5mo ago

Culture shock

206 comments

Ironically, you cannot choose how comfortable the human's life is for most products.
- If you put the eggs up your butt at the grocery store, you can choose how uncomfortable everyone will be.
  
  Username checks out
  
  Egg
  
  Thanks for the laugh, needed it this morning
- Where do you get your human eggs?
  
  Buried in the sand like turtles, where do you get yours?
- Hard as shit to find, but looking for products from worker cooperatives can help you to find free range human goods
- You kind of can depending on where it was made
- There are certifications out there like FairTrade and others that try to make labor less slave-like in the world. Guess you could call that a way of making human life more comfortable
  
  Fair trade basically means the middle men were cut out of the process, increasing profits.
  The people growing coffee for Starbucks are still impoverished.
- In France the « bio » label (https://www.bioagricert.org/en/certification/organic-production/ab-france.html) does bot only take into account ecological properties of the product but also many metrics relative to the social quality of the company and well being of its employees.

Okay but there actually is a pretty significant difference between eggs at the store vs buying them from someone who has chickens.
There was actually an egg shortage a while ago, but lots of people who were raising chickens couldn't sell their eggs because, and I quote, "they were too rich in flavor and texture, so people didn't like them".
It was hilarious and sad that high quality eggs was just something no one ever tasted before, so they couldn't suddenly get used to the flavor.
It'd be like if you drank skim milk your whole life only to find out regular "whole" milk is actually supposed to be creamy lol
- This happened to me. My mother raises hens so when there were big egg shortages, we got some from her. The yolks were so rich that their color was practically orange and they would stain anything they got on. I've never had eggs so delicious and flavorful, plus anything I baked with them came out so rich and delicious. They really were almost overpowering and a little disconcerting to get used to. I'm amazed how bad even the best store bought eggs are now.
  
  This was my exact experience as well! One benefit of a relatively small town is a lot of people have free range hens and you can get some really tasty eggs
  
  Find pasture-raised eggs at your grocery store. Added bugs to the diet helps with the rich yolks.
  
  I always like those eggs for poaching, because they stay together better and taste better.
  
  In the country they dine on fresh eggs from the hen-house, fresh tomatoes from the garden, fresh venison and foraged mushrooms. The food they eat is usually better tasting and better quality than the food billionaires eat.
- 100%. If you break a store egg and a farm egg next to each other, especially in the spring when the chickens start having access to insects again, the farm egg is almost cartoonishly orange next to the store egg.
  
  I had a farmer I got eggs from for years and years. I was so lucky. 50 cents a dozen from 2003-2017. I eat a lot of eggs too. My family goes through two 30 packs a week.
  He told me about a month before he stopped. “I done got old, can’t do it anymore. I keep falling and if I break my hip they might as well take me out back and give me a mercy bullet.”
  I asked everyone under the sun. No one I found after that was consistent. I thought I found someone a few times, they disappeared after a few months. I gave up and started buying my eggs from the store.
  All things must pass. Damn though, that one hurt to lose.
  During my quest to find a new source for eggs though, I found someone with duck eggs. I figured, “Ahh, an egg is an egg, right?” Wrong. Duck eggs are not very tasty. They’re fine as an additive to a cake or something, but no way will I ever eat them again. Gah.
  
  What’s really weird is that eggs are remarkably similar even when raised on entirely different diets or conditions. While farm raised eggs and organic or free range eggs are slightly better, the difference is much more minimal than I think most people think.
  I went on a whole deep dive with that topic a while back and the result of that research was pretty much just that eggs themselves are pretty good for you but it matters a lot less which eggs you buy and more than you eat more of them.
  
  Wait, would that result in yellower chicken?
  Joke aside, healthier chicken?
  
  Huh, I'd swear most store eggs I get have yokes closer the the right one in colour
- There's a market down the street from me. They bring in Amish eggs every week and I always buy them there. The yolks are so bright and the eggs are delicious. Costs maybe 1.5x what regular eggs cost but they're so worth it
  
  Pretty cool that the price premium is only that! That's more or less what you pay for regular free-range eggs, isn't it?
- I got this from a classic boomer dad of a girlfriend, about chicken meat. He said free range chicken was “more gamy” and he preferred uh…. Chickens raised in tiny cages who can’t move around, apparently. Ok psycho.
  
  It's what they eat that affects the eggs themselves, and what type of chicken. Plus we treat our eggs which is why they are such a salmonella risk and have to be refrigerated.
  
  He should see what they do to calves to get veal. 😢
  
  The stress adds to the meat.
- Just because it came out of someone's back yard, doesn't mean it's high quality. So many chickens get table scraps and little else. Not everyone is suited to keeping pets, let alone livestock.
  
  -- But it generally does in developed countries as the majority of people going through the effort of keeping chickens in that environment are into keeping chickens. You might get some shitty setups, but the norm is decent quality feed and far less stress than large scale commercial setups.
  It's more of a hobby than a "get rich" scheme.
- Nothing like eating eggs that smell of fish because they chickens are fed lots of fish meal in their enclosures. Yuk.
- I have experienced this. The yolks are so dang orange. What's crazy, is we got a to of cicadas awhile ago and the chickens LOVE eating them. The eggs were way to rich for me.
- Ohh now I wanna try!

I told my American colleagues that in Denmark we get 3 consecutive weeks off during the summer, and the company is not allowed to contact us. We also get an additional 2 weeks off we can use whenever we want. Oh, and + 5 days (in hours). Again that we can use whenever.
Their jaws dropped.
- Or the fact that we actually pay people to study (~1000 USD a month), instead of putting them into crippling lifelong debt.
  
  If it's like the system in Sweden, it's actually ~$400 straight up benefit, and ~$800 in a very favourable (optional) loan with very low interest that is paid back over 25 years.
- Meanwhile my boss's boss was telling me last year that I had taken too much of our "unlimited" PTO after 2 weeks...
  
  I'd be tempted to reply I haven't even used 5% yet.
- Yeah I'm jealous
  
  I would be too
- And I literally can't leave the office for ten minutes to go buy lunch downstairs. Gotta bring my lunch and eat it at my desk while fielding internal and external questions.
- Also we get sick days during holidays

Not how comfortable their life is, how much you buy their industry's marketing spin about the option for a chicken to stand in a pool of chicken shit, hormones and antibiotics or to be forcibly laying in it for the entirety of its life.
- Your options are wretched vs horrific.
  
  Eh, there's also substandard:
  conventional - absolutely horrific - stuck in cage
  "cage free" - regular horrific - able to walk around, but they're packed wall-to-wall
  "free range" - substandard - can go outside and walk around, but still usually overcrowded
  The best option is to raise them yourself. But almost nobody does that, so I guess you pick how much you want to spend for the chicken to have a better life.
- Eh, good thing factory chicken is a thing of the past in The Netherlands, it's okay vs decent vs good.
  Rondeel is decent: https://youtu.be/zwleQLKU-UI?si=kh7T6b_bV0HMXjzO
  Label Rouge (France) is good: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aHlCEIAOpEk
  Yeah sure it's €4 to €5 per 10 eggs instead of €2.50 but there's a big difference in quality. You get watery whites, tasteless yolks and paper thin shells with the cheapest eggs. Same for chickens, the Label Rouge ones are really small at 1.5 kg in comparison to faster growing ones.
- hormones
  As fucked as the poultry industry is, that's not really a thing for a couple reasons. First is the FDA banned that practice, so in the USA at least you're not going to find any poultry products where hormones or steroids are used -- "hormone/steroid free!" is marketing BS stating they're not doing something illegal.
  Second: we've selectively bred chickens (broilers) that grow so freakishly fast and big you don't need to give them hormones or steroids -- their bodies naturally produce excessive amounts. These are chickens that need their food supply controlled because they will literally eat themselves to death if allowed to. They grow so large and quickly it's common they develop leg issues leaving them immobile, and most will "naturally" start to die of heart attacks if they aren't killed after 8 weeks.
- Maybe in the US. Here you get what you pay for. You CAN get good eggs from "happy" chicken. They just cost a lot more. Like 5-10x. Only thing missing is like the name of the chicken that shat out your egg 😁
  
  I suppose "here" isn't the EU then. 😬 https://food.ec.europa.eu/animals/animal-welfare/eu-animal-welfare-legislation/animal-welfare-farm/laying-hens_en
  
  https://youtu.be/G__PVLB8Nm4?si=VWlR6m_AF0HeJ61X

Where I'm from, there was a huge egg shortage for a while because ~5 years ago the government passed new laws to try and make things marginally less horrible for chickens. The entire industry decided that they were going to do... basically nothing, then the rules came into force and there was lots of winging from industry people that 5 years want enough time, and how hard it was not being able to sell all this product that they kept producing for some reason
- That wasn't honest incompetence. That was a failed, organized attempt to force a repeal.
  
  Smells like too big to fail fuckery
  
  Oh totally. There was an election and a change of government to one that is typically more business friendly, so I guess the hope was they'd roll back the rules but they were actually pretty popular with the public in general
- Sounds familiar, living in the Netherlands where farmers had years and subsidies to reduce reliance on livestock for the environment, then protested when the rules came into force and they hadn't used the time or subsidies to prepare.
  
  This is New Zealand, but yeah, basically the same deal
- there was lots of winging
  heh

I live in Shanghai and in all supermarkets in big cities above average neighborhood ones, you do have options for higher grade and organic eggs, fyi.
- You can say anything about China and Americans will believe it, like that one story about exploding helmets
  
  unless its good*
  
  Vice versa seems to also be true

At least here in the UK, unless you directly see where that egg was laid, assume it was horrific.
- I went to an egg farm in wales this summer and it was pretty nice. Lots of chickens but they go out to roam every day. Eggs were delicious and bright orange yolks.
  
  ah yes one of the display farms where faeries live and everyone is singing
- not to mention male chick culling
  
  Better than keeping them around under atrocious conditions because their meat has a low value. Like they did in Germany once killing the males was illegal: Just deport to Poland.
  Now all the people that got their law are crying again, because it is far more cruel now. I mean what did they expect?

Reminds me of one time I discussed egg ethics and the number system in europe with my fellow german student flatmate.
Our other flatmate was a syrien refugie and when he came in and we translated the subject he laughed - a whole lot. When he was able to speak after that epic laughter he just said "in syria its people in cages and you fight about chicken."
Reality had been checked
- Yeah, it's good that we think about solving these types of problems, but I think it's healthy to be reminded that it's a privilege to be in a position to spend mental energy on it.
  
  Totally. I think it also shows that empathy is to some degree a subject to choice, which in turn is connected to one's scope of action
- Plenty of people in cages in the US - I think we have the highest or one of the highest incarceration rates in the world? So that’s cool but not a situation unique to Syria or something.

Free range isnt that free
- You should try ‘free under capitalism’.
- Our chickens walked once.

I mean its nothing but a marketing spin all chickens suffer harshly in the egg industry. Even a true CCP devotee wouldn't be surprised and would probably expect meaningless marketing differences to get a leg up on competition.
- sure, but at least where i am, free-range chickens have a minimum of 1 sq. m. of space, which is 0.9 sq. m. more than otherwise
  
  Unless you're a male chicken, then your range is whatever the dimensions of the Live Rooster Masher is.
- Certified humane (pdf): https://certifiedhumane.org/wp-content/uploads/Standard_LayingHens-2023.pdf
  
  E 18: Sufficient freedom of movement.
  a. All hens must have sufficient freedom of movement to be able, without difficulty, to stand normally, turn around, and stretch their legs and wings.
  b. They must also have sufficient space to be able to perch or sit quietly without repeated disturbance to other birds.
  That's, without meaning to sound cute, paltry.

Did they tell you it is the same for cows in Japan?

It is pretty fuckin creepy that it’s become a standard in all grocery stores that ‘cheap torture’ is an option at all and it’s only because of capitalism flexing that it could the choice to not be evil and we should be grateful for it with more $$

"Does it involve an egg?" - Bortus, Moclan, The Orville.
We got the "500 cigarettes" meme out of it, but that whole series is so fucking memeable.
- We're never getting season 4, are we...
  
  https://www.space.com/season-four-the-orville-start-production-2025#:~:text=Scott%20Grimes%20confirms%20season%204,start%20production%20in%202025%20%7C%20Space

What, are they all battery farmed in the great People's Republic of China?
- I've spent a decent bit of time there on a few work trips. Never saw differentiation of eggs in supermarkets (or restaurants). Eggs be eggs.
  A huge number of folks are just coming into non-poverty since the turn of the century so it would seem entirely plausible to me that chicken comfort wouldn't be a thing there just like it wasn't in the west until comparatively recently and still isn't for a huge part of the population.
  Apart from that it's really very different culturally. They just view things through an entirely different (and interesting) lens.
  
  Eggs be eggs.
  I wouldn't be so sure about that. A Chinese buddy of mine sent me this a few years ago. Apparently counterfeit eggs are an actual problem in some parts of China. I cannot possibly fathom how this is cheaper than an actual egg, but apparently it's a thing and can make people sick if they eat them.
  https://youtu.be/bcgH6fgedoA
- https://www.lemonde.fr/en/environment/article/2022/10/31/26-stories-of-swine-world-s-largest-pig-farm-opens-in-china_6002372_114.html
  I don't know but one can make guesses based on this.
- I mean, it's still a largely rural country, I imagine in the majority of the country (geographically) people or their neighbors raise the chickens that lay the eggs they eat
  
  it's still a largely rural country
  No it's not.
  
  I mean, it’s still a largely rural country
  Not so. Wikipedia has a decent article but here's the crux of it:
  By the end of 2023, China had an urbanization rate of 66.2% and is expected to reach 75-80% by 2035
  The cities are massive and really densely populated. Shenzhen and Guangzhou are about 90 minutes apart by car if memory serves and account for about 35M people. Hong Kong is an hour south of Shenzhen by train and that's another ~8M.

As a Chinese, I know there are organic and non-organic type on the market. But I never thought of choosing eggs based on their life. Just mind boggling.

Kinda true when you think about it

They ought to force them to put photos of where the eggs came from on the packaging, like with cigarettes. Photos of the actual plant/range/etc. Might make people consider not picking the cheapest option.

I call them "free-will eggs". It sounds better in Spanish as opposed to "cage-free eggs".
- Huevos sin caja vs huevos sin libertad... What?
  
  "Huevos de libre albedrío" con respecto a "huevos libres de jaulas" o "huevos de libre pastoreo".
  
  "cage free" translates to "libre de jaula"
- Silly person, Free Willy doesn't lay eggs, they are a mammal

We buy free-range eggs but battery iPhones...

So.. keep in mind I stumbled on this.
Free-range eggs in grocery stores are painted/dyed.
Whatever the grocers are advertising regarding chicken conditions have been a lie... It's just there to make sure they keep selling it and for more. Unsure how to legitimately check which ones aren't simply marketing make-up
- When I worked for a guy who kept chickens in the back yard, the eggs came out in every shade from dark brown to white, and some had freckles. I don't know how they get them to be just two uniform colours (brown/white) in the grocery store, but I assume the white ones must be bleached. Some are naturally brown, others may be dyed.
  But I agree that we should be suspicious whenever marketing is involved.

Peter Singer is 'the godfather of animal rights' or whatever and he has a metric for ethical chicken farming, like a certain number of chickens raised per acre, free range.
It's way fewer chickens than currently raised but I think that's an interesting way to think about it...if we didn't have demand for eating chicken, many of these chickens wouldn't exist. Is that better than living a close-enough approximation of your wild life? Kind of a hard question.
- I've always fallen on the side of no, it's not better. If we compare actions taken toward them vs non-existence, almost anything could be justified.
  We (rightfully) wouldn't accept that logic for ourselves if a similar question came up.
  
  It's not that any life is better than nothing, it's that a good-enough life is better than nothing, and there has to be some level at which it can be said a chicken had a good-enough life.
  Obviously he doesn't think factory farm chicken lives are worth living, but he thinks there is a possible chicken life that is.
  We actually do make this calculation for humans. A lot of countries traditionally get abortions if a fetus has down syndrome, that is a decision saying that life is not worth living. The US doesn't do that as much but there are conversations around euthanasia, that's the same idea but for humans. There is a level of a good-enough life and we weigh life and death decisions around that.
  I think the real argument against this is just that the whole idea doesn't track and killing any animal for sustenance when you don't have to is just wrong at the core. THAT is where I disagree, but I can't math my way into changing your mind on it because I'm accounting for the quality of life for potential future beings, and you're just not. I don't think there's a "right" way to account for that inherently.
- If we did not raise chicken, we would have more wilderness supporting other animals.

I just go by price. And sometimes I just really want jumbo eggs.
- The more expensive eggs taste better and only cost a quarter more. Would you pay 50¢ to make your breakfast taste better? You should.
- Sometimes, while having breakfast, you relish in the fact that a chicken struggled to push something jumbo out of its anus.
  
  Chickens have a cloaca, silly.

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