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Do you consider the concept of honor to be self-explanatory? Why?

When I say honor, what I mean is the idea of every individual being called to answer to everyone else. You know, the kind of thing you see from the Klingons. "You are thirty and unmarried, you bring dishonor to us" or "shame on your family for eternity because you were arrested for terrorism" or "what a disgrace you are for not having the skillset of your parents". This goes deeper than that though, sometimes it's more subtle, for example you might run into old classmates and all they want to know is how your brother is doing, or people keep telling you that you should live up to your sister or they might put you in some kind of shadow.

People who defend honor will often say "it is the masses who have spoken, enough said" but do you consider this self-explanatory and why? Because I have many questions sometimes that get no answer that seem to undermine the very justification of honor, for example... what defines a member of an honor culture, is the internet seen as a valid method of manifesting an honor culture, does an honor culture that faces a schism and breaks off from another become a dishonorable honor culture or equally valid, who was the first person to believe in certain ideas from which the honor culture got its conclusions, how did said person justify their ideas, is it dishonorable to find loopholes in the rules of the honor culture, are you dishonored if you save the life of someone who is seppukuing, what if this person happens to be the emperor, etc.

24 comments
  • Of course not.

    Honor is situational, cultural, and often nebulous.

    It can't be self explanatory. The closest it gets to that is within a given culture, it can be so engrained as to be learned early enough that it seems self explanatory from within.

    I'm normally pretty long winded, but that's really all that needs to be said imo.

  • is it dishonorable to find loopholes in the rules of the honor culture

    Dueling culture in 18th and 19th century Europe was commonly organized around concepts of "gentlemanly honor". Even back then, people recognized the need for loopholes.

    Consider the case of two friends who got drunk at a tavern, each one declaring how much they loved the other. Eventually, one friend goes overboard "I love you more than you know!" to which the response is "But that cannot be, for my love of you is infinite!". Soon this becomes an argument over who loves the other more, and eventually they have to settle their friendship like gentlemen: With swords at dawn. If they're smart and sober up in time, their seconds will work out a solution before the fight, but there are cases recorded where the friends kill each other because honor trumps love.

    There were also loopholes which worked to favor the person that society already deemed more "honorable" (wealthy, connected, liked, etc). It was generally accepted that a gentleman of certain standing could honorably refuse another's challenge to duel if their social stations were different. Think a "new money" banker's son challenging a minor nobleman over a loan that's due. It simply wouldn't look good to have some commoner slaying an aristocrat, even if said aristocrat was an asshole.

  • Honor is a social construct which is used to promote "pro-social" behavior. It can be useful in the absence of or in concert with other systems of social control (e.g. laws, religion). Of course, "pro-social" is very much a construct of what the creating society considers to be positive. This can include acting in ways which we, in our current social constructs, would consider "anti-social". Honor ends up getting idolized in media because it often includes an element of self-discipline and self-sacrifice and is usually associated with warrior cultures. Though, it also tends to be conservative and resist changing as social mores change. This has led to some famous consequences as honor based systems tried to cling to social constructs which were no longer tenable. For example, the Satsuma Rebellion saw the existing feudal class seek to maintain it's grip on power in then face of a changing society.

    Ultimately, any system of honor would need to be taught to new adherents. It's no different from a religion or legal system in that regard. No one comes out of the womb fully indoctrinated to a system of honor. So no, it isn't really self-explanatory. Like any social construct, you would need to define the system and how it interacts with the society in which is was created. Otherwise, it's just naming a system for social control and hoping no one notices that it's a hollow shell.

  • When I say honor, what I mean is the idea of every individual being called to answer to everyone else.

    It was not my will to be alive, but I was brought here anyway

    It was never my will to keep living, but I still have to "because reasons"

    The fact that I am alive right now is already enough. I don't owe any fuckers anything. You owe me. I answer to myself.

    I don't need honor to not rape or kill because I'm not a pscyco, but my life is my own and if you don't like Boo-fucking- hoo

  • Honor is a sense of a child doing things for which parents will praise them. An adult substitutes parents with other people and institutions, but honor is still a desire to be accepted and praised by others and anticipation of it.

24 comments