Air Force Has Troops Remove Names, Unit Patches from Uniforms During Deportation Flights
The Air Force is the only one of the military branches involved in President Donald Trump's mandated border mission to not disclose publicly the number of service members or what units they're coming from.
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Hey gang, I'm very closely related to this field and wanted to share some insight into this!
This is VERY COMMON practice for these situations. The idea is not to cover up inhumane tactics, but protect our personnel. While I'm sure a majority of these individuals are simple illegal immigrants who have no ill intentions, there are criminal gangs being caught up in this. Not the entire gang is being picked up, just the illegal immigrants. So the policy of removing identification from the uniforms is to protect the military member and their family.
These commands come from the highest level, meaning each individual service member is not making the decision for themselves, but they are being commanded as a whole. Much as some might not like the connotations associated with this, it is a common practice and relevant due to the stated purpose of these missions.
This is VERY COMMON practice for these situations.
Maybe it shouldn't be. You know, what with accountability being a thing that people should be held to...
Should an airman’s family be targeted by cartels because they flew cartel members back to their home nation?
That's a good point.
Maybe we shouldn't have them do that in the first place either and if there are dangerous cartel members in the U.S., they can be put in U.S. prisons.
And after serving prison times what do we do? Most nations kick you out after you serve time in prison for serious crimes. How do you send them home?
Last I checked, planes not run by the Air Force flew to pretty much every country on the planet. Also, there are boats. And if we're talking the Americas, cars and trucks.
And if they have served their time, why do they need to be deported in a military plane?
Do we deport criminals housed in prisons for being dangerous people using commercial carriers?
They are being permanently exiled for their crimes why would ypu compromise that by letting them wander free?
I see. You think we should continue to treat former prisoners like prisoners even though they've served their sentence.
How very American of you.
If we are exiling someone for violent crimes why would they be free to roam the nation? You do not have the right to live anywhere other than the nation you have citizenship in. That isn't "American" of me as that is the law in all nations.
What are you even talking about now? You said they should be deported after serving their sentence. I'm saying if they've already served their sentence, why do they need to be treated like a dangerous criminal and deport them on an Air Force plane? Put them on a United flight to wherever. If they're such a risk on a plane, have a sky marshal sit next to them on the flight. They're allowed to be armed and they don't have to wear anything that identifies them. What is this cartel member going to do?
They transport prisoners still serving sentences domestically that way sometimes. They don't use the Air Force because it's one guy on a plane and that's silly.
Because if they are being exiled never to return to the USA you deport them through non-commercial means because they aren't free to interact with society. They do not have the right to wander the nation as non-citizens forbidden from being in the USA.
It is not the job of commercial flight crews to be involved in the legal deportation of violent criminals forbidden to access any part of the country. If the criminal decides to violate the agreement to leave the flight crew has zero recourse to stop them. The air marshal is a single guy on a plane. You are mistaken if you think the USAF is putting these deportees under the eye of a single guy.
Finally by placing them on government planes rather than commercial planes the government can be assured the criminal's nation can take them into custody when appropriate.
Is this a realistic possibility?
Why would a cartel kick that hornets nest?
Yes, and they have killed service members before.
That doesn't mean that reprisals are a realistic possibility.
People manage all sorts of risks every day.
It's not a question of whether some infinitesimal risk exists, it's a question of whether removing names is an appropriate mitigation.
Obviously you think that it is, but I think most people value transparency and accountability. The elephant in the room here is that anonymity would hypothetically allow service members to act with impunity.
I'm sure you can see the risks in having service members escort detainees with no accountability for their actions.
Not wearing nametapes has been a thing for decades, long before Trump was president.
Maybe it shouldn’t be. You know, what with accountability being a thing that people should be held to…
I think the main problem people are having is that they are being used to enforce domestic policy within the United States, which is not normal at all and is arguably illegal.
Ok so you obviously don't know what you're talking about. There are a lot of people in OPs image but only 4 are Air Force personnel, see if you can spot them.
That would probably be a lot easier if they didn't remove all of their patches. Huh...
Not really considering they're wearing multicams.
Oh right, I forgot that if you are in the Air Force, that is the only possible way you can dress at all times. Never does anyone in the Air Force ever wear anything other than that.
Why else would I be making so many comments?
Then you would know that not everyone on the plane would be wearing multicam.
It's a bit too blurry to be sure, but I'm pretty sure the guy standing to the right in the back next to the console with what looks like a patrol cap is more than likely the loadmaster and would be wearing a flight suit and over jacket.
Higher quality photo along with a gallery located here: https://www.dvidshub.net/image/8840870/department-defense-augments-us-customs-and-border-protection-removal-flight-efforts
There are a lot of people in OPs image but only 4 are Air Force personnel, see if you can spot them.
What does the percent of people in the picture being in the service have to do with anything......? We're talking about federal military members being ordered by the executive to enforce domestic policy, which is illegal.
Are you purposely being obtuse, or are you really this dumb?
And yes, I can spot the Air Force personnel..... I've spent 18 years living on AFB all over the country and abroad, my dad was a SMSgt.
We're talking about federal military members being ordered by the executive to enforce domestic policy, which is illegal.
The Air Force is not enforcing domestic policy here. If you see Airman out on the streets arresting people then you'd have a point. That's why I mentioned the 6 agents. The USAF is providing logistical support (yes they bring their own security too, the 4 in multicams).
If you disagree please look it up yourself.
The Air Force is not enforcing domestic policy here. If you see Airman out on the streets arresting people then you'd have a point.
I don't think you have any kind of authority to really substantiate that particular semantic dispute.
I'm sure we'll probably see it brought before a court at some point, but I would argue that if the policy isn't possible to execute without the logistical support of the military then the military is crucial to the enforcement of the policy.
The armed forces can’t execute law domestically. The question driving the discussion here is what exactly constitutes “executing law.” According to DoD policy, the armed forces are prohibited from performing the following law enforcement activities:
- interdiction of a vehicle, vessel, aircraft, or other similar activity
- a search or seizure;
- an arrest; apprehension; stop and frisk; engaging in interviews, interrogations, canvassing, or questioning of potential witnesses or suspects; or similar activity;
- using force or physical violence, brandishing a weapon, discharging or using a weapon, or threatening to discharge or use a weapon except in self-defense, in defense of other DoD persons in the vicinity, or in defense of non-DoD persons, including civilian law enforcement personnel, in the vicinity when directly related to an assigned activity or mission;
- evidence collection; security functions; crowd and traffic control; and operating, manning, or staffing checkpoints;
- surveillance or pursuit of individuals, vehicles, items, transactions, or physical locations, or acting as undercover agents, informants, investigators, or interrogators; and
- forensic investigations or other testing of evidence obtained from a suspect for use in a civilian law enforcement investigation
According to DoD policy, the armed forces are prohibited from performing the following law enforcement activities:
This article is limited to national guard personnel, active duty troops have even more limitations to domestic operations. Which is why national guard units were utilized to "secure the border", and not actual active duty service members.
Applies to National Guard (NG) personnel in Reference (d) status only. e. Applies to civilian employees of the DoD Components and the activities of DoD contractors performed in support of the DoD Components.
Thank you for sharing your perspective and informing us that cowardly evasion of accountability in the execution of inhumane operations is a common practice in the service. Some folks out there might not have suspected this already.
This is VERY COMMON practice for these situations.
No, no it's not. Maybe when operating in dangerous missions while deployed overseas.... While working on American soil? No.
None of the other branches being ordered to do similarly sketchy quasi unconstitutional work have removed their identifiers, none of the other branches have opted to classify the work they are doing.
The Air Force has a pretty well known history of racism, rape, and Christian nationalist in their command structure. Out of all the branches it doesn't surprise me at all that the Air Force is the branch falling over itself to follow trump's orders.
No, no it’s not.
Yes it is, those are Fly Away Security Teams (FAST) or Ravens. Go look it up, 95% of the official Air Force photos of FAST/Raven show people without nametapes, example taken from here.
Furthermore:
And how often are they operating on American soil.......?
24/7
The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) signed on June 18, 1878, by President Rutherford B. Hayes that limits the powers of the federal government in the use of federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies within the United States.
Possie Comitatus has nothing to do with aircraft security.
Who said anything about aircraft security.....?
They are being ordered to enforce domestic policy on us soil, which is exactly what the law is made to prevent.
Who said anything about aircraft security
Me, I did. That's what Fly Away Security Teams do, that's what the USAF uses to secure it's aircraft, domestically and abroad.
Lol, do you think the plane is flying itself? The security of the plane isn't a problem, the problem is the mission of the plane in the first place.
You're moving the goal posts. The Air Force isn't enforcing domestic policy. They're operating an aircraft to provide logistics for other federal agencies.
The other agencies are enforcing domestic policy, not the Air Force. The people are not in the custody of the Air Force and they were not captured by the Air Force. ICE is simply using the Air Force equipment as transport and Air Force personnel operate and secure that equipment.
Out of all the branches it doesn't surprise me at all that the Air Force is the branch falling over itself to follow trump's orders.
I'm not sure how you can imply that you're familiar with how the military operates and then say something as ignorant as this.
All branches of the military "fall over themselves" to follow the orders of the President. That's literally how the chain of command works.
Be upset at Trump for assigning shit missions, but it's incredibly ignorant to attack any specific branch of the military for following lawful orders.
What do you picture the alternative to be? That some Airman should get himself court marshalled for refusing the order to remove his name and unit patch?
Could you explain how transporting people to their country of origin is an illegal order?
Or, maybe explain how you would handle the order as an enlisted soldier?
That’s literally how the chain of command works.
No, it isn't. Supremacy lays with the constitution. Befehl ist Befehl isn't a valid defense.
Yes, it is.
Supremacy lays with the Constitution.
The Constitution:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;
Befehl ist Befehl isn’t a valid defense.
There doesn't need to be a valid defense because no crimes are alleged.
The Air Force is operating a flight, chartered by ICE, to transport foreign nationals to their country of origin. The people are in ICE custody, ICE is the law enforcement body who is transporting them for deportation.
The Air Force is no more enforcing domestic law than Delta is when ICE uses them to transport deportees.
I think Trump's deportation program is massively destructive and likely violates the law in many places. But that doesn't mean that literally every aspect of it is a crime and everyone involved is acting illegally.
The Air Force isn't acting illegally by transporting ICE, which is the point of contention here. I mean, do you think that AFJAG is unaware that this is happening?
Don't confuse getting upvotes from outrage junkies with having rational opinions.
Be upset at Trump for assigning shit missions, but it's incredibly ignorant to attack any specific branch of the military for following lawful orders.
They are going above and beyond the assignment of the mission. As I said, the other branches have received similar orders but have made what they are doing public, and have not decided to operate anonymously.
That some Airman should get himself court marshalled for refusing the order to remove his name and unit patch?
Did I criticize the airman? No, I specifically criticized their command.
Could you explain how transporting people to their country of origin is an illegal order?
The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) signed on June 18, 1878, by President Rutherford B. Hayes that limits the powers of the federal government in the use of federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies within the United States.
They're just rounding up the dangerous Jews, I mean illegal immigrants. Everybody relax.
What is brownshirt?
Courtmarshall is probably not what you want in this. That's specific to the UCMJ, which would discipline them for NOT removing identifiers. You probably want them to go through civilian courts if that's your goal. Which probably means you're thankful for Trump's push for increased executions.
What is brownshirt?
Wow, shocker.
What is a brownshirt?
The SA/brownshirts were the "thugs" of Hitler's Nazi military. The brutes you see in movies busting into homes and shoving people around. Known for being excessively violent and breaking rules/laws in their harassment/detainment/murdering of Jews. They also claimed to be "just following orders"
What is brownshirt?
People like you are why we're repeating history
Brown shirts are essentially what ICE and the USAF is right now. Hitler's thugs that will hurt whoever he wants because they want to hurt people and they get a free pass to hurt "the right" people. They also his their identity "to protect the troops" from people who would do the right thing and confront serial murderers and abusers.
So congrats on ICE and the arguably most far reaching branch of the US military being drumpler's boot-deepthroating lackey henchmen.
In Germany there was a word for people "that were good people just following orders". Nazis & war criminals
You probably want them to go through civilian courts if that’s your goal.
I want them all tried at the Hague.
The idea is not to cover up inhumane tactics, but protect our personnel
No, its just to cover up crimes against humanity. Let's be real here, and yes, I was also an aircraft crewmember.
The best way to protect them is to not put them there in the first place, for a law enforcement operation.
They always have another option: walk away.
That is literally not an option for a very large majority of these service members. That'll be an Article 15 for sure, maybe a courtmartial.
Yes, the people made to assist the Nazis in the 1930s/40s had to make some tough decisions too.
Taking an Article 15 or court-martial instead of participating in massive civil rights violations not only absolutely is an option, but it's the only ethical one!
They executed Nazis who were "just following orders."
Rightfully so.
No, they executed Nazis for operating death camps.
They did not execute for "just following orders", aka Nuremberg Defense.
As it turns out, soldiers in all militaries follow orders every day without being executed.
Unless you're going to explain how removing a unit patch and name tag, or transporting people to their country of origin is worthy of execution, I'm not sure that you have an argument.
Resigning ones commission is exactly the type of meaningful protest that is needed. Nazis soldiers got pay and retirement benefits as well but tough things are tough to do. It sorta cracks me up because you say literally not an option and then present the very literal options they have.
That’ll be an Article 15 for sure, maybe a courtmartial.
Unlikely. The military doesn't chase down people who are AWOL much anymore. I know two people who have been AWOL for 20 years now. And they aren't hiding much at all.
Seriously, what is a brownshirt?
The paramilitary arm of the Nazis, also known as SA, doing all the protection of events and members, harassment and killings of persecuted minorities and concurrent parties while it was not in power yet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung
But the situation is different now because you're part of the official organization with the official power :/
That explains it, thank you!
Wouldn't it not be so different, since I'm not part of the official organization? Just tangential?
Yeah, you're actually closer to that initial situation, so the comparison is even more apt
It boggles my mind you are military adjacent and do not know this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung
I'm not very good with history. I know the broad strokes, but I've forgotten a lot of this kind of history. It hasn't been relevant in my line of work, so doesn't get easily remembered.
That link does explain the reference, though, thank you!
It's time to brush up, because clearly you're falling for the same shit
It could not possibly be more relevant in your line of work than it is right now.
Do you know what their line of work is, or are you saying it applies to everyone?
I'd say it is important to everyone, especially if you are American.
See the top comment.
Don't see thr connecrion to the top comment.
Why would you post this comment multiple times instead of googling it? 🦭🦭🦭
We're just trying to hide our identity while committing crimes acting on orders from the Criminal in Chief because all of our white robes and hoods turned pink due to a MAGA cap that somehow ended up in the wash.
Got it.
Fly Away Security Teams/Ravens haven't been wearing nametapes for decades, this is nothing new.
Being in America without paperwork isn't a criminal charge, it is civil, so they aren't even here illegally, by the definition of the law. They are undocumented immigrants, not illegal.
The Nazis are trying to change the narrative to make it sound like there's an evil scary cabal of people trying to destroy out country, to move the arrow away from pointing at the Nazis in power.
like there's an evil scary cabal of people trying to destroy out country
Have I got some bad news for you.
Missed the end of the sentence, did you?
You seem to have missed the whole thing.
Gross.
to clarify you are saying this is is so a random airman’s kids aren’t targeted by the cartels because they flew some cartel members back?
That's the general idea, yes.
That makes sense
I get what you're saying, if this was a hollywood "Carry-on" kinda movies. But, something doesn't pass the smell test.
Why would a gang target a service member performing a deportation flight to another country? What benefit could they receive from being exposed going after a private who's just guard duty on a plane? If it's just a, "there's no benefit, they're just evil and target people for fun" I would need some actual evidence of something like this being done and the procedures put into place after to just trust any ol' internet stranger proclaiming subject knowledge.
The practice originates from prisoner movement during our global war on terror. It was due to concern over domestic operatives targeting armed forces members, which is not new. The linked story is an example of this being used to instill fear.
While I don't think this equates at all for simple deportation flights, this seems to be the underlying justification for the above tactic, be it to prevent retaliation or "making an example" to scare away further attempts at deportation.
Again, I didn't think this concern is nearly as founded as it was during global war on terrorism, but this is what I think is the justification.
Oh, I was hoping more for an article or a statement made by a person of authority that was saying "The procedure was done according to this report by our intelligence officials and thus we conduct ourselves this way" kinda link. I mean what you're saying sounds plausible but that link from 2015 even says it was just social media kinda data if anything was actually real to begin with (nobody would confirm the validity, etc). I could see them using the scare tactics, just would like to see someone actually stating what the situation is.
Yeah, I was trying to find something like that to back up my point. Article, AFI, SecDec report, Pentagon statement, etc, but couldn't find anything. There's someone else in the thread who posted some pictures of these teams without nametapes, but that's not much stronger evidence than my word.
Every individual has the power to make a decision even if that decision would exit them from the situation. Maybe more people should stand up to authoritarians
I'm far more concerned with the safety of people trying to survive than the bullies holding guns
This is what they say about riot police in oppressive regimes, about prison personnel, about people from special agencies doing surveillance and even arrests.
I think you can see where I'm going. Removing identification is more harmful than the threat to "the military member and their family".
What’s your favorite film? Starship Troopers? Go back to redditstormfront.
I get what you mean but Starship Troopers is a critique of war and militarized states.
My sibling in Kristallnacht, a militarized/police state is exactly what this is. This is war turned inward. This is what fascism looks like. This is fascism.
They’re starting with (mostly non-European) immigrants and trans people, and so on.
The Independent: Trump State Department official has repeatedly called for mass sterilization of ‘low-IQ trash’
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a CommunistThen they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a SocialistThen they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionistThen they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a JewThen they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
We might be talking about different things. I’m just saying that Starship Troopers is an anti-war film and most of the people who like it are fairly liberal.
Yes. My point was that the type of people who think it’s reasonable for troops to hide their identities are the same people for whom Verhoeven’s satirical fascism goes over their heads.
Ah. Now I understand. I think those people prefer more naked propaganda like “American Sniper” though.
Doesn't seem like it, but OK. It's not a big deal.
Hell or High Water. Fantastic utilization of visuals combined with smooth and enjoyable music. Love the whole trilogy, but this is my favorite of them.
How do you speak with the whole boot on your tongue?
