I'd also like to see more imagery of Jesus smashing up the temple rather than him calmly sitting under a tree.
It's easy for religious figures to be depicted as tranquil. They are often all-knowing, and if not, have faith in something all-knowing. They can blindly believe that everything will be fine, even if right now things look bad.
Because sky-daddy will take care of things.
This is nothing to do with actual tranquility (in the sense of passaddhi), which is basically the opposite of everything you are describing.
You don't cultivate tranquility by not knowing "not caring" about worldly factors; you cultivate tranquililty by abandoning the five hindrances (covetousness, ill-will, sloth, agitation, and compulsive questioning).
The Upanisa Sutta says that tranquillity comes from rapture and leads to happiness (the Samaññaphala Sutta repeats this). The precondition for tranquility is rapture, not "not caring about the state of the world".
Tranquility is a mind that maintains a spacious calm in the face of adverse conditions. It's nothing like what you're saying.
Your view is harmful because you're saying that someone without tranquility (with covetousness, ill-will, sloth, agitation, and compulsive questioning, without rapture), will be better equipped to deal with worldly problems, but the exact opposite is true: tranquility creates the space to deal with worldly problems more effectively. It's harmful to advocate for hindrances because you claim that means people "care" more.
I struggle to consider myself a pacifist as the paradox of tolerance is a difficult thing to have to come to terms with and I'm fundamentally a flawed human being, but I so fundamentally hate the presumed human cost of "just doing business". I am filled with a searing, incandescent rage at all times, fueled entirely by the hypocrisy of liberal ideology and the cruelty of conservatives. I'm burning up and trying to avoid melting down just getting through the day, surrounded by people who seemingly willingly refuse to understand nuance on hot issues or that complicated problems oftentimes require complicated solutions. I'm tired, boss.
a pacifist as the paradox of tolerance is a difficult thing to have to come to terms with and I'm fundamentally a flawed human being
Don't think of it as a paradox - tolerance is a social contract, once you break the terms you're no longer protected by that contract because accepting that would nullify the contract for all of us.
The thing is, you can be full of rage and still be against violence. Expressing rage doesn't have to be violent. People express rage in all sorts of non-violent ways, like writing or painting or sculpting.
My biggest weakness and most toxic trait is wanting to see bad people face consequences. That person weaving through traffic at high speeds without a turn signal, with no concern for the safety of everybody else on the road? Please drive off the road, crash, do something that drives home how selfish you are acting, and I hope it's expensive.
Politician campaigning on hate and saying that religion punishes 'wicked' people? I hope a loved one suffers some horrible disease and dies in pain.
Vote for an anti-abortion law? Watch your wife or daughter die of something entirely preventable. Refuse to provide exceptions for rape? Do unto others and all that, you know?
Nazi/christofascist/white supremacist? Worm food. Slowly.
I fix things, that's my whole driving purpose in life, and basically the only thing I'm particularly good at. I have never been very creative, I suck at writing , I'm not a great artist or sculptor or musician. It causes me so much pain and frustration to not be able to fix something, and so much rage to see people deliberately breaking things, doubly so when they delight in the suffering it causes.
Pacifism doesn't mean you don't get angry. It basically just means that you don't think violence should be the first option.
Like, I'm a pacifist, but I wouldn't think twice about using lethal force to defend my life or others if no other peaceful option existed. But I'll always try non-violent approaches first.
Not to gatekeep pacifism, but I would really struggle to justify taking another human life, even when seeing red. It would probably take long enough to get over that hurdle for what I was trying to prevent to occur. I am a physically large man and could do a lot of damage, so when I've been hit in the past I've found other methods of de-escalating the situation. Not applicable in every situation. But it would be something I'd have to put a lot of thought into.
that's exactly it. i grew up naively believing in peace. i still do. i have tried every angle to make the world a better place in a non violent manner. i've exhausted my options.
“It’s strange how pain marks our faces, and makes us look like family.”
I am with you. Much of it is that I got this far in life without intentionally causing harm to folks. If I was younger in this day and age and im not sure I could go the distance.
I still like the Doctor Who take on it. "Demons run when a good man goes to war."
Demons run when a good man goes to war
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war
Friendship dies and true love lies
Night will fall and the dark will rise
When a good man goes to war
Demon’s Run, but count the cost
The battle’s won but the child is lostNothing good happens when a good man goes to war
But I also like the saying "If you want peace prepare for war". War is not the right choice, but it's seldom yours.
But I also like the saying "If you want peace prepare for war".
It's the cornerstone of the Security Dilemma: Increasing your own state's security by increasing military strength may be threatening to other states that don't know whether you're just improving defenses or gearing up for an offensive war.
Particularly in pre-modern times where land was more valuable (compared to developing the land you already have) and battle wasn't so destructive, war was more profitable, the threat was real. With the development of modern arms and mass mobilisation escalating the scale and destruction of war, the distinction between defensive and offensive militarisation is even harder to tell, and even though it's not as lucrative, we haven't outgrown the martial impulses so the issue remains.
So because you want to be safe, you improve your military. Because you improve your military, your neighbour fears for their own safety, so they improve theirs. This is why international relations and diplomacy are so important to prevent a runaway arms race.
I once played D&D with a paladin who basically followed this. He was an Oath of Vengeance paladin. For the unaware, OoV paladins often have zero chill. They’re typically something akin to Batman with magic powers. My goal was to avoid that.
His oath had something along the lines of “Without the capacity for violence, pacifism is not a choice. Pacifism without choice is victimhood. I will choose pacifism whenever possible, but will not watch idly when people are victimized. I will ensure the victimized are made whole, and the victimizers know the pain they have caused.”
Basically, he would try his best to talk his way through encounters first. He would give enemies every opportunity to back down. He had incredibly high charisma to try and persuade, intimidate, or deceive others out of attacking. After all, he was attempting to choose pacifism whenever possible. But if he believed that a bully was victimizing someone, the gloves came off and he channeled all of his pent-up fury into making the bully regret their actions. And since paladins use charisma to cast their spells, his smites were painful.
The DM loved it, because it helped us avoid falling into the murderhobo trope that combat-oriented D&D players often fall into. It also gave him a chance to actually flesh out some of the NPCs who would have just been throwaway no-name combatants.
Sounds like Maj. Dick Winters in Band of Brothers (and real life)
Yeah, although the Doctor is pretty hypocritical with his pacifism. Something which this quote sums up pretty well. He did kill several species after all.
"Amy Pond. Get. Your. Coat."
Demons worry when the wizard walks by.
I've expressed a similar sentiment as "it's easy to be enlightened up on a mountain." As in, big whoop to all the wise hermits who fled society to find peace: that's not being above the problems of the world (except literally), it's hiding from them and pretending that ignorance can be bliss again. The real work is maintaining peace and wisdom in the face of monstrous injustice.
The absolute state of the religion-understanders in this thread.
If you've never read one work about finding peace thru mysticism, why voice an opinion about it? I'm not here voicing an opinion on Finnish politics.
Avatar does this great. Aang is a pacifist because that's part of his culture, and he's the last one left to embody his culture's values so he doesn't feel he can abandon them. But that boy has some anger issues. Especially when the bad guys hurt animals.
You muzzled Appa?
I read that in Katara's voice
Tempered rage might come across as tranquil, but it would be nice to have hints in the narrative. Reminds me of this line about Bruce controlling the Hulk: “That’s my secret, Cap: I’m always angry.”
Calm like a bomb.
You know, Dude, I myself dabbled in pacifism once. Not in 'Nam of course.
I, too, and a pissedifist.
Tranquility is a real trait that some people have. It's not a common one.
For most people, a prerequisite feeling for tranquility, is contentment.
And trust me, no pacifist is "content" with the current state of the world. "Worry-free" is literally in the first sentence on the wikipedia page of the word, and I don't think anyone can be that, except temporarily and/or by being inebriated.
The only way I know to be tranquil, is to ignore the world, and willfully focus only on the good things in my immediate surroundings, in my life specifically.
Essentially, to get there I have to take a break from caring about most things. I don't like doing that. I want to improve things, and to do that I have to care about things to begin with.
It’s resolution in my experience. My rage is the byproduct of belief made active. It is the choice every day to prove to those around me that a better world is possible and it begins with self fucking control
I’m no pacifist but I’m someone who believes humanity can be better and needs to seriously think when utilizing the power to harm
It's complicated.
As elsewhere stated, outward tranquility doesn't necessarily indicate internal state. And even still, it is possible to exert some control over your emotions, it's a skill that gets more effective with practice.
I myself am a fairly tranquil person. This is likely precisely because of very non tranquil conditions growing up. I'd wager this is the case for most counterintuitively calm people. You learn not to succumb to the initial stress response of panic or anger: take a breath, look at your situation calmly, determine an effective course of action, execute that course of action calmly and deliberately. Anger clouds your judgement, encourages you to make rash decisions. Whatever your problem, tranquility helps you to solve it cleanly without creating new problems.
Additionally, as your empathy grows, you have less and less anger towards individuals, as you recognize their transgressions are themselves symptoms of their own panic and anger. It's hard to be angry at scared, lost, and lonely people clutching at ideologies designed explicitly to prey on their insecurities.
I think it's best portrayed in The Invisibles where, after spending the entirety of the story building up an epic ideological war between the forces of authoritarianism and freedom, we're told "We lied. We are not at war. There is no enemy. This is a rescue operation." Daryl Davis fights intolerance without anger towards his potential converts.
So what does that leave us? Righteous anger at abstract ideologies and systems that ensnare insecure people into a web of hatred and vitriol. But anger isn't useful against abstract ideologies and systems, they are cold and emotionless. Some might claim it is, but they're conflating anger with resolve; anger can help maintain resolve, but it isn't necessary. It is quite possible to be tranquil and resolutely opposed to tyrannical and hateful ideology. Personally, I think it's more effective than visibly brimming with rage.
Well said. We don't have control over a lot of things but we do have some control over how we respond to our emotions. Finding peace amidst the chaos is not easy. Creating peace from chaos is even harder.
Helping others find peace might not be pacifism. I don't know what you'd call it. I dont really care what you call it. But I do know that often the catalysts of change are not the most downtrodden, but rather those who have been empowered to effect change. Thus, change begins by overcoming yourself.
Anger is a poor long-term motivator. What we are looking for is, indeed, resolve.
When you're an anarchist pacifist, but the world makes you so mad, you just wanna kill some people.
Sounds like Vinland Saga
Pretty much, God Hollywood are such liars
Direct action?
I tell people that I’m a pacifist in the same way that Bonhoeffer was.
How many of them know who Bonhoeffer was though?
Not many, but my hope is that anyone interested enough does a little research.
Bonhoeffer’s pacifism is a complicated matter. He believed in nonviolence, but also participated in a plot to kill Hitler.
To summarize him a little…. Sometimes we need to abandon our principles to care for others. My goodness is less important than the wellbeing of those who are oppressed.
Ghandi?
Nope.
It is not that I do not get angry. I don't give vent to my anger. I cultivate the quality of patience as angerlessness, and generally speaking, I succeed. But I only control my anger when it comes. How I find it possible to control it would be a useless question, for it is a habit that everyone must cultivate and must succeed in forming by constant practice.
― Mahatma Gandhi
More like Benjamin Lay.
- pacifism is cowardly when inaction enables bad actors.
- not everyone values peace. never assume that just because you're chill everyone else is too.
- the paradox of tolerance is not a paradox.
- humanity is what you make it. what do you want it to be? MAKE IT THAT.
- don't let the illusion of a peaceful society lull you into a vulnerable trance. plenty of past civilizations never saw their end coming.
- never play fair with your enemy. once you choose violence, your virtues have been compromised. there's nothing noble about it. it's simply what has to be done, so do it effectively.
we will never have the society we are capable of as long as we are caught in a tug of war between narcissism and altruism. as long as the narcissists are allowed a place at the table, they will undermine any attempt at utopia for their own interests.
i believe the 21st century began an era in which the utopia that most considered a pipe dream became a feasible reality. we have all the tools and technology now to create a world in which no one suffers, not even the other species of this planet. to have that reality within reach, and to let greedy fascists, shallow narcissists, and religious zealots derail that future, is to make yourself no better then them.
pacifism is cowardly when inaction enables bad actors.
But pacifism isn't inaction. It is action with the intent to do no harm.
not everyone values peace
The value of peace is social, not individual. You value peace when you know you have everything you want from the status quo. You embrace violence as a means of shifting conditions in your favor.
But violence comes at a grander social price. Simply embracing it because someone else has only compounds the costs.
the paradox of tolerance is not a paradox
The question of a socially acceptable degree of tolerance is a difficult one to answer philosophically and even more difficult to implement as social policy.
It is not strictly a paradox, but it is an unsolved problem.
don’t let the illusion of a peaceful society lull you into a vulnerable trance
The cost of violent action is what dissuades a violent response. People aren't in a trance, they are taking a calculated risk.
never play fair with your enemy
Violating a social compact erodes trust. You reap a short term gain while everyone pays a long term price.
"Playing fair" is about establishing a social compact that everyone recognizes as beneficial. Violating broadly beneficial norms means accruing more enemies with whom you feel compelled to play unfairly.
the utopia that most considered a pipe dream became a feasible reality
The utopian era ended with WW1 and the industrialization of modern warfare. The 21st century has seen wave after wave of new investments in warfare, while domestic improvements and social welfare advances have ground nearly to a halt.
If there is a utopian future, it can only come with the abolition of international militarism. Otherwise, we continue to descend into generation after generation of escalating conflict and unchecked immolation of life and property.
But pacifism isn’t inaction. It is action with the intent to do no harm.
sure thing, pussy
violence comes at a grander social price. Simply embracing it because someone else has only compounds the costs.
hitler needed more americans like you
It is not strictly a paradox, but it is an unsolved problem.
nah
The cost of violent action
the cost of non violent action is to let sociopaths win.
Violating a social compact erodes trust. You reap a short term gain while everyone pays a long term price.
we're fighting for the future of humanity and all the life on this planet. that battle will be decided this century. you're the one that's short sighted.
The utopian era ended with WW1
STFU with your poindexter BS. you know what the fuck i mean when i say utopia. "uh akshually" just STFU
just STFU. you're almost as dense as flying squid
Narcissism is left wing though. That's why Fox News is always trying to brainwash you into thinking narcissism is destroying America. You didn't fall for conservative propaganda, did you?
