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Majority of People: I want a pony.
Candidate 1: I'm going to kill all the ponies.
Candidate 2: I won't do that, and will try to make ponies more affordable (because price-fixing the cost of ponies is not within my constitutional powers)
Leftist: "But that's not good enough! I want a free pony. And a blowjob. I'm voting 3rd party 😤"
Do keep in mind these aggressive purist Gatekeeping / no true Scot leftists are very often just right-wing astroturfers. It hits two birds with one stone: they make leftism obnoxious, they often muddy the waters of violence, and wedge-drive the Democratic coalition to get Trump elected.
Either that or they're very young and naive.
Don't fall for it. You'll see more of this the closer the election gets.
Oh, I'm not fooled (for the most part, anyway). I'm just giving the benefit of doubt and calling them out using their own arguments and trying to not make any assumptions or accusations.
The problem is they don't often argue in good faith. Usually deflection and gish-gallop are their MO. So be concise and be mindful of the bystander audience.
Oh, for sure. I never argue to change their minds, just to shut down whatever narrative they're trying to spin for the bystander audience. I'll usually play along with the gish-galloping as long as time allows but usually stop when they transition into sealioning.
bUt HeR eMAiLz!!!
wait . . . is that? . . no, yeah that's right.
GOP Jesus approves.
Spot fucking on, but its that second group, the young and naive that make these points worth arguing and harping on about. Sometimes those of us whove been online our whole lives forget the indoctrinating power of the internet. Shit, thats what pushed me further and further left, and still does to this day.
And ur last sentence.... oof... i know.... brace yourselves, and kick up the counterefforts.
Great point - I don't mean to disparage those newcomers to politics. We've all been there of course.
I guess I gate-kept a bit there myself, and my apologies for that.
No no no! I didn't take it that way at all, just wanted to add the clarification i figured u left out.
I figured if u were gatekeeping against youth u wouldnt have even bothered to comment at all. Sorry if i sounded like i was putting down ur point for it, u were saying something i think we all could hear more on this platform. Esp as the tankies pretend that the presence of bad faith actors on lemmy trying to hand the election to sr. Racismo via non-voting/third party voting is not existent.
Comments like this give me hope friend. Keep fighting the good fight :)
I feel like i dispense a lot of thank yous and encouragement to everyone else to keep it up. It feels nice to be on the receiving end so randomly. Thanks dude. Made me smile, for real <3
Aight im back to say, im rereading this thread and some of ur other comments above (about astroturfing leading the young esp) go so hard.
So me fight the good fight? You, you sir keep fighting the good fight. As in the present tense. As in u have been. Dont stop.
Solidarity to u and all other leftist speakers and activists seeking change by whichever means they know how...
Just leave some in the bank for when election season is upon us.....
Aw thanks and likewise — comments like yours really help to shatter all the depression and gaslighting that gets spread and restores some semblance of sanity :)
And don't worry about losing steam! I'm amped up for the election year and will only continue to ramp it up! I have frankly too many ideas to enhance my personal impact on the election and need to get better organized lol.
Please do.
For all the "Russian Shill" tags i dispense with on here, urs is one of the first im tagging as "Comrade."
Its time to start thinking about collecting ourselves on this platform to fight against the misinformation, gaslighting, and just outright foreign interference we see here. We owe to the newcomers for this platform to not just be a hive of, "voting is genocide 😱."
I want solidarity. Solidarity between anyone leftward leaning. If a righty has a leftist idea, it must be backed. If status quo joe wants to reunite even one family separated at the border, we should back the notion.
the tankies pretend that the presence of bad faith actors on lemmy trying to hand the election to sr. Racismo via non-voting/third party voting is not existent.
if it existed, why haven't you ever produced any evidence of it?
Bc im not wasting my time on yall. Im not going to participate in what will either turn into a gush gallop or gaslighting. Uve got it in this thread. U got it all over hexbear and .ml.
Thanks for caring enough to follow tho 🥰
a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and no one should believe your claims unless you support them.
It's a few of the astroturfers leading a bunch of the young and naive.
Fucking. Preach.
$5 say the "They should earn my vote" line is a favorite of right wing and Russian trolls a la 2018's #WalkAway movement.
i don't believe you can prove anyone (not everyone, just one person) who doesn't think biden is good enough is either right wing or "young and naive"
No but I can prove they're short-sighted; and those two things go hand-in-hand. In my experience I've frankly yet to see someone older than like 22-years-old espouse such self-defeating beliefs and goals.
I can also prove that right-wing extremists engage in political astroturfing routinely and that according to investigative reporting these far-right groups intend to muddy the waters.
Taken from there, it takes very little ink (inductive reasoning) to connect the dots.
can prove they’re short-sighted;
how? what methodology is available to you to prove such an accusation?
EDIT: Observe the user below spamming multiple replies to the same comment. This is part of the gaslighting gish-gallop tactic I've noted. There is a user here I suspect of having many alt accounts and who frequently does this. I encourage you to report them for spam.
what methodology is available to you to prove such an accusation?
If I may, a thing called logic.
- If your goal is to minimize genocide, both in Palestine and Ukraine.
- If your goal is to ensure that we don't fall further into fascism.
- If the choices on the ballot in November are a constant, regardless of anything else that happens.
- If you understand the nature of entropy in that maintaining let alone building-upon a trillion-piece puzzle is exceedingly more taxing than smashing it.
- If other guy is significantly-worse for Ukrainians, Palestinians, US, and the World.
- If you understand the mathematical trend of FPTP and the Spoiler Effect.
.... Then one understands the logical choice is voting for Biden and doing anything else from not voting, voting Republican, voting 3rd-party, writing-in -- is utterly self-defeating and short-sighted to the aforementioned goals.
If you don't understand these things, then yes, one might have built their ardent beliefs atop a house of cards.
👏👏👏
biden will push us further into fascism just as he has for the past 50 years. voting for him does not, in fact, ensure we don't fall further into fascism.
edit: the gish gallop is the litany of premises shoved together. if they could defend any of these points, they should, instead of (in bad faith) accusing others of acting in bad faith.
No, but voting for Trump or helping him win by hiding behind a 3rd party candidate will advance fascism guaranteed. But please, continue astroturfing this thread with your repeating, broken argument.
only a vote for trump helps him win. and voting for biden also guarantees fascism advances.
LOL, if you could prove Duvinger's Law wrong you'd be famous, but you're not.
You're very likely a Trump supporter stirring shit with those facile arguments.
You know what this sort of rhetorical technique they're using reminds me of? Sovereign citizens lmao.
nonfalsifiability is actually a bad feature in theories.
LOL, if you could prove Duvinger’s Law wrong you’d be famous, but you’re not.
duverger's "law" has no predictive value at all. it's post-hoc storytelling. you can't prove it wrong because it's a useless tautology.
You’re very likely a Trump supporter stirring shit with those facile arguments.
baby, i'm an anarchist.
your accusation of astroturfing is just poisoning the well.
the spoiler effect is story telling.
i can believe the other guy is worse without believing its moral to help biden maintain power.
Taken from there, it takes very little ink (inductive reasoning) to connect the dots.
this isn't proof. it's innuendo.
3rd party: “I can make big promises willy nilly because there is zero chance I’ll win and therefore won’t be held accountable”
The leftist in this comment also makes sure to plug their ears nice and good if u tell them that the first candidate is financed by foreign powers literally hostile to anything u hold dear, a situation beyond unprecedented.
Voting is the least u can do politically, but it is still praxis, and absolutely necessary given the circumstances.
free pony and blowjob
Avasarala for president!
The poster is just "go fuck yourself"
Candidate 1: I will keep giving guns to the people killing ponies but I will feel bad about it and criticize them sometimes
Candidate 2: I will give the guns and not feel bad.
Leftist: hey can anyone just, you know, not help people kill ponies?
Centrist: omg I can't believe you're asking for so much from your candidates. Your ideological purity is the real enemy here. I bet you don't even care about ponies
It's called nuance and seeing the big picture, sweetie.
Haha yeah a very nuanced and realistic portrayal of leftists. Obviously we just want free ponies and blowjobs. Preventing geno-what? Never heard of it
Edit. Star Trek profile pic? Remember when the federation gave weapons and aid to the dominion because it was politically convenient and the cardassians are worse anyway? No neither do I.
Haha yeah a very nuanced and realistic portrayal of leftists. Obviously we just want free ponies and blowjobs. Preventing geno-what? Never heard of it
Edit. Star Trek profile pic? Remember when the federation gave weapons and aid to the dominion because it was politically convenient and the cardassians are worse anyway? No neither do I.
For a second there, I was willing to accept you might be arguing in good faith, but the personal attack you felt the need to tack on destroyed that benefit of doubt and my willingness to continue in debate.
There was no personal attack there.
Have you ever talked to someone irl? If so, did you do it without crying?
I am arguing in good faith, obviously. There was no personal attack. I'm sure you draw some distinction between pure morals (as in trek) and "real life" but I genuinely do not see how this is defensible. I'm sure you're a nice person
Mmmm, I absolutely love that centrist condescension, "sweetie".
Real strange way to make a point
Candidate 2: I’m going to give guns and money to the person killing ponies but tell them they shouldn’t do it.
Leftist: Either way ponies are going to be killed. Let’s try something different.
Centrist: Noooo, you have to vote for the proxy pony killer who can’t use his position to do anything or else you’ll get a pony killer in power who’ll use his position to do everything.
Leftist: Either way ponies are going to be killed. Let’s try something different.
"Something different" here meaning "handing over the position to the worse of the two options".
Acting like Candidate 1 won't do the same and worse
Acting like candidate 2 is at all a good option either.
Would you rather get stabbed in the finger or stabbed in the eye?
I’d rather stab the person trying to stab me anywhere.
You're getting stabbed whatever happens.
Would you rather get stabbed in the finger or stabbed in the eye?
The third option is to reject the United States and replace it with something that isn't an oligarchy
So, the eye
Neither.
There is always other options, you just have to take them.
There aren't. There are only two possible outcomes.
Stabbed in the finger or stabbed in the eye?
Stabbed in the eye it is then.
There is always other options, you just have to take them.
lmao
Have fun losing more rights instead of compromising on Biden becsuse he isn't 100% perfect.
Have fun refusing to admit Biden is flawed.
Surely the status quo is the solution to stopping Trump and the growing threat of the right.
I have not seen a single person try and claim that Biden isn't flawed. It's entirely possible to criticize him and still vote for him given the only other possibility. Until we get away from FPTP voting there is only two options for president in the general election. You wont get away from FPTP voting until you can overrule the GOP in Congress. You cannot do that without winning elections.
The people you're arguing with aren't devoted to Biden. He's simply the only way we can keep Trump from retaking office at this moment. He's also done a lot of good things during his term. I'd argue he's been a net benefit to the country given the context.
We absolutely need to primary Biden and everyone like him, that work has to be done but that shit takes work and time. It's a lot easier to do when we can bring more people into the tent. Painting both parties as equally bad and not worthwhile of your vote is literally making it harder to reform the Democratic Party and actually achieve the things progressives are fighting for.
Saying he isn't 100% perfect is either what you mean by flawed or you have a ridiculously high level of perfection to call him flawed.
Must be the latter.
Do y'all just, sincerely not understand what "lesser evil" means? Yes, the lesser evil is still bad. We know. That's what "evil" means. Both options suck, one sucks measurably more, so you choose the one that is less bad.
None of these "Both sides!" Leftists ever seem to offer specific or workable alternatives. It's always something vague like "Have our voices be heard, take back the country from the oligarchs!" And I feel that, but like, how? What specific candidate or action is going to prevent both from winning?
Permanently Deleted
You said it so perfectly and I never realized it. "If you elect our guy, he won't be able to do anything, but at least it's better than if you elect the other guy. If you elect the other guy, somehow he'll be able to do everything he wants. But vote for our impotent guy instead. It's safe!"
Um what?
One follows the rules, and the other often doesn't even think there are rules. The difference there isn't hard to suss out. It's like that joke about playing chess with a pigeon.
I want a guy who doesn't think there are rules, and will protect ponies. Why isn't that a possibility
Because not thinking there are rules into adulthood is a pretty self-absorbed trait, which usually doesn't go along with things like empathy and compassion.
There aren't rules. Trump is proof of that
A socialist with that same attitude towards rules, norms, and civility would be the ideal option. That isn't possible under our system. However, a fascist with those views is possible.
And the neoliberal erosion of living standards will just make the fascists more appealing to normal people. So if the fascists don't win in 2024 then they'll win in the near future unless we have a massive expansion of the welfare state that helps median Americans, not just the incredibly poor
You literally can't try something different, in this election. It's physically impossible. Leftists should be channeling this energy to the next election, and building a viable candidate that truly meets their needs.