Bernie was our compromise

Explain how Batman was not a wealthy crypto bro working though a mental crisis ?

lmaooo
tangentially I feel like Batman could never jive with leftist ideology anyhow. His whole thing is beating and scaring the crime out of people, which is in contrast to the leftist idea that crime happens because the needs of individuals (physical, psychological, and social) are not met by their material conditions.
- the leftist idea that crime happens because the needs of individuals (physical, psychological, and social) are not met by their material conditions.
  Like, why do people always jump to thinking there can only be one correct option out of multiple choices?
  I am sure there are many people committing crimes because they can't fulfill their basic needs any other way.
  But do you think Trump is lacking in material conditions? People are diverse and they commit crimes for diverse reasons.
  
  Nah, you're right, it definitely isn't as simple as all due to the material conditions, although I do tend to think the majority of crime is due to them. At the same time, I'm not sure I'm using material conditions in the correct technical sense, and was thinking about including a , "someone feel free to correct my usage" note in my comment. I also wasnt really itching for a super in-depth conversation about it, even though your question
  do you think Trump is lacking in material conditions?
  is a really interesting one that I'd need to think and talk about a lot. I think if we had appropriate non coercive controls against accumulation of property, while also living in a society that met the physical, psychological, and social needs of its people, Trump perhaps would not be a criminal.
  This comes from my tendency to think people are more inherently good than evil, and that much of the evil comes from the patriarchal culture of accumulation
  
  Because crime to account for material needs is the easiest route to lowering crime you just need to have a government that represents the people and not private interests, also consider that living in a corrupt unforgiving oligarchy isn't doing a god damn thing for mental health either.
  
  You do realize none of what you wrote answers my question nor contradicts anything I wrote, right?
  
  Lol responded to the wrong comment.
- Relevant HIGNFY
Good point ☝️
Also batman didn't change the systemic issues with Gotham.
- Also batman didn’t change the systemic issues with Gotham.
  This is exactly what I have been saying since the assassination. You cannot fix systemic problems with vigilantism.
  Did anyone's coverage go down? No. Did UHC just deny the claim of a woman in a coma? Yes.
  https://www.newsweek.com/united-healtchare-claim-deny-brian-thompson-luigi-mangione-insurance-2008307
  You cannot fix systemic problems with vigilantism.
  
  Well you can't fix it from within the system. You can't fix it with vigilantism, but it can be fixed as every other country in earth has fixed this problem.
  The fuck do you people want then?
  
  Fix it within the system using the threat of vigilantism as the or else.
  That’s how we got worker rights… threat of communism.
  
  There was time to fix it from within the system. That was before the fascist dictator was elected. There is no fix at this point. The good news is it will almost certainly come all crashing down due to incompetence and you only have a few years before global warming because a much bigger problem than healthcare anyway.
  What do I want? A socialist utopia. I'm just not under any illusions about it happening in America.
  
  No, there demonstrably wasn't. This happened under Biden.
  
  Sorry, do you think time began in 2020?
  
  You apparently do. Trump has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the state of healthcare, and won't. The ACA was a Republican think tank health plan, and is directly responsible for the state we're in. Healthcare reform hasn't been on the table in a serious manner in this country, from any party.
  
  Trump has everything to do with the fact that there is not going to be any chance to do any sort of progressive reforms in America again in the foreseeable future. Just like there are not going to be any elections again in the foreseeable future.
  You still think things are fixable in the U.S.
  You are in for a rude awakening.
  
  Batman repeatedly made attempts at systemic change using his wealth. It's kind of his arc - he starts young out of anger and rage with his only limit being he would not kill. As he ages, his various funds and programs he starts run into roadblocks from criminals seeking to exploit vulnerabilities in then to enrich themselves. But his biggest problem (in Gotham at least) is that there are many villains who simply want to fight progress because it makes them feel good. His money can do a lot of the work, but his particular skills allow him to apprehend some of the biggest challenges to his goals.
  But he's still human. He's still deeply flawed. That's sort of the whole point. He's not fixing everything alone, he can't. None of us can.
  
  Lets be real, Batman's method of vigilantism was to beat up the people being hurt the most by the system, the poor, the lonely, the mentally unhinged, he didn't really participate in going after the people responsible for sad state of affairs in Gotham.
  Also you cant fix this country with a fully captured government either, so is your point that we should just give up?
  Or will you accept that in this case, the plural of vigilante is revolutionaries.
  
  Ah yes, the great revolution that's been coming any day now my entire life that will set everything right.
  Weird how this revolution didn't happen before the fascist dictator got into power when it might have had a much greater chance of success.
  I don't really care what you do. Feel free to think America will be a socialist paradise with permanent Republican rule and if it isn't, the people who either voted for Trump or didn't give enough of a shit to vote at all will totally rise up and change things. Sounds probable.
- https://youtu.be/8l1PMVvfjDM

Luigi was a wealthy crypto bro working though a mental crisis. Luigi is not lefty batman.

That sounds a lot like Batman.

That's why I use Saint Luigi. It's a ignore all the things that don't line up with the ideal, and only focus on those that do kind of thing. Just like the churches do with thier saints. Lol
Lefty Batman is inherently contradictory too. Because a real leftist Batman would use his money to fix the systemic problems of Gotham, and are you still really Batman if you're not out beating the shit out of poor mentally ill people?
Or you could make the argument that Batman solves his problems with violence, in which case Luigi is fucking literally Lefty Batman for targeting a person far closer to the problem than Batman ever normally would.
- Because a real leftist Batman would use his money to fix the systemic problems of Gotham
  The last Batman movie makes explicit this contradiction in Batman. Batman acts in a vigilante manner to save individuals. Yet, the fund Bruce Wayne is custodian of is the source of the cancer at the core of Gotham.

If you’re waiting for perfect, you’ll be waiting for ever.

I mean if people are gonna have guns and people with mental crises who go and murder other people, then let's choose the lesser evil:
a) Sandy Hook style shooting up a school, killing many kids and teachers
b) New Orleans style driving a car into a public event, killing many partygoers
c) Luigi style murdering a single person who is arguably themselves guilty of causing the legal death and suffering of thousands
Now what would be the lesser evil in this scenario?
Obviously, I prefer no dead people, which would require regulating guns and providing mental healthcare and a social safety net to people, but alas, that option seems to be impossible.
unfortunately it is also a bad showing of the left because this guy ends up taking more action.
- "the point of theory is to change the world" -Marx. If the left does nothing then the left has failed us. Luigi isn't perfect, but he is a real person who was willing to sacrifice everything, to walk away from a life of comfort and privilege, just to take a stand against evil and to show the entire world that even a god king can bleed (300 reference)

I don't think he's a hero, but his actions are the inevitable outcome of our system.

When justice can no longer be achieved through peaceful demonstration or the legal system, people will increasingly turn to violence as their only option.

While I won't celebrate violence, I do prefer targeted violence upon those causing the damage to mass murders of innocents.

If you're going to murder someone - don't. But if that doesn't stop you, I'd rather the victim be someone who damages the world instead of schoolchildren and churchgoers.

The NOLA NYE terrorist attack on random party-goers is also an inevitable outcome of our system.
A lot of people on Lemmy believe that a wealthy elite controls the whole system. I think it’s far more likely that no one controls the system. Sure, some people are able to get rich off the system and carve out a little niche for themselves but the whole state apparatus is just a big tug of war that’s long since pulled everyone into the mud pit.
Political gridlock was long ago designed into the system as a way of preserving the compromise between ideologically disparate groups. Now we’re reaping what we sowed.
- A lot of people on Lemmy believe that a wealthy elite controls the whole system. I think it’s far more likely that no one controls the system. Sure, some people are able to get rich off the system and carve out a little niche for themselves but the whole state apparatus is just a big tug of war that’s long since pulled everyone into the mud pit.
  The closest I've seen to that is people explaining that the upper owning class has influence and control over many aspects of society, like politicians and mass media, but this does imply a conspiracy, that any one group has a cohesive agenda or control. It's more about acknowledging a mutual class interest among the owning class which trends towards certain outcomes despite that tug of war among them.

There will never be the perfect Robin Hood. Engels was wealthy, Bernie is a millionaire.

Really the point is that Luigi is (allegedly) right, and represents a justifiable sentiment of disdain for the system and class solidarity.

I agree. Do we really want to make Luigi a political leader then?
- I think this is less about actually making Luigi a political leader and more about reminding everyone that the actual political leaders the working class puts forward deserve consideration as a compromise by the powerful people in the system, because the working class could at any point decide to stop compromising.
  The System works by compromising, should the system through fuckery stop delivering acceptable compromise, the (by far) larger class has other ways to defend its interests.
- I voted for someone who wanted to continue a genocide in order to keep her popular vote count higher than Trump’s (I live somewhere where my vote does nothing). ¡Viva Luigi!
- Yeah, he's only (allegedly) killed one guy. That's not even close to rookie numbers for political leaders.
- Well if the OP does literally mean to imply that they want Luigi to run or something I do disagree there, but I'm pretty sure they're just making a point.
  
  It's hard to say. There are people out there who literally believe Luigi should be the President. I don't know how to tell the difference.
  Speaking of the devil https://midwest.social/comment/14439838

It's not glorifying Luigi. He's a vigilante. The health insurance companies are criminals in the eye of the majority, and the majority can't get it changed through legal peaceful means. The vigilante sees an injustice and takes it upon themselves to enact justice extrajudicially.

As we have seen, the majority appears to to support his actions. His background is unimportant. Humans are very grey. That's one of the things that democracy can account for.

Think of it this way: if he was willing to risk all that he had to enact justice once does that not make him better than many of us? How many of us have smaller amounts of excess, are directly impacted by the health insurance companies, yet have done nothing but take steps that have not helped anyone else? That's the definition of sacrifice rather than compromise.

Does the meme not imply that Luigi should be the next Presidential candidate? Is that not glorifying Luigi?
- No.
  The meme is pointing out that the non-violent solution didn't work. The "common cultural knowledge" that makes it humourus is that a wealthy guy with 37+ felony convictions and no interest in the common people. Luigi killed one dude that had it coming.
  It's not glorifying a thing. It's the common millennial Gallows Humor.
  
  Ah, my bad. This is what I get for posting while sick. Sorry.

Honestly, I feel about the same. Meme is funny, and I thoroughly enjoy the discussion, which is why I posted it, but I want actual leftist leaders in charge, not actual Luigi.

The point though is: Bernie was the working class trying to better the system from the inside. If the system keeps fucking us over, the system CAN be overthrown through different means.

The political class better realise that it's in their favour to have us change the system non violently.

I appreciate you trying to shift the narrative and demonize our modern day folk hero, but it’s probably not going to work.

Demonize? What have I said that was incorrect?
Just because he’s your “modern day folk hero” doesn’t make him or his actions immune to scrutiny. This way of thinking opens doors that people like you tend to stand firmly against.
No one should ever stand above our laws, our standards of morality, or our ethical codes of conduct without question. And propping someone up to such a height makes you every bit as bad as those you accuse of doing so.
Lol WTF.
They said it makes them uncomfortable, and explained why.
Don't bring this kind of conversation shutdown, bad faith misinterpreting, toxicity BS from reddit.

When has Batman been lefty?

His generally agreed upon biography is a wealthy billionaire trust fund baby who suffered great emotional loss and broke, who now spends the rest of his life and fortune fighting injustice

I didn't intend to imply that Batman was lefty.

It's a symbol. People are attracted to the idea that someone could coolly shoot an evil guy and (for a couple days) get away with it.

If he had hurt innocents or fumbled the execution (pun intended) he wouldn't be so popular.

Also consider how our institutions are failing us. People feel, often rightly so, that the systems aren't working for them. The supreme Court is openly corrupt and makes wildly unpopular decisions. Health care is a shit show. The police somewhat routinely kill innocent people and their dogs. Plus a bunch of stuff that's not true but people believe. It feels like there's no path forward, and then some smooth guy just shoots one of the perpetrators dead? Amazing.

I agree. The symbolism is good here. I just don't like making a symbol of just violence a leader.

Crypto bro working through a mental crisis... not lefty batman...

Batman was a rich bro with severe mental trauma. Any modern reboot would have no problem making Wayne a crypto bro.

That's the point though- people tried playing by the rules, the system shat in their faces. Now you have people snapping and going vigilante with guns and that's called consequence.

You break the socialist contract, bad things start getting lauded

Yeah, I get that this is an inevitable outcome. But now that we're talking about it, instead of putting every CEO's head on a spike, let's try to do something more constructive. You know like creates systemic change to close the wealth Gap.
- I'm still proposing that we take the richest person in the US every year, and confiscate 50% of their wealth and use it to fund healthcare, housing, education and food (all basic needs that the top 1% has stolen from us). Then we build a statue in their honor somewhere, labeling them as "This Year's greatest winner and Patriot".

He’s a symbol of an idea.

He was not wealthy if he couldn't afford the health care...

All I know is that his family is very wealthy. I hadn't heard that he couldn't afford healthcare. Do you have a source on that?
- Now I'm not completely sure the source is reliable, so I refrain from posting it.
- I thought the dead healthcare CEO was the source.
  
  You can kill an insurance CEO while being covered by said insurance.
  
  In the manifesto I read he had coverage. It didn't matter because the claims were denied.
  
  Do you have that link? When I search for the manifesto I get this one: https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/luigis-manifesto and it doesn't say anything about coverage or getting denied.

He’s part of the reason I hate phrases like “Kill all billionaires”.

Yes, most rich people are pretty evil, and I’d like them taken to task. But simply being born into fortunate circumstances doesn’t make someone evil; it’s the things they DO to keep that wealth that make them a greater or lesser evil. Ideally, everyone would have at least that basic quality of life that he did. Investing in crypto is one thing, but if he committed some atrocity using crypto I’ve yet to hear about it.

Mental health crises are very common now. They don’t necessarily make the act “not brave”.

I have the position that murder is the least ideal form of change, but as the post states all less violent options have been removed from the table at this time. It's sad that CEO (person) was killed, but it may have been an inevitable outcome.
- It’s sad that people with for-profit health insurance are forced to buy it and then killed when they can’t use it. Then I feel bad for CEOs who kill their clients some time later I imagine.

What's important is what you do.

Not what you claim to be, or what others say you are.

That's why identity politics are a failure. Classifying people between good or bad by a bunch of meaningless labels. The only classification that matters is what one is doing or not doing.

I'm not classifying Luigi as good or bad as a whole. I am just saying that making Luigi out to be some lefter version of Bernie is not a good comparison. I don't think we want kill CEOs to be the message of left leadership. The idea scares me, like the pendulum is swinging to far the other way.
- I don't think we want kill CEOs to be the message of left leadership.
  Spoken like an agent provocateur. A key aspect of decent humans (what you call left) is that there is no (moral) authority. That's a concept of asshole humans (a.k.a. "right").
  
  You could argue that Luigi killing the CEO from a utilitarian perspective is a net positive. Things are still playing out, so it is hard to say.
  What i feel strongly about is making Luigi a leader would be a net negative from a utilitarian standpoint.
  
  I wasn't arguing in favor of making him a leader, just objecting to the trolling about a "left leadership". The very concept of empathetic people (a.k.a. "left") is to not crave leadership and to encourage diversity in opinions, which also means that we typically never agree on many things. That's the main weakness of people with a conscience versus those who follow an authoritarian cult.
  
  You are correct. I messed up. I miss interpreted the post as suggesting Luigi become a leader. This is on me. Sorry.
  
  After having used reddit until the API changes, lemmy seems way too civilized ;) No biggie, have a good day!
  
  Spoken like an agent provocateur
  Spoken like an agent provocateur.

I think this kind of exemplifies our problem. We're more focused on keeping up partisan divides than we are on celebrating what brings us together. I'm guilty of it too, but it's not supposed to be Left vs. Right, it's a class struggle and we've let them create a situation where all we want to do is fight amongst ourselves.