Allyship rule
ID: Drawing of a duck billed platypus underwater, they're wearing a rainbow coloured t shirt and a pink bum-bag, and saying: "Ally is not something you can self-identify as, it's a title that you earn. Let your actions speak for themselves!"
Credit: Sophie Labelle
Counterpoint: you can absolutely self identify as an Ally. For example, I self identity as an Ally and there ain’t shit this adorable platypus can do to stop me.
I’m an Ally because I choose to be, by my words and my actions and the example I set for my children every day. I don’t need an attaboy from any marginalized group to confirm I’m on the right side of history. We do what’s right because it’s right. Full stop.
While I agree with the sentiment, it's like labelling yourself "a good neighbor" or a "best friend". You don't get to decide if you're "a good neighbor" or not - your neighbors do. You don't get to decide if you are someone's best friend - they do. In the exact same way, you don't get to decide if you're an ally or not - the group that you're allied with does.
You can strive to be a good person and identify with being one if that label has been given to you, but certain labels, including "ally", aren't ones you can just give yourself.
I can also respect OP and the artists point of view (if they’re not the same individual, not sure if OP is sharing an original piece or someone else’s work) but I just disagree that people don’t get to “be called Allies” unless someone else gives them that title. Being an ally to me is not an honorific, it’s a series of choices.
Who do you self identify as an ally of? France? Bosnia? Laos? Do you have a treaty?
Counterpoint: you can absolutely identify as a socialist. For example, the German Nazi party identified as Socialist and there aint shit you can do to stop them /s
also
by my words and actions and the example I set
he confused, but he got the spirit XD
Oooh there's one for my bingo card. Comment to Nazis in one.
Centring yourself, talking over, and refusing to listen to the marginalised people whose side you claim to be on - the self identified ally personified!
Genuinely impressive how ignorant and presumptive this reply is. I’m assuming you’re young and I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that your intentions are good here. It seems like you’ve had some bad experiences with bad faith allies in the past and if so, that sucks, and I’m sorry for that. But this is misplaced rage and your energy would probably be better spent elsewhere. I am not your enemy and I never will be.
No one is in charge of how someone identifies except themselves.
You keep being an ass to people and you won’t have to worry about anyone wanting to be your ally.
Wtf? Lol
Before I realized and came out as bi, I was in the GSA (gay-straight alliance) in high school as a "straight." My state was voting to ban gay marriage at the time, and we campaigned against it. I got just as much if not more hate from people than the LGBT members. Maybe because they viewed them as a lost cause? It was usually adults yelling at a 17-year-old kid for being a "betrayer" and a "pervert lover" (I liked that one), just because I supported two consenting adults marrying regardless of gender. Staunch allies definitely earn the title.
This sentiment is pretty much why the progressive movement is fucked.
The right leans hard into meme warfare, using whatever propaganda opportunities they can.
Meanwhile the left has endless debates about the purity of their efforts.
We’re so fucked.
And you post things with titles such as 'duck billed platypus'.
No, it's right. You can't form an alliance with somebody without their consent. If you want to be someone's ally, they're allowed to disagree.
This isn't about purity, but you tell yourself whatever you need to to avoid engaging in the mild discomfort of unlearning and challenging your existing bias and the status quo, I guess.. ¯(ツ)/¯
This is reinforcing their point though. The person you're responding to almost certainly supports you unconditionally. But you're at odds here because of a difference in experience/strife.
I recognize I have no horse in the race, but I do go out of my way to offer support. All I'm saying is your efforts are better spent fighting actual bigotry.
I got mine from the Emperor of Gay People in the mail just this Friday. I framed it and put it next to my n-word pass on the mantle.
Is that like a one time n-word pass or are you fully certified?
Certified, but I have to kiss Jesse Jackson's ass every 3 years and maintain NAACP membership for recertification
Divide and conquer is a strategy as old as time. Can’t fault you for trying.
Slightly unrelated rant.
I'm tried of these culture wars. It's complete nonsense. I'm not particularly LGBT+ but it shouldn't matter. This is about freedom for fucks sake! People just want to live and exercise their human rights! Anybody telling others they mustn't exist their way is an enemy of humanity! The fact that people get denied jobs and even have their rights restricted, just because some asshole finds out the ID doesn't match is fucking repulsive!
Recently had a chat with my aunt and she just "you can't expect people to immediately accept changes", shut the fuck up! It's not a change! It's a core value that's been in our constitution for longer than any of us have been alive. But clearly, despite being raise on these values, I'm the only one who believes them. Like some fucking santa claus shit!
I've had people misgender me and try to convince me not to transition and then go claim to be trans allies because they don't call people slurs and will say that killing trans people is bad if asked
That sucks. It's bigotry and then gaslighting, and then on top of it all we're somehow to blame for them being that way because we're not eternally grateful and fawn all over them for reluctantly giving us the barest of bare minimum decency and respect, and therefor leave them no choice (in their eyes of course).
Help us out though, what can we do to be better allies? I try to be a good one, but I don't know if I'm coming up short.
To the kind of person that draws and publishes a gay platypus comic? As much performative kowtowing as possible knowing that nothing can ever be enough. Consistently voting against conservative bullshit and treating gay people like you'd treat anyone else your entire life certainly isn't enough. It's like how the Westboro Baptists don't think you're a real Christian unless you're currently lighting a family planning center on fire. The people who are REALLY FUCKING INTO IT are mostly just making the moderates on their side look like puckered assholes.
Is it not about being as fair as you can? This is my approach at least .__.
When you see someone being queerphobic, call them out. Tell them they're wrong. And if they waste time arguing with you, that's time they're too busy to attack a queer person to their face.
That‘s honestly a terribly broad question.
What are the people you are allies to telling you they want or are missing? Are you helping them in achieving what they want?
What are you doing for them besides that and do you think it is the right thing to do?
And yeah I don’t know, coming up short is a pretty loaded phrase. Some struggles we might still lose and still we have to fight regardless and relentlessly. And if you „fall short“ just try to do more, as well as the fact that we cannot all provide the same kind of support so its gonna be very personally biased either way
Step 1: learn how to do your own work instead of expecting (or even demanding) marginalised people expend our time, energy, and emotional labour doing it for you.
You're doing everything you can to push well-meaning people away lol
This smug copypasta can be applied to any minority or marginalized group, but it’s still not helpful.
Intersectionalism is important because everyone has a different experience - to expect me to internalize their struggles by reading a book or watching a video essay is absurd. You need to tell your story, we need to give space and listen. Crossing your arms and saying “do your own research” is unproductive - a well meaning ‘normie’ who is not terminally online doesn’t know where to start, autodidacts are almost have terribly shallow knowledge pools.
You, the person living through your experience, are the subject matter expert - why reject that authority that people have granted you and shown that they are ready and willing to listen to you?
This attitude is actually absurd
I guess I'll stop trying to improve.
You're right, it sucks being told how you can and can't identify. The purpose of the post seems to be to motivate allies to take more action to help. But I agree that the phrasing is problematic.
Just keep being supportive of LGBT people in real life and ignore random memes online. I consider wearing a pin as an action that qualifies as an ally. It's looking like LGBT people might need more help than just a pin with the way governments are heading.
Also if you are dealing with people online, consider that they may be bots or trolls who may not even be LGBT purposely attempting to cause division.
The point is - if it's for your sister... Ask your sister.
The feeling of "What am I supposed to do?" is totally natural, and something you have in common with a lot of queer people. The simple answer is "Your best".
If the pin helps your sister, then you've earned the title of ally. Does it?
"I have a marginalised sister who I want to support, but a generalised post on the internet that I took as a personal attack (if the shoe fits ¯(ツ)/¯ ) hurt my feelings by not prioritising them above her oppression and the oppression of those like her, and didn't make sure to centre me and praise me for my minimal empathy every step of the way, so now I'm not gonna! I'M tHe rEaL vIctiM hEre! sToP oPprEsSiNg mE!!!11" 🙄
You self identified allies just can't fucking help but out yourselves, can you?
I have been active for decades in support of LGBT rights. Your commentary here is poisonous enough to bother me. This is not the way.
That person wants you to tell them what to do. They're looking to you as a leader. Embrace the opportunity to make change by being a good leader who gives clear instructions.
it can be as simple as flying a rainbow flag
My wife and I are queer and have a pride flag on our house. One day a couple of kids came to our door while we were out of town. I was very worried because they were young and alone in the evening and we weren't home. We answered them with the doorbell camera. They said they were queer and just wanted us to know that they're happy to see pride flags in the area to know they're not alone.
Oh, wow, so many questions! Is that the new tactic? Tell folks they can't be free to identify how they feel now? Gee, I don't see that going well for acceptance becoming common place but, whatta I know? Seems kinda on par with having been told, "... you don't get to choose your gender, god does..."
How do we get or give these official "ally" titles to pass out? Do they need to be notarized or is there another way to make sure they are genuine? Is there a checklist or website available to ensure worthiness before certifying an ally? Is there a membership cost? Are all lgbtq+ folks allowed to certify, or only particular groups?
I have sooo many more but those seem important to start and avoid any penalties. ...Oh shit, are there penalty fines??
Hand over your antifa membership card right now!
You get to choose if you're an ally through your actions. If you already do good things to help queer people, then this post has nothing to do with you. The only reason for you to be worried by this post is if you don't think you've done enough. Is that what's going on here?
Entering an alliance with someone requires their consent. You can't just declare you're allies with France, you have to go talk to a French diplomat first. If you don't, then you're free to help France, but France won't protect you from invaders. If you declare that you're allied with France without asking them, they might go tell the international community that you're a liar. That would be a reasonable thing for France to do.
Fortunately, being an ally to queer people is much easier than being an ally of France. Drag is sure you can manage it if you present a strong enough ambassadorial case.
Okay, except lgbt people are not a state and don’t have any diplomats. But even nation states have detractors who don’t agree with the decisions made by the current head of state.
I think people are mad at this post because they don’t like that someone else should appoint themselves the arbiter of someone else’s morality or righteousness.
But there’s no “doing the right thing” people club. No one can tell anyone they aren’t an ally if that person is doing what they can against bigotry and discrimination.
Tbh, I just worry that someone who is judging people by arbitrary purity criteria is going to end up friendless or miss out on friends.
That said, don’t accept shitty friends. If someone isn’t living up to your code, then it’s acceptable to discount them as your friend, but I think it’s unacceptable to say that they’re a bigot or they’re discriminatory (unless they are).
Oh yeah, because your support of marginalised people is exactly like our gender, or any other immutable characteristic we get oppressed and even murdered for, well done!!! We should have realised all along - it's the privileged people who get to look at our oppression from the side line and decide whether to support our right to exist depending on how nice we were to them, who are the real victims here!!! (heavy fucking /s)
What's next, you gonna come out with your own "blue lives matter" - "ally lives matter"??
Fucking pathetic, but hey, thanks for adding yet another example of exactly the kind of person this post is talking about.
You are not an ally to anyone but your own fragile little ego,
ITT people are thinking this post is about them, but it feels like it's more targeted at the "The A is for ally!" types. (Thinking A in LGBTQIA is for ally instead of asexual.)
Why not both? 🤷♀️
I feel like the two groups are close to a circle in a Venn diagram - privileged people there to make it about themselves (in the form of self aggrandization and claiming non-existent victimhood and marginalisation) rather than about the marginalised people they claim to support (and only do superficially and entirely conditionally).
This attitude is why I generally only speak to my sister about trans stuff (she is trans); because even though I support the idea and want to learn more to be more supportive, a good chunk of the time I've been labeled a transphobe. It's the one pattern I recognize with the community that irks me so much. The refusal to answer innocent questions about what shit is like for you, and assuming anyone who isn't trans asking about trans stuff is a transphobe simply begging the question.
We will seemingly never earn the right to be allies so long as we are CIS.
Cis is a prefix, not an acronym, you don’t have to all caps it. And if you weren’t cis then you wouldn’t be an ally, you’d be part of the community; allies are cis by definition.
Try to understand that for most trans people, they encounter a shit ton of dishonest “questions” that are actually just ways for people to be transphobic . If 9 people punch you in the face after saying “knock knock,” you’d be telling the next person that says “knock knock” to fuck off, too.
There is also a non-zero chance that whatever you’re asking is a right wing talking point you’ve absorbed after it’s been laundered through various dog whistles. Which isn’t a personal flaw, right wing shit is prioritized by algorithms and media. Even trans people have to unlearn a lot of this shit. It’s even possible you just independently came up with similar phrasing or reasoning without realizing it had associations with right wing shit. But trans people just seeing your comment in isolation can’t know that.
Given the unprecedented existential threats to trans people going on right now in the US (likely where most of these people you’re talking to are from), maybe extend a little grace. On top of the general trauma of living as a scapegoat minority, many are losing or may soon lose health care and other rights. Expecting people to behave perfectly in the face of that is unrealistic.
I’m not saying don’t feel however you feel about it when someone blows up at you, just recognize the context of it.
I do also hate the dog whistle shit. You know how I end up learning what dog whistles exist? Because I say something with innocent intent that some fucking neonazis co-opted without my knowledge and get assblasted for it because I tend not to hang around bigots to know their stupid lingo. 😠
Ignorant I may be; but the only hate I have is for hatemongers.
Ask drag as many questions as you like. Drag will answer in good faith, and if you say something that makes drag uncomfortable, drag will be specific and explain why drag is uncomfortable.
Most other trans people aren't going to be patient with you, because you opened this conversation by assuming hostility from them. They'd rather answer the questions of someone who asks from a neutral or agreeable starting position. Drag will answer your questions anyway.
When trying to learn more you have to approach certain subjects with a lot of care. Something which you probably haven't been doing or doing very well if you've been accused of being a transphobe a lot. I'm not saying there aren't awful people who throw those accusations around, I've certainly met a few, but the majority are not like that, so if you have been called a transphobe a lot you've probably not been approaching the subject with care and sensitivity.
Also almost if not all allies are cisgender, that's what an ally is it's someone who isn't part of the group who is advocating for the rights and safety of the group. Honestly saying that cis people won't be allies is nonsense.
This comment is honestly extremely disrespectful.
It only pushes away the "potential allies" who are unwilling to do anything to help queer people. Who aren't allies.
Taking actions to be an Ally has risks for folks in some places. Where I am LBGTQA+ support is the norm and doesn't really need to be spoken and when it is I've never heard anyone in over 10 years say a negative thing.
I have online though seen folks who try to speak up in Allyship of someone else get taken down. Subjected to purity tests by folks in an LGBTQA+ supporting community. It felt like the same bi erasure I've experienced and the same transphobia I've seen from parts of the LG community in the 2000s. It's like saying someone isn't gay if they haven't come out. All it does is lessen the crew.
LGBTQA+ shouldnt be treated as a club with a rainbow dress code. It should be the future default standpoint of all of humanity.
Hmm, I wonder what I managed to accomplish in the womb
Wow, this thread had me bringing out the ban hammer a lot!
Yeah and judging by the modlog, pretty arbitrary. I was expecting transphobia or similar, but the banned people were just annoyed by OPs "smugness" and then ban reasons are "you're not the victim" or "playing victim when told he has to earn allyship"??? These are not real reasons no? Im not suggesting a power trip but are you OPs aunt in need of defending them or what.
There is no space on this instance or its communities for "allies" who think the tone of queer folks comics is the real issue that needs to be talked about
Thank you so much for diving in to the cesspit, I knew there would be some push back, there always is, but I didn't think it'd get this bad (and I have a lot of these people blocked already, so I can only imagine, because I'm not going to look, not today satan!). Sorry you have to spend your time dealing with the mess! 😩
How dare you accuse me of being an ROG ally. I am clearly a steam deck.
I don't like the "Ally" term. I don't get it. Feminist thinks the equality of man and woman, but the existence of the ally term make a distinction into feminist and allys, that it's just a genre thing. So you are saying there are no equality between male and famele at all.
Literally what are you even talking about
/u/Nexy is confused about the difference between a political view and an identity.
They are correct that there isn't really a difference between being an ally of a political movement like Feminism and being a member of that movement (although I think that movements/organizations with different priorities can be allies with a movement like Feminism, e.g.) a person is either a Feminist or not a Feminist there's nobody that's an ally of Feminism.
But there is a difference between advocating for rights for people with minority Sexual Orientation and Gender Identities (SOGIs), and being a person that is 2SLGBTQI. If we had a word that encapsulated the movement like Feminism does then we wouldn't need to tack on "ally". SOGI-ism? Good luck.
I too am very confused and would like to know
I agree with speaking with your actions here, but at the same time, this seems like some weirdly unnecessary gatekeeping.
If you're not actually doing any allyship, in what sense are you an ally?
Theoretical allyship is irrelevant.
Simply saying out loud you support it IS supporting it.
I mean, it's the minimum amount, but thats more than none.
What is allyship to you?
Does one need to be overtly politically active or can one simply change minds in their social circles?
Must they sign petitions and call politicians or can they simply be a comforting or understanding shoulder to a marginalised person?
How much legwork is required to be an Ally? Is there a scorecard to keep in order to meet criteria?
Obviously, passive acceptance without any action isn't explicit allyship but must one be openly militant about LGBT issues in order to be considered an ally?
Does the real answer not lie somewhere in between? Maybe on a spectrum or sliding scale?
Part of it may be identifying as an ally as a first step. If you internaliz "I am an ally" your future actions will probably more align with that identity. People like to be true to themselves, let them identify as good things without gatekeeping it.
Values guide action. Humans can use cognitive rules to exhibit entirely new behaviors in entirely new situations, behaviors that are consistent with the cognitive rules. Theory may not be relevant if the situation doesn’t activate the relevant neural networks, but if someone doesn’t have ‘ally values’ how do you think they will behave in the future?
If someone feels like this post (or any other boundary set by the people they claim to want to support) is keeping them from being an ally, they never were one in the first place.
I don't think this post is keeping anyone from being an ally, it just kinda sounds like there is some authority that decides if you are an ally or not.
I think your core message is "don't go around telling people you're an ally, go BE an ally", but it could be misinterpreted.
Are you saying that everyone who disagrees with you personally isn't an ally of the entire group?
Absolutely unhinged