot of people commenting on this seem to have gaps in their knowledge of what happened. I highly recommend reading the linked email, as it is both short and has valuable context.
- A lot of people commenting on this seem to have gaps in their knowledge of what happened
  We're in a Linus-email-🍿-thread, so that kind of goes without saying doesn't it? 😂
- Is there an easy way of seeing the preceding emails in a threaded format?
  I read some posted yesterday that were related but it's damn confusing whether the conversation has been active in between?
  https://feddit.uk/comment/15366243
  
  On the bottom of the page you have a tree representation of replies, with clickable links to each message. The layout might not work well on mobile with limited screen width though, but you can just click through them.

Are we hating on Linus here or agreeing with him? I'm so out of the loop.
- Excuse me sir why would You ever disagree with our king linus
- Agreeing

Linus ain't wrong tho
- I really appreciated him saying 'I don't want yes men, I need people to call me on my bullshit, but I'm calling you out on yours'.
  I read through the next few replies, and it seems like the anti-rust maintainer just has an axe to grind and can't stand people working in a language they don't understand.
  
  He understands Rust and claims to like it. He simply disagrees with the decision to have a mixed language kernel and is trying to unilaterally stop it from happening.
- He is totally correct and it is great to see him finally step in to settle this drama.

Gee Linus you think you could've fucking said something before it got to this point?
- Yah took him long enough and should have never got to this point. Now we have lost a contributer.
  
  We've lost two this week
- Sometimes you gotta let people try to resolve things on their own first.
  
  Yes but that clearly was not happening. And now they lost a contributor for no reason.
- Internal politics is a bitch 😩
- What do you mean? He did step in, understood absolutely no context of the issue, told everyone to shut up, and then left without any real input. Fucking joke
- Sometimes when you're celebrating someone's judgement, don't shit on their judgement.

People really afraid of Rust out here.
- I can relate. I can emphasize with someone who's learned every nuance of a language, and after 30-40 years suddenly these kids come in with their strange hieroglyphics slowly replacing everything you've worked on.
  
  Except that's literally the reality with computers. Everything evolves and things go obsolete. I'm sure the COBOL and Fortran programmers were pissed when the kids started using C too.
- It literally wasn't about Rust specifically though. Christoph literally said it was about anything that was not C, including assembly, C++, brainfuck, or whatever, entering the kernel. Christoph likes Rust. Christoph (rightfully) does not like mixed language codebases for projects as large and important as Linux
  
  (rightfully) does not like mixed language codebases for projects as large and important as Linux
  You make it sound like it's a matter of taste rather than a technical one (and I suspect it actually might be just about taste in the end)
  
  Not his call, as we can see now
  
  But isn’t this in specific just about bindings?
  
  Rust is straight up better than C. It's safer and less prone to errors.
  It's not feasible to convert the entire Linux codebase at once. So your options are to either have a mixed codebase, or stick with effectively Cobol into 2020.

Anyone got more context on this I can read through? I haven't kept up with this other than Linus's notorious attitude.
- Someone submitted some code to the Linux kernel. One of the maintainers repeatedly denied it for no reason other than it contained code that is not C. A different contributor became very angry, lashed out publicly on social media, accused the maintainer of sabotaging R4L for no technical reason, then removed themselves from the project. They were also the founder of Asahi Linux and resigned from that as well.
  It's nothing to do with Rust, specifically.
  
  Marcan is not the submitter. Unless I've missed something, the submitter is still working on the patch.
  
  Yeah that is a very opinionated description. Up until “the submitter became very angry, lashed out” that sounds about right, but from there on, your bias shows. Which is fine, and human, but probably worth mentioning this to others reading this. It’s not exactly an objective view, whatever that’s worth.
- It's mostly in that linked thread. The high level of it is a guy wanted to push Rust code. The maintainer said no it would mean the API for this would be tied to Rust and that is unacceptable. It cause another big contributer to throw a fit and Linus said he can't be everyone's mom. They kept fighting for like 2 months apparently? Now Linus stepped in, looked at the code and said the Rust code clearly doesn't impact the API in the way the maintainer was saying it just breaks itself if the maintainers allow changes to the API.
  I kinda dislike the idea that it's cool for people to contribute code that is so easy to break. I have a feeling after it happens a few times they are going to claim that it is being done intentionally and that the slap fights will carry on.
  
  I do not know why you say it is easy to break.
  The Rust team are maintaining their side. I do not expect it to break. And the C code that the Rust code depends on is used by lots of other code. It should be a stable interface. Changing the C code just to break the Rust code would break a lot of C code too and upset a lot of folks.
  And the who point is to create a more idiomatic interface on the Rust side. So, even if the c interface does change, it may only be a small amount of Rust code that needs to change in response.
  
  Thanks for the summary, I did a bit of reading myself. It's interesting the dynamics at play here - you've got a long, long term contributor in Hellwig who's been a maintainer since before Rust even existed, then you've got quite a few people championing Rust being introduced into the kernel. I feel like Hellwig's concerns must have more to do with the long term sustainability of the Rust code - like will there be enough Rust developers 10, 20, 30 years down the line. I mean, even if it stays maintained, having multiple languages in a codebase increases complexity and makes it harder to contribute. Then you have Filho resigning from the Rust for Linux project, which in itself kind of calls into question the long term sustainability of the project. It seems like Rust would have quite a few benefits for the Linux kernel, but the question remains of if it's still gonna be any good in a few decades. This is juicy stuff!

God damn if these Rust glazers are so offended by this, just go work on Redox
- You mean the operating system with a cuckold license? Nothx
- What does glazer mean in this context? (English is my fourth language)
  
  (slang) Someone who glazes (to compliment or praise someone excessively in a cringeworthy way); an asskisser or sycophant.
  Wiktionary
  
  What does glazer mean in this context? (English is my fourth language)
  English is my first language and I also wondered. The definition in the other reply to you was only added to wiktionary last year. According to know your meme, it became popular on TikTok in 2023 and allegedly originated on discord in November 2021.
  (wiktionary also has another definition which I've also never heard of before which has been there since 2007 with no quotations or other evidence of actual use...)
  
  "Glazing" is slang for over-complimenting, often to an obsessive degree

- Actual Linux news rather than "which distro should I use for gaming and bit torrents?"
  
  New people don't realize that Linux is really a soap opera with a small software project attached.
- Linux news

81 comments