these folks sure are quiet these days
these folks sure are quiet these days
i can't even guess as to why they went quiet. not one guess at all. we will never know.
edit: well they're not quiet now once they get called out
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There sure are a lot of people trying to blame the left because their strategy of appealing to the middle failed.
Well yeah, otherwise they’d have to consider actually changing their shit strategy
Even after all this the DNC are already bowing down to the fascist position because they lost because they were “too woke”.
This is when the democrats were already running a far right platform of “we want to fund the police, not defund them”, following Trump’s border policy, “most lethal army”, “Israel must expand its borders”, “I’ll have a Republican in my cabinet”. And they weren’t “woke” at all. Kamala threw trans people in the trash saying “we’ll follow the law” when it comes to trans issues. It was the Republicans who were running hundreds of millions of dollars worth of attack ads on trans people and democrats weren’t saying shit.
The DNC have once again failed to learn and are looking for a “centrist” chair, doing exactly the same thing of shutting down leftist voices and trying to appeal to and compromise with the fascists instead of listening to people like Bernie and AOC.
You’d think after they utterly failed and managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and get an out and proud fascist elected they would finally learn that they need to address the real issues that affect all working class people.
The ratchet effect is real.
The Republican critique of the democrats is kind of right in a way in that they are just the same rich people not doing anything about the cost of living and only using identity politics to “virtue signal”. They’re right wingers with rainbow flags. That doesn’t do much for oppressed minorities except make us the target of attacks. What would benefit queer and other oppressed minorities more is build a society in which we can afford homes to live in, food to eat, access to healthcare. But they want to make it all about pronouns because that is easy for them to look like they’re someone “on the left”, when economically they’re not on the left at all.
There’s really no hope with the DNC. We just need to organize in our own communities because the democrats certainly aren’t coming to save anyone.
they need to address the real issues that affect all working class people.
But of course this would mean clawing back some concessions from the capitalist class, and they own both parties, so....nope.
The so called rachet effect is because the left never shows up, so the Dems go to the center to find voters. The left doesn't like this so they cry rachet.
Is there data about the 2024 election showing this available already? Because the 2020 data doesn’t support that.
Voted but voted for who? Jill Stein? I'm obviously saying they didn't show up for Dems.
And the difference I see between right and left are about the same. Like those 4 points for left and right are really pretty much the same percentage. And that's percentage, so it's what I've said before that either 1) the left doesn't exist (or is tiny), or 2) they don't show up. Either way.
And finally I think Biden won because he went to the center and got those voters. The stressed sideliners in that graphic.
It wasn’t obvious, plenty of people simply say that the left doesn’t vote despite the fact they’re some of the most engaged voters out there.
You would think that courting the most dedicated voting demographic on your side of the aisle would be a positive if they weren’t already mostly voting for you anyway, but I’m not the kind of brilliant political machine that can lose elections to Trump twice. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah it was obvious I'm saying the left doesn't show up for the dems when it's a 2 party system.
You would think that courting the most dedicated voting demographic
They're either tiny or they don't show up for the Dems. Every time the dems (jfc do I have to add that every time?) rely on the left, they lose.
lose elections to Trump twice.
Hillary said she'd have a map room to fight climate change. You know that existential issue that the left totally says it will show up for for the dems, right? And they didn't show up for the Dems.
Biden saw that and ran center. And he won. But Biden did left things anyway. And what did polls show? That the left wasn't going to show up for the Dems.
Harris relied on the left to show up for the Dems and they couldn't even do that for the dems when their own human rights and democracy was on the ticket.
The only time the Dems win is when they go to the center. After this, thy will never ever rely on the left again, because they never show up for the Dems.
I hope you see why people don't add for the Dems every single time. Because it's a pain in the ass and a mess.
Damn, it's crazy how the demographic that they don't rely on because they're so tiny who totally doesn't show up to vote for them anyway is the reason they lost. Maybe if they go even further right next election it will work!
Well if I understand your run on sentence correctly, I already said it: the left either 1) doesn't exist (in meaningful size), or 2) will never show up for the Dems. Take your pick, doesn't really matter. The Dems will never, ever, never again rely on the left showing up for the Dems.
And they will go to the center. That's the only time they ever win. That's how Clinton won. That's how Obama won. That's how Biden won. Every time they rely on the left for the Dems they lose. That's how Gore lost. That's how Hilary lost. That's how Kamala lost.
Ignore, misread parent
Idk. I’m sure the cheneys endorsement brought out dozens of voters.
Couldn't have said it better. This post is pure cringe but the op is a perfect example of why Democrats lost.
Naaah. What’s cringe are the smug pseudo-intellectual “trolley problem” gEnOciDe accusers that didn’t do shit but sit on their thumbs while the rest of us tried to save democracy.
Now they all get to blame the people that acted while smugly admitting that they chose not to?
An estimated 90 million people chose not to vote. Of those 90 million were third party supporting clowns that chose not to vote because they knew their candidate didn’t stand a chance. Also among those 90 million were protest-voting clowns that chose not to vote because their last two remaining brain cells were too busy fighting over third place.
There is ZERO logic or intelligence in accusing the people that actually tried and did something to avoid a shitty outcome while arrogantly having not done jack shit about it.
You aren't saving democracy dude lmao
I don't think you can save something you didn't have to begin with tbh
I thought the people analyzing the election as a single-iteration trolley problem were primarily Harris supporters? [Pull lever] = Harris, [don't pull] = Trump, right?
This is you. Your 'But Trump' strategy got you Trump twice now.
So you tried saving democracy by supporting genocide and in the end you lost?
So you tried saving democracy by… doing nothing and in the end, everyone lost. And I don’t recall ever supporting genocide, mentioning anything even remotely supportive of genocide, or even so much as hinting at that possibility of being an okay thing to do for any reason.
Voting for someone committing genocide and advocating for someone committing genocide IS supporting genocide.
There sure are a lot of people that didn’t do jack shit and think they have a place to blame anyone.
Canadian, voted for left wing party that had the best chance of winning despite the leader being a gilded spoon brat who couldn't lead his way out of a wet paper bag.
I did my fucking part. All you wannabe progressives in the US had to do was vote to keep the Nazi out of office and you couldn't even do that.
American. Voted for Harris. I think you responded to the wrong person.
That was in general to the people who "held back their vote" to "teach the Democrats a lesson". The kind of people who don't realize that the luxuries the west has were hard fought and think they will always be there.
Ahh. Gotcha. Well said, friend from the not too distant north!
Then you weren't continuing the conversation and was grandstanding to the choir to feel better.
They were continuing the conversational thread about the people who didn't do shit
Most of us in here voted. And it didn't change the millions that didn't.
They are preaching and yelling at the choir. It didn't continue the conversation even the person responding to was confused.
And what has the liberal party done with your vote? Next year is going to be a fucking disaster. The strategy of voting for the least bad option doesn't work when the least bad option keeps getting worse. You can bleat at people to vote for the one party over and over again, but eventually enough people just give up or get desperate for any chance at change and think that voting for the other party will at least shake things up.
I voted for the NDP.
Federally the Liberals are the centrists led by the gilded spoon spoiled brat who couldn't lead his way out of a wet paper bag. But he is fantastic at speeches.
The same NDP that doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell at getting power nationally? Again, next year is going to be a disaster.
I wasn't super fond of the democrat's platform either man, but I definitely wanted Not Fascism and Some Semblance of Human Rights to win.
Now we have nothing, and I have to make plans to figure out how to get my girlfriend out of the country if she ever needs reproductive care. Great job!
Well hopefully blaming progressives instead of the people who actually voted for trump makes you feel better at least?
A party that insists we have to support genocide is already fascist and has no regard for human rights except to use as bargaining chips to get votes. Sorry.
There is more than one topic to consider. If they both are truly the same in your mind on that topic maybe look at other factors that heavily impact people? Voting for a 3rd party who has no chance of winning literally does nothing.
Yeah so Republicans. Great job.
'But Trump' got you Trump twice now, and you're blaming the people that tried to save you from yourself.
Children try to help with tasks they are incapable of doing as well, that does not mean we should alter our actions to cater to them.
How has this worked out so far?
You got Trump elected twice.
Good job, if that was the intent.
Your child analogy is sophistry trying to pin responsibility for the DNC's failures on others to preserve the paycheck of checks notebook oh yeah, the campaign manager of John Edwards failed primary campaign who then went to work for Clinton in 2016 and Harris in 2024.
You're carrying the water for people who continue to fail up and then fail using the same strategy that failed them before.
Good job.
But... I'm guessing you're not aware of the whole DNC consultant class that continues to drive failing campaigns that fail to get votes but succeed in getting billionaires contributions that get given to the consultant class so they can buy their next yacht. None of this is hidden either, it is public.
Which makes the irony of an ignorant person like you repeating the lines that fail to win votes but maintains the jobs of the people failing calling other people children.
EDIT: You're like a musk fanboi with a paid for blue checkmark. Difference is that the musk fanboi at least knows they're a fanboi.
You seem to have extrapolated quite a lot from such a brief comment. Is it possible you may have misstepped in some of your assumptions here?
Did you call the people pointing out the DNC was headed for disaster children, or were you calling the people who failed at their job children?
The children are the people vehemently demanding the DNC unilaterally employ their chosen platform, under the pretense that it would instantly solve their problems, and then subsequently abstaining out of protest. The political landscape is more complicated than that.
I've said elsewhere, elections are won on popularity, not policy. If the DNC unilaterally shifts to a pro-worker platform, all their wealthy donors shift to attack ads against them. Adopting more popular policies can ironically lose them votes as those policies get misrepresented to voters by propagandists.
Add to that the habit of progressives to abstain when a platform isn't perfectly catered to them, and you have an impossible situation where you're trying to court multiple conflicting demographics while the financial support you once had has been turned against you.
the children in this case being the people who don't support genocides? got it. and you wonder why harris lost the 'popularity' contest. jesus christ.
We play the hand we're dealt. Accelerated genocide + fascism is a worse outcome than performative resistance to genocide.
You were not dealt this hand, you chose it by not telling them 'no'. it is the most powerful word you have in your arsenal learn to use it. there is a reason utilitarianism is panned basically universally in ethics classes. Had you been willing to exercise it against the DNC you might not be in the very situation you find yourself in now.
News flash, neoliberals are already fascist, they are just better at hiding it. They even endorsed Dick fucking Cheney.
Egocentrism is a defining American quality.
?
Your point?
Nothing could be more egocentric than believing every opinion different from your own can just be reduced to egocentrism. Maybe it's time for a healthy dose of self awareness...
“All Opinions Are Equal”
Consider the proposition that all people’s opinions hold equal value. No one’s opinion is better or more valid than anyone else’s.
Hope this helps.
I'm not convinced the left was ever going to show up for any candidate. They're already castigating Bernie, of all people. They've already purged AOC.
From what I learned it seems there is absolutely no limit to the amount of purity testing that seems to happen on the left. In the meantime, Republicans are marching us lockstep into direct fascism. So we can't get anything done because none of the dnc candidates are perfect. Meanwhile, Republicans literally have no standards.
Um. Leftists vote at the highest rate of any polity.
There's just not many of us.
The DNCs "standards" weren't impressive to millions of center / center-left voters who voted for Biden.
Probably because they nakedly shilled themselves to anyone with a checkbook. Had no stances, offered no solutions, and came across as wildly out of touch.
Imagine how a tax credit for first time home buyers sounds to someone who can't afford groceries.
You're kind of proving my point. We're now left with the alternative. Again: because we couldn't be bothered to show up to vote. That home buyer tax credit was one of many policies. Like the child tax credit was a really big deal. But again, here we are tearing her platform apart while the repubs are marching lockstep.
Trump gets to coast on the guarantee that his base will show up no matter any-thing. He is most vile person that ever held office (maybe Jackson is up there with him). But the DNC candidate has to thread carefully and reach near perfection or else face endless barrage of criticism from within.
The two parties seem to have vastly different standards and that's why we can never move further left. The right wins on every turn regardless while the left is sticking their nose up because the DNC candidate is just never left enough.
Yes when you cultivate a brainwashed mob of barely literate hateful fools you can manipulate them pretty easily.
Frankly I've abandoned democracy. We aren't responsible enough to keep it and it's grown too onerous to manage. It's a garden that has overgrown our house. I doubt what's coming will be better but hatching is rarely a good thing from the viewpoint of the eggshell.
Right. But unfortunately that's our reality. We have to build up. If we ever want to move that Overton window... well now it jumped ten steps to the right. It doesn't go back and forth between each cabinet. It just keeps sliding into the right because again: the right has no standards and is happy to march in lockstep while we quibble over which progressive policy just isn't good enough.
I fear we deserve to watch the nation burn because like you said, democracy requires vigilance
I say she relied on the left coming out for abortion rights and democracy. They couldn't even come out for that.
Abortion rights initiatives won in 7 out of 10 states where they were on the ballot.
And got 57% in FL, but needed 60% to pass
Fuck national rights amiright.
If the left would rather have Trump than a centrist Harris government, the left deserves blame
It's not the left but everyone else that didn't vote for her either.
The left is just an easy target cause we pointed out her flaws and people think by doing that we somehow made her flaws real.
Clearly a huge amount of people had issues with her or she would have won more votes. It's like Trump thinking if we stopped testing for COVID it would stop happening.
If the leftists shut up Harris just would have lost in silence.
I don't buy that. Trump got the undying loyalty support of all right wing media while Harris's every word and move was scrutinized endlessly on left media. Even Joe Rogan - - supposed enlightened centrist - - did not dare criticize the god emperor Trump. It's just not the same when it comes to the standards. We are so far from even beginning to have a conversation about progressive policies because we can't even get our most basic candidates elected.
The right marches us in lockstep towards the bottom while we stick our noses up to our imperfect candidates. I just don't buy it.
You are so backwards from reality that I don't think it's worth any of my time to point out all the wrong things you just said there as I doubt you will hear it at this point.
And the idea that we need to elect a centrist so that they can enact progressive policy they don't want to do is up there.
Maybe just start with the thought that no one owes voting for an "imperfect" candidate if they just don't want them in office.
Perfection is what you think people need when a real look at reality and hope to fix its issues is more than enough.
I didn’t say we need to elect a centrist to enact progressive policy (and by the way, you may call Kamala a centrist but she also had some very progressive policies). Biden has also enacted many progressive policies, so to just hand wave it away is laughable. The issue is your understanding of how politics works. If Bernie was president it’s not like he could magic wand all your dreams into existence. This is something you guys either don’t understand or just willingly ignore so you can stick your nose up at whatever candidate the DNC puts up. It doesn’t matter because after Trump’s cabinet is done we will be set back another hundred years. He will have the house, the judicial and everything else and we can sit here real smug about how ‘centrist’ Kamala was.
Perfectly said man. Thank you for this. Even if they don’t agree, there may be a few who will see the sense in it and come around to understand that nuance touches everything.
Come around to what? People vote on emotion. And aren't on Lemmy.
If there is a next election and people are feeling bad about the Republicans they might be looking for a different answer but it won't be nuance.
Hoping for the general dumb populace to understand that a do nothing centrist is their best option to someone that agrees with them about items they passionately feel about is not going to happen. They will need to feel the other candidate supports them more properly than what they are getting which is why Trump won.
No nuance is gonna fix that and it's cool to believe and hope that people will just come around to "better" conclusions.
What people will need to see and will often come around to us change. Hopefully more of us recognize that will happen anyways and help grab the reigns from the awful people who would hold them to oppress and use them to lead. But none of us in this comment chain right here will have the reach you are hoping for to ease your mind.
The words mean nothing without action and support.
You did. You said we need to elect whoever the Democrats give us to get progressive policies but whoever they give us will likely not support them. It's putting the cart before the horse.
And she didn't really. Look into her policies and they lacked any actual support for the larger population percentage. She was a centrist. It's not pretend because you want to pretend she's not.
Her house buying support was only for for first generation homebuyers, mostly immigrants who had lived in corporate owned apartments to track rent payments for 2 years and no one else. Business loans were for specific races in specific cities with specific history again. Trans support for prisoners but not health care for regular citizens. So on. She picked hyper specifics and that's not helping people. That's helping specific groups in ways they think keeps status quo but gets more votes.
When everyone feels like they are hurting telling them to hold on while you apply hyper specific help doesn't feel very progressive or helpful.
It's not picking apart by the way. It's not like she didn't say these things out loud and mean it. And other people who pay less attention aren't going to be excited to hear about plans that don't help them.
The issue is that you don't know that people vote on emotion and think people can be told what's best for them while they feel differently. It's not that Bernie or any progressive would fix everything immediately but Trump won because he admitted there is a problem and agreed with people feeling hurt by the system.
He's not gonna fix it, but he didn't make people feel dumb and ignored. It's not about you or me but the millions that it was true for. So acting smug about how centrist she wasn't doesn't help us either and won't change her loss.
It gets you and the rest of us nowhere and is a great way to lose again by doing nothing but battling with hypothetical pedantry against reality.
Again join reality and maybe you might get somewhere but currently there is no way forward when this hellbent imagining it how you want. Everyone else will move on without the DNC if they have to. Change will and must happen. Sticking your nose up at it because you'd prefer it didn't will keep you being ineffective at moving with it.
Here's reality: The republican party put forward a candidate that literally quoted Mein Kampf and was also found liable for sexual abuse in court by a jury. The entire republican media apparatus and electoral base not only stood behind him but rabidly endorsed him lockstep from beginning to end. The DNC put forward a candidate that wasn't very left (I'll be first to agree with you that her platform tried to cater to the center). I'll also grant that she wasn't as charming or funny as Trump and she came across as center technocrat. I'll grant you all of that.
My issue is we'll never make progress because democrats (and when I say democrats I mean beyond the electoral base to include the entire media environment) will shred and nitpick any candidate regardless of where their policies stand. It's not the policies, because even your post is a testament that you don't understand how policies translate into legislation. Bernie could have come out with universal healthcare, and I promise you the democratic media apparatus would still find something to nitpick. There just isn't solidarity on this side as the democratic platform has a very strong plurality of voices that hardly ever agree. None of this is diversity of opinion is happening on the side that is pulling us into a christian neo-fascist state. And believe me: those guys show up to vote every time.
Let's assume that her polices were too center for your preferences. So what? Now that republicans control all branches and the judicial they'll dismantle everything we built up so far. So congratulations I guess? We have to redo 100 years of work because Kamala just wasnt left enough for us.
I'm running out of spoons to keep this conversation going.
But who is us? huh? Like you. Understand millions less people voted and the Republicans picked up votes in every demographic basically right?
So you are battling an invisible made up enemy.
The Republican party absolutely has dissenters. There are constantly people pushing back against trump and people even thought he was going to lose for some of his rhetoric and said so. You think they are all the same cause it's easier to think of them as a hegemony with no ability to interact with. Your concept of the voter bases is based on perception that isn't reality.
The trick is the GOP and their media presence is willing to get behind what works. They didn't want Trump when he first descended down that escalator but when he proved effective most of them were willing to work with it and do it too.
The DNC will not get behind what works because the bureaucracy and complexity is the point. A system made of convoluted rules and loopholes to exploit by then but keep things running was the point and held together by an idea of agreed upon norms in all those that hold power and a blind hope and desire that no one should be able to rise up that wouldn't respect the norms.
The nitpicking is only a problem because the plans are in the weeds on micro percentages of help while willfully ignoring larger populace demands and requests. Because to change those might upset someone else wealthy who wants things that way.
I understand that legislation is slow but in the act of trying to change things and getting pushback is actually a driving force for getting Republicans out to vote to undo those roadblocks because they think it will be better for them.
If the DNC was showing they were trying and failing to do good things because of not having the votes but fought hard still anyways the message might be behind them to get the support they want but aiming for micro wins with specific groups is not that.
You are stuck on this idea that some specific group of leftists just didn't agree with her centrism and thus didn't show up but that's not reality. She lost demographics from not speaking truth to the hurt that people were feeling and aiming for percentages of the population that the majority are not part of while expecting votes for simply not being a guy who makes people feel heard that they insulted over and over again.
It is not because Kamala wasn't left enough for us or me but because she didn't speak to the people who needed more than just not fascism.
She didn't appeal to them.I understand what you’re saying and I don’t disagree. She didn’t speak to the working class as effectively. I’m familiar with this analysis and I find it to be true. Trump was able to hit a nerve with the economic woes that most Americans are feeling. I get it. But between 2020 and 24 Trump lost almost no voters despite how despicable and lacking in policy he was. He’s charismatic and was able to touch on the fear and anxiety brewing in the working class. I get it. You’re not telling me anything I haven’t heard or disagree with. Kamala’s campaign was weak sauce. I agree.
My point of contention that while there are some voices of disagreement among republicans, those individuals get excised immediately from the party. Trump loses nothing in terms of electability. His base has enough support that it will alway showup to vote. Every time.
The left is a big tent party and almost none of the left media apparatus got united with the messaging in supporting the DNC candidate —regardless of where she stood center left or left of center. Until we resolve not having this unified front, we can have the most charming left progressive candidate but it won’t matter.
You can talk about complexity and loopholes as means of exploiting complacency, but remember: we are standing on a century of progress and hard work. There is still a lot of work to be done, but it’s very privileged of us to make statements like those and discount all the years of activism and hard work that brought us to where we are. Are things good now? Far from it. But that’s because we still have a long way to go. People who keep bringing up the ratchet meme to show us how the rich are exploiting us have just blanched out a hundred years of history and progress and thrown it in the bin. You’re also about to find out how that hundred years gets reversed faster than you’ve ever seen.
Your point of contention is using me as a blame tool for the dread you feel. It's why you keep insisting that I will see the destruction of hard earned rights.
I am the nail sticking up that you feel you can hammer down to feel better about the truth that it's millions and not about me.
You act as if I don't know some truth that you know, that if you could get through to me everything would be different or maybe just so that you feel better about someone "learning their lesson" for daring to suggest better from people who don't care much about trying their hardest at all.
Then be upset at the candidates and the DNC. I am nothing more than a straw man you hope to defeat with logic that doesn't matter or work.
My disagreement doesn't make the DNC better and fixing me won't make them win.
You have no idea what would happen with running a better candidate because it hasn't been done. It's speculation at best. And asking everyone to get behind someone they don't want is what gets us here. They won't. People will get behind what they want because they wanted Trump, who while yes is a moron comes up with the morons equivalent of solutions which sound good to people who just want an answer and to not think about it.
Your argument will lose because it does. Every time. Shoulda woulda and coulda don't matter. Stop trying to make everyone else change to match you. Try something new. Demand something new. And stop thinking that because someone said something negative about a bad candidate they lost because people criticize each other all the time and move on. She could have changed policy just like you can let this idea go that pointing out the policies that people didn't like made them not like them.
But she didn't and you won't. Stubborn is the human mind and I'm don't beating my head against yours while you search for something to make you feel better. It just tires me out for your state of mind is not my responsibility.
Their main failure was choosing a half black, half Indian women as their candidate. That in it self is 3 failures. You can have ONE of those things. 2 is highly improbable, 3 is impossible.
This has nothing to do with how I think Harris will perform as president but more to do with how racist and misogynistic this country is.
I truly thing Walz would have done better at the polls.
Her rallies were massive and she was polling 10%+ ahead of Trump when she was seen as progressive.
When she went full blue dog and parroted the same strategy Clinton failed with in 2016, the advantage evaporated and she started polling at or under Trump.
Falsely attributing the failure to misogyny solves nothing.
But if it isn't the progressives then it must be men's fault, black people's fault, Muslim people's fault while being the fault of racists, misogynists and Islamiaphobes.
Or you could blame the party instead of the voters.
Rallies don't turn into voters apparently.
More importantly, they stopped talking about rally size when she went blue dog.
The pictures I've seen of both sides' October rallies looked about the same, very different from her earlier massive rallies.
I think you might just be racist and sexist if that's your immediate thoughts.
Don't push yours on everyone else.
Trump voters are literally waving Nazi flags and wearing misogynistic shirts.
Explain your logic to me of how you came to the conclusion that someone calling out racism and sexism is actually racist and sexist themselves.
Trump voters were never ever going to vote for Harris or any Democratic candidate. It was pure hubris and Folly to think that they could snag some.
Trying to court Trump voters was definitely a mistake. The strategy should have been to energize progressives.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. John Fetterman would have won easily. Americans pick based on appearance.
Ah yes, another centrist. That will surely work this time.
Centrist is a label based on a candidate's position on issues.
I claim that doesn't matter. Image matters.
Fetterman is a large white male that makes Trump look weak. That's all that matters.
Trump can’t even run again
??? This is about the election that just happened.
I'd say they vote based on matching identities "(s)he's like me".