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Trump Backs Israel Bombarding Gaza: 'Gotta Finish the Problem'
Trump Backs Israel Bombarding Gaza: 'Gotta Finish the Problem'
www.rollingstone.com
Trump Backs Israel Bombarding Gaza: 'Gotta Finish the Problem'
497 评论
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Yeah but deciding not to vote for Biden just feels like a good trendy way to express my sympathies with Palestineans... /s
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I hope this gets posted in all the leftist boards. People need to understand Biden is a continuation of the United States' wishy-washy policies on Palestinians whereas Trump is pedal to the floor full acceleration towards genocide. Biden has shown he can at least be pressured into taking minor steps in the right direction. Being able to claim moral purity at the expense of a genocided Palestine will ring pretty hollow.
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Looking forward to what the Republicans cosplaying as leftists use instead of "genocide Joe" now that Donald is calling for a final solution.
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It will most likely continue to get used completely unironically along with cheering on the bombs.
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Pick one:
- Geriatric Joe, the president too senile to make up his mind on which side to support.
- Gray-area Joe, the weak president that refuses to take a stance on foreign affairs.
- Bystander Biden, the president that did nothing to end the Israel-Palestine war.
And so forth. They'll always find some other stupid thing to blame him for.
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I kinda like Bystander Biden tbh
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It's an election year, they're just trying to get their favorite orange fash in office. Horseshoe theory is a bitch.
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Along with what everyone else is saying, I think they could probably still try to make an attempt at taking like, a false moral position, along the lines of an accelerationism-style "oh, well, trump seeking to escalate the war would end it more quickly, thus, saving more lives in the long run" kind of thing. Obviously based on kind of false pretenses, but then, I think a lot of their political positions kind of assume war and resource extraction as an inevitability, and power as an ultimate moral good, on a deeper level, and the fascism and propaganda mind games they play are just kind of a stupid extension of that.
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They will keep using it, because the issue and consistency are both not something actual GOP voters need or care about. Their votes are already assured.
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Its not republicans, its russian shills/bots... ok wait... yeah, guess ur right.
And for the life of me, his correct name that ive been pushing since 2019, is Status Quo Joe. It was an insult then, cant believe its a vague defense now.
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Fark Brandon
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Plus the fact that Biden is definitively anti Ukrainian genocide, and Trump would not only pull US support of Ukraine, he would actively try to discourage NATO
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I mean if we start talking about all the horrible things that will happen under a Trump presidency, we'll never stop.
Until the men with guns put black bags over our heads and shove us into vans in the middle of the night.
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The "ppl" pushing the narrative ur complaining about arent on Ukraines side, nor or they on the side of NATO. Theyre busy convincing everyone they can that literally all western news is propaganda and the only true news will come from state sources in russia, china, etc.
The goal when engaging that side should, for the sane, anyway, always be not to convert the person ur speaking to, bc even if they arent bots/shills, their bad faith arguments turn aggressive incredibly quickly. Instead, the goal should be to demonstrate to the onlookers the absurdness of the tankie's position, and who it benefits/who is responsible for fabricating the position in the first place.
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Theyre busy convincing everyone they can that literally all western news is propaganda and the only true news will come from state sources in russia, china, etc.
you made this up
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I mean, Biden absolutely is wishy washy.
But he also reversed Trump's policy of saying West Bank settlement is legal, and sanctioned violent Israeli settlers.
Obviously Gaza's really bad, but what's happened and happening in the West Bank is also arguably ethnic cleansing. Chasing Palestinians off their land. Trump's a fan.
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But he also reversed Trump's policy of saying West Bank settlement is legal, and sanctioned violent Israeli settlers.
Israel announced this month that they are authorizing the creation of increased settlements in the West Bank.
If Biden used the power of the United States to stop this and to undo the existing illegal settlements then he would deserve credit. He will never choose to do this though. This is because Biden, and all mainstream Democrats and Republicans, are Zionists who believe Israel should not be forcibly prevented from expanding its current borders.
Trump is worse. But mainstream politicians are also horrific. It is equivalent to the choice between the gradualist death by a thousand cuts used by John Roberts vs the immediate exercise of power used by Samuel Alito. Either way, liberty and morality will be destroyed.
We need to demand better as American citizens. No one else can correct the United States but us
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Biden is a continuation of the United States' wishy-washy policies on Palestinians whereas Trump is pedal to the floor full acceleration towards genocide.
If these are the only options that our system offers us, then why shouldn't we demand our system be replaced?
Democrats are inadequate, Republicans are worse. If this is the only choice available within the United States, then why do we citizens allow the United States to continue?
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United States’ wishy-washy policies on Palestinians
Wishy-washy policies is my favorite way to say "apartheid ethnostate"
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I have a strict "no genocide" policy. Candidates that promote, endorse, allow, or sit idly by and let others do genocide are gonna be a no go from me.
It's not going to change unless we make demands.
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Numbnutz, clown, shill. Very convincing rhetoric. If the 100,000 in Michigan who voted uncommitted had heard these eloquent shibboleths, surely they would have changed their minds.
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Do what you want in the primaries. That is the time for it (although not voting doesn't do anything still). We are obviously talking about the general.
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If the 100,000 in Michigan who voted uncommitted
Not to mention the 19% of voters in Minnesota who voted uncommitted
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How about you make demands all the time instead of only when it's politically convenient for people who don't give a shit?
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Because that's exactly how you will get steamrolled. You're lucky there's people like us looking out for people like you.
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It’s The White Man’s Burden.
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I have a strict “no genocide” policy.
That's not one of the options though. You get to pick which genocide. You either get restrained genocide, or full genocide with a side of dismantling American democracy.
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Tell your kids how you rationalized voting for genocide.
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Happily, and I'll teach them how to do the same, when necessary. Unlike your parents apparently.
Sometimes there's no good choice, only bad and worse. That's how life works and I'm sad your parents never prepared you for that.
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Sometimes there's no good choice
Why?
And what conclusions can be drawn about who does and does not hold power in the United States?
And what should be done to the United States to correct this?
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You mean critical thinking?
As soon as it's assured Trump loses, and the subsequent cou de tat is quelled, you can all camp the White House front lawn and shake the fences, throw red paint, call old Biden an accessory to murder. Fill your boots.But not before.
Balancing on the tightrope with hell yawning below, is hardly the time to consider changing your shoelaces.
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PS it's French, so not very intuitive in its spelling:
Coup d'état
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Right you are
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As soon as it's assured Trump loses, and the subsequent cou de tat is quelled, you can all camp the White House front lawn and shake the fences, throw red paint, call old Biden an accessory to murder. Fill your boots.
None of that will cause any structural change, which is why it is permitted
How can we reshape the United States such that genocide is never permitted again?
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So just keep quiet for the next 6 months as Gaza starves?
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That sounds bad. But you have to remember that they're brown and Muslim. Which means it's OK.
Fish don't have any feelings, which makes it ok to eat them. Same logic applies here.
Remember to vote blue no matter who. And always remember that the United States is a good country filled with moral people
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Letting the most immoral thing happen as you sit on your hands isn't a moral victory on your part. It's a moral failing. If you had the chance to save ten people but one of them had to die, and you choose to let all of them die, you didn't do something moral.
You can pretend to yourself that your making a stand that matters, but any rational person see that you are choosing to let more harm be done because you can't stand to do something a little dirty but better. It's weak, not moral. We sometimes have to do the thing we wish we didn't in order to get the best outcome possible.
You don't clean your toilet because you enjoy it. You clean it because it needs to be done, and sometimes getting a little dirty is better than letting things get worse.
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If I have kids, I genuinely hope they ask me that. I hope they get angry at me, because the concept of a tacit genocide supporter being the lesser evil is unthinkable. I want them to live in a world where there aren't moral conundrums like that, and the closest they come to them is in gritty video games and academic hypotheticals.
I'm willing to support the lesser evil and have blood on my hands so they can live in a better world and condemn me for it. I will be thrilled if that comes to pass.
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I expect to have Jill Stein and cornel west on my ballot.
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Stein thinks the US forced Russia into invading Ukraine and doesn't support US aid or involvement for Ukrainians. Hardly unexpected, since she's dined with Russian oligarchs at anniversary dinners for RT.
As far as I'm concerned, she's Genocide Jill. I don't recall her criticizing RT when someone on there suggested drowning Ukrainian children.
What are West's positions on Ukraine?
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Stein thinks the US forced Russia into invading Ukraine
she never said that. she has said it was an illegal invasion, though.
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What are West’s positions on Ukraine
i've heard him say similar things to jill, but also that the shooting needs to stop.
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she’s dined with Russian oligarchs at anniversary dinners for RT.
this contains both misinformation and innuendo. she went to one dinner, and she paid her own way. RT was one of the few outlets that would give her air time during her 2012 presidential bid, which is more of a commentary on the corporate media and political parties than on anything she's ever done.
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Neither of which are options.
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if they are in the ballot, they are options
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That's not how it works. Either Biden or Trump will win. Anything else, you might as well not vote.
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there are reasons to vote besides choosing the winner, like getting another party over the 5% threshold.
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That hasn't meant anything in the past. It's happened before, and nothing changed regarding their viability.
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when? when did they get federal campaign funding?
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where did you get your crystal ball?
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Civics class.
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sounds to me like you're trying to suppress the vote of leftists.
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Jill Stein, yes, Cornell West? I wouldn't bet on it. He's 2 for 50 so far... I guess if you live in Alaska or Oregon, you're in luck.
He's going to wish he stayed the Green candidate.
Either way, they'll pull a tiny segment of the vote and won't win a single state, just like always.
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jill says they're on track to hit 5% this november. that's something worth voting for.
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Hey, there's a first time for anything...
2020:
Libertarian - 1.18%
Green - 0.26% (Howie Hawkins)2016:
Libertarian - 3.28%
Green - 1.07% (Jill Stein)2012:
Libertarian - 0.99%
Green - 0.36% (Jill Stein)2008:
Ralph Nader - 0.56%
Libertarian - 0.40%
Constitution - 0.15%
Green - 0.12% (Cynthia McKinney)2004:
Ralph Nader - 0.38%
Libertarian - 0.32%
Constitution - 0.12%
Green - 0.10% (David Cobb)2000:
Green - 2.74% (Ralph Nader)
Reform - 0.43% (Pat Buchanen)
Libertarian - 0.36%
Constitution - 0.09%
Natural Law - 0.08%In order to hit 5%, she would have to do twice as well as Nader did in 2000.
That is never going to happen.
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are you suggesting a politician would get in front of a camera and just lie??
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She's probably hopeful, delusionally so, but hopeful.
Nobody running for President is going to come out and just admit "Ok, yeah, I have trouble breaking 1%... but THIS TIME..."
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If its a primary then fuck Biden, but if it's the General Election then the blue name on the ballot is who gets the check.
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I am convinced a good chunk of the "genocide Joe" crew are agents provocateurs.
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You're may be right. I assume most of them are 'useful idiots'.
They realised western media were often biased, so they switched to 'critical' media, spent more and more time in internet bubbles, and ended up uncritically parroting Russian, Chinese or Iranian propaganda instead.
Same thing happened after 9/11 and Iraq. A lot of people were angry about how biased CNN was, so they switched to channels like Russia Today because it was critical of the US and did genuinely have a lot of good journalism. Of course, that doesn't mean Russia Today isn't propaganda. A lot of these people are forever lost, I don't think you can deprogram them.
Also if people use a lot of slogans like "cultural marxism", "Fuck Brandon" or "genocide Joe", without being able to articulate a nuanced position, it's likely they've succumb to newspeak. Newspeak uses an impoverished and simplified vocabulary, to prevent people from critical thinking.
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I don't think that "Fuck Brandon" is indicative of much. Especially since Biden himself has heavily leaned into the "Dark Brandon" persona since 2022.
You can't claim that people who use the term "Brandon" are brainwashed when Biden's own campaign uses the term - and even sells merchandise with the name/image depicted on it
Unless you're claiming that Dems/libs are also brainwashed, along with MAGA-types and the uncritical portions of the "dirtbag left". In which case you're correct, but likely unintentionally as that cuts against your broader point
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It must feel amazing to be held hostage by a ineffective political party that knows that if you don't vote for them then the alternative will be much worse.
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The salient point is that Trump is endorsing a pogrom.
Your takeaway from a story about a former President of the United States of America endorsing ethnic cleansing, is that a backhanded shot should be taken at the other party?
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Why do Republicans always get the good propagandists?
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They don't have to deal with nuance. Just tell them who to hate and maybe give them a talking point they'll swallow whole.
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They're willing to outsource it to countries with more expertise.
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I mean... It kinda sounded like gallows humor
This is a particularly great comparison.
Biden isn't doing enough to stop Palestinians from getting mowed down in food lines. He's so focused on appealing to the right that he's making the left lose hope
Trump is cheering it on, you know how he gets around authoritarians who commit human rights violations
One of these is clearly much worse than the other. No question. But the end result doesn't feel different
Every step forward is too little so late... Even the article this last week "Biden speaks out against Netanyahu" was him very carefully calling for a cease fire.
It's so little, so late... We're all waiting for him to go Darth Brandon and do something big. Something that'll give the left hope, and involve him making some deserving enemies
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It feels like shit but whatever plan you have isn't gonna change it
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Holding us hostage by... progressive voters choosing not to show up in the primaries.
Admittedly, bitching online is much easier and doesn't involve leaving the house but still...
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FYI, voting doesn't require leaving the house either. Register to vote by mail!
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Depends on your state. In the states where it matters the most, voting is the hardest.
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It feels like shit honestly. Maybe if more liberals/progressives voted...
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How did Dems do so well in the 2022 and 2020 and 2018 elections?
And why are a record number of congressional Democrats currently members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus?
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Must be amazing to think that there's a giant majority of Socialists in America and the only thing holding them back is the DNC.
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Bernie.
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You're proving my point here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2020_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
Bernie had four years to organize, and got 10 million fewer votes than Biden.
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Am I?
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Bernie himself expressed disappointment that he was unable to get the turnout he wanted, especially among young people. His campaign had a flawed goal to only target 40% of the vote, and his argument for victory was that he would turn out so many young people and disaffected nonvoters.
That didn't happen in the primary, and there wasn't a significant difference between open and closed primaries to suggest closed primaries were the culprit. Ironically when total voter count decreased, in caucuses, it was Bernie who was favored.
If you want to blame someone for his loss, blame the fact that youth turnout wasn't 100% for a trustworthy candidate who was promising free college, student loans forgiveness, legal weed, and free universal healthcare. I was 24 that year, so I'm not criticizing "the youth" in general, but my age cohort of tail end millennials.
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So, what exactly do I call a young person who heard a politician speaking to their issues, and at that a politician who consistently showed courage and was genuine, and sat out?
Sanders was exactly what's described. Someone to vote for. I understand cynicism, but if you actually want to see people who tackle issues you care about, you have to take the first step of voting for them. It isn't going to happen otherwise.
How else do you expect to stop being disillusioned by politicians unless you give someone the chance? It is absolutely correct to call them apathetic, and they shot themselves in the foot. We don't have the luxury of running five different Bernie Sanders types before they finally get off their ass.
It's harsh, but it seems like harsh is what they need to actually affect change. Roe being overturned generated much larger electoral consequences than candidates who would've kept Roe.
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The DNC isn't going to change unless there's an overwhelming outpouring of support for an insurgent candidate, like Sanders in 2020. You can only put your thumb on the scale so much. If all young people went out and voted, the numbers would've been too overwhelming for them to do anything.
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I’m not holding my breath. Voter apathy isn’t going away.
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"Bernie...Sanders"
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It is amazing that some people think that Biden can snap his fingers and Israel jumps to attention. Israel is a country that attacked the USS Liberty! Biden didn't start the conflict. People on both sides have died. You can't stop trains, super tankers of countries on a dime. It would be nice, however if folks would actually try to understand what is being done and why. Hint: you won't find in in the MSM or from Putin's trolls. Then again, mindless online bitching is so much easier.
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Yeah, you can't just call up Israel, threaten US aid, and tell them to end hostilities: that only worked when Reagan and did it! And when HW Bush did it! /s
I dont understand this idea that the US has no leverage when we are sending Israel billions of dollars. Without US resupply, several crucial Israeli military systems would be forced to shut down.
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So, we've already given them all the means and any call for action is "shutting down crucial military systems" aka leaving them vulnerable in a hostile region?
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"If you dont stop the genocide then we will stop arming your soldiers" sounds reasonable to me.
If Israel is left vulnerable in a hostile region, it will be because of their own actions.
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You do know... not all Israelis are military.
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And not all Gazans are Hamas, but the death toll is over 30k and people are starting to starve to death.
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Would your position then be Israelis have what's coming to them?
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I dont know what you mean by "what's coming to them". Right now it seems like there are no consequences for their actions, so nothing is coming to them.
I believe Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, Smotrich, and other military leaders have committed grave war crimes. They should be tried in international court and given a life sentence.
I also believe the Israeli state owes a gigantic financial debt for the destruction of Gaza's infrastructure. Israel has systemically destroyed water treatment, electricity production, schools, hospitals, residential buildings, etc. and they should rebuild it all.
But I do not believe violence is part of the answer. We need permanent ceasefire, we need truth and reconciliation, we need justice. Any post-ceasefire violence is unacceptable, whether it be against Israelis or Palestinians.
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Did German citizens in the 1940s deserve what was coming to them?
Perhaps not, or at least certainly not all of them. And yet Hitler was lawfully elected, which means many of them voted for him. Netanyahu and Likud were also lawfully elected.
The question is, what responsibility do voters in a democracy hold for the actions of their democratically elected government? If fair and lawful elections are held, and the voters elect a government that enacts genocide, are those voters liable? Historically the answer to that question has been no. But is that the correct answer? If so, then should American Trump voters also be held liable for his national crimes? What about voters for George W. Bush?
Perhaps greater responsibility would cause the world's voters to be more selective in whom they support.
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I don't know man, the situation in Isreal is part of the fallout of hitlers actions. Seems like that should factor in. The mistake people are making is that there is only an illusion of choice and a vote for a president actually factors in very little in the grand scheme. A president does have some limited power but they are enabled by their party. If we look at the parties who've done the most damage I would tip the scale one way, every time.
To answer your question should people be responsible for the illusion of choice of a president? Fuck no.
Should they use their vote to resist the spread of white supremecy and authoritianism, yes.
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So you don't care about signing death warrants you just want to be upset about things in the middle east?
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Well uh when you have the US Navy under your command, and already in the area dealing with Houthis, you know, by shooting down their missiles and bombing them and such, you actually /can/ stop trains and tankers.
You could airlift aid! You could, hilariously, stop ships heading to Israel with a Naval Blockade!
Obviously that last one isnt going to happen, but theres a whole lot more than basically nothing that you could do.
For starters: Cut off a bunch of joint projects between US and Israeli firms, stop sending them large amounts of money for other things, stop fucking shit canning every attempt by the UN to sanction Israel, or maybe even use these aforementioned things as threats and leverage to force a fucking ceasefire.
And now because this is the internet: Am I saying that Trump is somehow not bad, not far, far, far fucking worse by pointing out the rest?
Nooooo!
No, fucking obviously Trump would be a thousand times worse!
But pretending that there's nothing Biden could do is a joke.
He doesn't because he is a long time Zionist, and the American public, and particularly political and media figures, have been bathed in Zionist propaganda for so long that it takes an overt genocide for us to figure out that maybe Israel actually isn't a perfect unconditional ally.
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Amazing? I just feel helpless.
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497 评论