New book reveals Tiananmen square massacre, others fabricated by US
New book reveals Tiananmen square massacre, others fabricated by US
english.almayadeen.net
New book reveals Tiananmen square massacre, others fabricated by US
290 comments
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let me put this here real quick
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Libs will probably lose their minds if they can't make jokes about Tiananmen Square.
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I'm probably replying to some anti-lib community, but it's really weird coming from "/c/all" that nearly every comment has some sort of jab at "libs" for a topic that I would never associate with a political spectrum.
Fyi I'm not affiliated with any political "side" and I'm not American, so it just seems weird to be.
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We are an a communist instance. American liberals (which includes both of their major political parties) are very imperialist and love to push propaganda about their enemies. It's why public opinion for China took a nose dive in the last 10 years. Why Iran is so evil, but nobody thinks about Kuwait. Why Tiananmen square gets so much attention but the white terror receives none. China's the enemy, and "Taiwan" is an innocent friend that needs protecting.
Being communist, we are anti-imperialist, and hate the war mongering propaganda that the liberals seem to lap up. They see this as being conspiracy theorists or contrarian. Hence the conflict about things like this.
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The only reason whitey even gives a shit about these dead chinese people is that they hate china so much. After all, half of them are still secretly jerking themselves off at the thought of millions of chinese farmers dying due to the Three Gorges Dam going broke.
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Muricans; TIANAMEN SEESEEPEE 10,000 dead tank jelly gutters!
Also Muricans: What do you mean Indonesia slaughtered half a million innocent people with the knowledge and support of the US government? What do you means the US and Saudi conspired to kill hundreds of thousands of Yemenis in a campaign of naked and uncomplicated genocide? What do you mean the South Korean forces murdered tens of thousands of innocent people using a pretense of communism? That's all bullshit I would have heard about that and anyway they weren't white so I don't care.
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Same can be applied to Xinjiang propaganda. "Oh, the State Department now cares about Muslim lives?"
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The US led war on terror killed more Muslims than exist in Xinjiang
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That's dope. The one thing I always find frustrating when bickering over politics is people not even caring to read or learn more. I have a lot more respect for my friends when they do, even if all it does is give more nuance to their takes.
Hell if I never decided to read more shit I'd still be a right winger with the rest of the nutcase family.
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is there a tldr on exactly what happened then? there were undeniably a lot of tanks present, which is not a good sign.
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this is a pretty good summary https://redsails.org/another-view-of-tiananmen/
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I did a deep-ish dive on primary and secondary evidence for the time. Still have it in a google doc that could turn out an article.
I think the tl;dr is that the popular narrative (especially in Australia, where I live) is that the CPC bulldozed 10,000 protesters at Tiananmen Square with tanks in 1989 because they were protesting against the communist party. Guts squishing out of treads. The narrative obviously paints Australia's largest export partner as hideously evil (and by association every socialist project. Whether or not you accept this, a lot of Australians do).
My own research (sorry, I hate this term, conspiracy theorists ruined it) has uncovered a few things that are publicly available that throw shade on this narrative:
- Most of the journalists that were actually present (I focused on Australian ones, because that's where I live) agree that no massacre happened at the square that night. They claim to have been amongst the last to leave after the order to disperse.
- The source for 10,000 comes from two places: A journalist at a nearby hospital who estimates that 10k people could have been rushed in as casualties. More significantly, the main source for the 10k figure was an intelligence asset at the Australian Embassy IIRC who said that an internal member of the CPC had told them the 10k figure. Notably, this happened quite early in the night. This was then repeated by the Prime Minister the next day (totally to the surprise of the intelligence asset and the embassy).
- The source for tanks grinding up protesters bodies into paste come from one place, a person that the above journalists say was not present at Tiananmen Square and was in a position to flee the country a couple of hours later. Not impossible, but strains credibility. The source's claims later influenced people's memories of "Tank Man", a video of a person interacting with a column of tanks for a bit before leaving. Ballsy, for sure, but he was not being ground up into paste and neither did the tank crews seem willing to do that.
- There were separate protests going on on the highway leading up to the Square. China is a big place with a lot of people, and at the time Deng was introducing market reforms. A significant number of protesters were in both events were protesting against the market reforms that Deng was introducing (allowing more free flow of Capital to the rest of China). The majority of the deaths (that did happen, I wouldn't claim otherwise) happened on this approach. For this reason, the most senior journalist of the Australian cohort at the time regrets calling it the Tiananman square massacre as he feels it gives the CPC ammunition to discredit everything about it. He's still alive, I have an email I need to send him, or go bother him in person next time I'm in Melbourne.
- The massacre (the references to the event that did happen) was more like a roving street battle. The first casualties were Chinese soldiers, some of which were burned alive while chained to buses and APCs. There were also many protester casualties. The CPC claims a little under 300 fatalities of the entire event, including their own troops. I find this largely plausible, or at least that it's lower than the commonly believed 10k figure in my country by at least an order of magnitude.
- The biggest promoters of the various claims are people closely associated with the NED's office in Beijing. I don't know what that means to you.
Anyway, after doing this "research" I kinda figured that most people in my social circles don't want to hear it, even though the information is very publicly available. So why bother bringing it up in normal conversation? The best you're doing is probably excluding yourself from any conversation.
I still have the names of the journos, parties etc. in question if you want, as well as various links. I am just a little drunk and haven't opened up the document.
I am approaching this in as good faith as possible.
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thank you. you should share the document here because sources are important.
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The whole Tiananmen thing is so ridiculous. Chinese government's official estimate? ~300 deaths. People who were in the square? No one died in the square, good mood between soldiers and students, soldiers asked students to leave when dickass CIA plant started trying to start a riot, students left with no problems, ~300 people were killed (including PLA soldiers, many of whom were unarmed!) in fighting several blocks from the square. Every credible source that wasn't just making up unhinged bullshit - About 300 people died.
It's so damn frustrating, it's just pure, utter bullshit but libs believe it with nigh-religious ferver and certainty.
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It was not fabricated, it was exaggerated. Clashes occurred around Beijing and bloodshed was real. Most of them were Maoists clashing with pro market reform government.
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Nobody is denying bloodshed. There absolutely were violent protests outside the square. The claim in question is that the military gunned down thousands of peaceful protesters in the square, which so far as I know is a claim that's exclusively made by people who were not there.
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Even that is giving too much credit to the US government narrative.
There literally are all the US mainstream news outlets like CBS News who actually had reporters there at the time: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/
Also from classified US communications with assets on the ground: https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html
Funniest thing is that "tank man" photo idiots spam on Reddit all the time. Most people in the west don't realize there is video of it, that the guy didn't get run over. Furthermore they assume he was blocking tanks heading towards the square, infact those tanks were at the time headed away from the square to avoid engaging with armed agitators (people with guns and grenades that had killed police) in a crowded environment. Dude was trying to make them go back.
The deaths that day were people who got gunned down by the "protestors" or the police who were killed when the "protestors" threw grenades (military ordnance) into police vehicles. People that were armed by the CIA as part of a color revolution operation, one that failed because it didn't actually have any support and more importantly because the PLA commander on the scene ordered his units to leave the area rather than responding in kind. The only actual protestors that day were communists having labor protests happening nearby and not the dancing libertine youth acting as the face of the US color revolution operation involving armed groups trying unsuccessfully to provoke the PLA soliders into responding to deadly attacks with deadly force in a crowded urban environment.
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On balance, it would be fair to say that while thousands of protestors were most likely not gunned down in the square itself, hundreds were being gunned down around it. So there was a massacre by the PLA, it just didn't happen in the square itself.
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most of them by the time the actual violent clashes happened certainly werent maoists. Yeah there was a significant % of the protestors that were coming from the left of the CPC but you have to remember that the unrest span month(s) and many cities. In Tainanmen by that point in the movement and leading to that the make up of those that stayed and engaged in lynchings and clashes with the PLA and police was solidly "pro-democracy/free-s[peech/liberalism" youth. Also western intelligence focus and assets had already zeroed in in Beijing and those elements after smelling blood from the more organic initial country wide unrest.
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I like that we have/need new books to re-report information that was widely known decades ago because of how easy it is to sell propaganda to the west. We have actual documentaries, made by the west at the time of Tiananmen, that completely contradicts the massacre narrative that was invented years later. lol. Libs really will believe anything as long as it comes from the mouth of some oligarch backed talking head.
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The key reason this kind of lazy propaganda works is because people want to believe it. It leverages the latent racism and capitalist realism people have internalized living in decaying western societies. The idea that a country that doesn't follow liberal ideology could be more successful is a complete anathema to these people.
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Indeed. "The west is the best" is the prevailing thought in the zeitgeist of the west. So as bad as things can be in the west, at least they are still "the best." But if other nations actually practice "freedom and liberty" better than they do, despite not screaming about how "free" they are all the time, it calls the whole western narrative into question. And causes a lot of cognitive dissonance. And people in the west are not given the tools they need to deal with that, so they just lash out and get angry, or find an easy excuse to ignore it.
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Have you seen that chart that tracks how Americans went from credditing the USSR for making the greatest sacrifice in WWII and contributing the most to victory in 1946, to completely removing the Soviet contribution from the picture by the 80s? It's really sad. The Red Army deserves better.
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Thread I wrote about Tiananmen: https://twitter.com/prolewiki/status/1666492127730098208 (Thread reader link due to Musk fuckery on twitter)
CIA-funded leader Chai Ling crying crocodile tears hoping students will be shot while she herself deadpan says she'll be out of the country: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5__ESiklA1A. She was later extradited by the CIA during Operation Yellowbird and now lives in the USA.
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I always enjoy re-watching the full "Tank Man" video, with the "brutal Chinese tanks" awkwardly trying to bypass the protestor and patiently waiting him out. I think libs just see that single frame and fill the gaps with their own experiences in their countries in thinking that the guy got ran over or something. If you try that with a secret service car they might do just that.
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If you try that with a secret service car they might do just that.
There's videos of NYPD just plowing BLM protesters. Amerikkkans think other places are as awful as theirs is.
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Wow, straight-up propaganda. Seek the Truth, people. That event has been covered by multiple reputable journalists, from all around the world...
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This is what tankies actually believe
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- those damn tankies at checks notes... cbs news?
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It's true we do!
Facts and logic don't care about your ideology!
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If by tankies you mean people who have any historical literacy at all then yeah.
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what the fuck is this shite, tiananmen happened you fucking cunts cry me a river
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Anti-Communists: "communists are all brainwashed to ignore evidence!"
Anti communists when faced with the evidence:
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Mothers
please contact the families of the dead yourself you heartless fuck
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want me to pull up the mass starvation records under mao or are yiu going to claim thats fake too, youre no better than a holocaust denier. fuck off
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Have you ever tried... Reading anything? Other than comment sections I mean.
Even western sources agree with us. The only place that continues to spread the mythological bullshit narrative that was first dreamt up about it is reddit. Everyone else, even the western press, has accepted that the Chinese narrative is more accurate.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/
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lmao you wanna try that again without any slurs? you forgot to put your mask on before coming into the discussion, dronie
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Gonna cry about 10k invented dead people? ok, it's good to let emotions out sometimes
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Akshually sweaty, according to the intense and very legitimate research of the victims of communism foundation every one of those 10,000 theoretical victims would have had 10,000 good anti-communist childre, who would have had 10,000 children, so really the ICUP killed THIRTY INFINITY PEOPLE, including all of the neanderthals and DB Cooper!
What do you have to say to that, tankie!?!?!
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how tf does anyome invent 10K dead people??? they had fucjing families yiu moron yiu can go ask them yiurself you degenerate shithead. stop sucking off some dictators cock
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cry me a river
your ideologues sure fucking did when no one got massacred at the tiananmen square
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There was a protest, there was no massacre. Sorry the facts hurt your feelings
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Why would you get angry at the fact that there's less massacres?
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thats a perverted bastardisation of my argument and you know it, im angry cause youre lying about a massacre that did happen not happening
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Most reliable genzedong news source. When you google A B Abrams, supposed writer of the book in question there is zero information about him other than the very questionable books he has written from very biased news sources. And there aren’t many.
Let me ask you this, what does A B in A B Abrams stand for? Nothing because they aren’t a real person.
When you google A B Abrams, one of the top results is from the “daily nk” i.e. the daily North Korea. Where we are told that the author has published under multiple pseudonyms, none of which we are told. They supposedly have multiple Masters degrees in “related fields” from the university of London. Which by the way, is not a single university but a group of different universities throughout London, so that’s even more vague. And then finally, we are told that “A B Abrams” studied korean at the university of Pyongyang. And has many contacts with people inside of North Korea.
To me, this screams propaganda, likely originating from North Korea or potentially even China, in order to make the west look bad. And you can make the west look bad without lying about the Tiananmen Square Massacre’s existence.
To deny the events that unfolded at Tiananmen Square is like denying that humans have been to the moon. It’s an unfounded, in fact, disprovable conspiracy theory.
Also, if the Tiananmen Square massacre had never happened, then why does the Chinese government continue to block any mention of it vis the firewall and censorship?
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To deny the events that unfolded at Tiananmen Square is like denying that humans have been to the moon. It’s an unfounded, in fact, disprovable conspiracy theory.
So prove it to us then. All you're doing right now is scolding us for being insane conspiracy theorists. I've never seen any evidence that anything happened at tiananmen square. Reports from people who were actually there all say that there was no massacre
The US has a very long history of lying about its enemies. There are plenty of declassified CIA docs that talk about what lies to tell the media. Why is this one different?
Edit: also, see pen names. Isn't it a little hypocritical to call us conspiracy theorists when you come to the conclusion that the book was lies written by China or North Korea because you can't find any information about the author?
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Isn’t it a little hypocritical to call us conspiracy theorists
Radlibs and seeing irony are the bitterest of foes.
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I can’t prove it to you, I just use my skills at googling “A B Abrams” to conclude that this is untrustworthy. I also can’t prove that the moon landing happened or that matter is made of atoms, doesn’t mean they are false.
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The Daily NK is a South Korean newspaper that also happens to be funded by the US through the National Endowment for Democracy. It would be funny if the US were funding a North Korean propaganda outfit but somehow I don’t think that’s what’s happening.
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It would be funny if the US were funding a North Korean propaganda outfit but somehow I don’t think that’s what’s happening.
Hey, maybe while we were out posting, the reincarnated Huey Newton and William Z. Foster took over the US government and established a Marxist-Leninist state. After all, nobody can right at this instant prove it didn't happen...
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in order to make the west look bad. And you can make the west look bad without lying about the Tiananmen Square Massacre’s existence.
Then why would these sources be lying?
NKnews and Daily NK are anti-DPRK news outlets funded by the U.S. Be pretty funny if even y'all's most orientalist propaganda outlet turned out to be Norf Kowean (OR EVEN CHINESE!!!) Pwopaganda!
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Also, if the Tiananmen Square massacre had never happened, then why does the Chinese government continue to block any mention of it vis the firewall and censorship?
Because the purpose of the firewall is to keep the West out.
This is like asking why people who call the Civil War the "War of Northern Aggression" are censored/ignored. It's historically inaccurate and you deserve to be the subject of animus and suspicion if you do so.
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from what I've heard, they don't even block discussion of it in China, it's just called the "June 4th incident" 😑
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Because the purpose of the firewall is to keep the West out.
This is a common misconception. The real purpose of the Great Firewall is to keep China's posters in. The CPC is doing the world a great kindness. I've seen the magnitude of posting that happens in China. We could not survive posting of that magnitude.
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100% more reliable as a source than Adrian Zenz and yet Im sure you believe all the Uigher genocide bullshit that almost always circles back to him or literally U.S. mouthpieces like Radio Free Asia
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This just in: Author known for writing books.
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if the Tiananmen Square massacre had never happened, then why does the Chinese government continue to block any mention of it vis the firewall and censorship?
They don't. People in China know that the protests in 89 happened, they just don't think it's a big deal. The idea that it's this huge dangerous taboo is just western
brainworms -
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If you are actually interested in learning about the event and you are skeptical if this book, then you should look at Qiao Collective’s reading list: https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/tiananmenreadinglist
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Why don't you read the book, investigate the citations and claims, and report back on whether the text is fabricated?
Whether or not the writer has a connection to China or the DPRK doesn't actually impact the soundness of any claim. If anything, you are taking an extreme position about academic authority that isn't reflective of reality. You should use your critical thinking skills to assess the claims in the book instead of attacking the author because they might be a Korean or Chinese national. It is kinda racist to assume someone from China or Pyongyang are unable to write on these topics without it being "propaganda"
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Don't you know? If a source comes for CHYNA or NORF COURIER it is automatically fake and lies. Automatically. If Xi Jinping said the moon is real, it would instantly pop out of existence.
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Exactly how many times has the US lied to us? You expect me to to belive the country that said Iraq had WMD when they say anything? When they brag about lying all the time?
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If you wanna read an informative text on this topic that is sourced you can refer to: https://redsails.org/another-view-of-tiananmen/
It is long but crucially contains the background of the protests which most people are unaware of.
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Also, if the Tiananmen Square massacre had never happened, then why does the Chinese government continue to block any mention of it vis the firewall and censorship
Open report 590, it's the first item of the day. I hope you didn't expect they would talk about it in English.
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Dude. These people are insane and not worth your time. Just block the sub like I’m about to do and never look back. They can find comfort in their eco chamber
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Just block the sub
They can find comfort in their ec[h]o chamber
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Nah, you're in the echo believing western propaganda that you're too stupid to recognize. You probably believe in weeger genocide. Ethnic minorities, including uighurs were excluded from the one child policy. If China wanted to do genocide, why would they be exempt from draconian population control that was already in place?
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"People who disagree with me are mentally ill and worthless. I, for one, prefer to create my own comfortable eco chamber, never look back, and then accuse them of living in an eco chamber."
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Shouldn't even take a book to come to that conclusion, honestly. Frankly, I doubt anyone who is entrenteched in the propaganda around the event would change their mind no matter how much evidence you show them. For them, China is bad, so everything else must follow from that.
Even western media, at the time of the event, said that basically nothing happened in the square. It wasn't until they realised that didn't line up with the US position that they changed their line, but you can find old articles (including first hand accounts from diplomats in the area) that say there wasn't much.
I don't think anyone denies that some violence occured in the city as a whole, though it was very often levied the opposite way of popular portrayal. Especially because a lot of the PLA that were initially deployed were not even armed.
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Westies are just really sour that their color revolution failed in China.
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No ML denies that China is 'authoritarian'. They argue that all states are.
Almost everything Marxists say is poorly understood by their detractors and framed in a negative light in one way or another.
what as far as I can tell is the rest of the academic world that doesn’t agree with you?
This makes it seem as though you haven't read the literature and arguments of either side. If that's the case you shouldn't be coming to any conclusions at all, especially to dismiss one side outright for being unorthodox. By definition, the counter narrative is going to sound unorthodox in light of the orthodox claims. The correct approach is to read the source and judge it on its own merit and in light of other known facts.
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Honestly, you want a simple, widely accepted, heavily west-biased source? Literally just read the wikipedia article.
"[CBS and WP journalists] could not find enough evidence to suggest that a massacre took place on the square"
"cables from the United States embassy in Beijing agreed there was no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square"
Nobody here is denying there were protests, or that a limited number people died in clashes with police across the country. But literally no reputed source, western lib or otherwise, claims that the government was out in Tianenmen killing civilians in major numbers.
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all it takes for me to believe it is to see the fear in the faces of Chinese people when asked certain questions.
The "I talked to one person so now I'm an expert on the situation" school of historical anyalysis.
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extraordinary claim and therefore is going to require extraordinary evidence
All it takes to prove that the massacre did happen is evidence. Where is this extraordinary evidence?
Proving that something doesn't exist is much harder. There was a liberal in here earlier though that was also saying that we're a bunch of conspiracy theorists. I gave him links, you can see them below. First hand reports from people who were actually there say that there was no massacre. This includes a CBS reporter and a Latin American diplomat.
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First hand reports from people who were actually there say that there was no massacre.
In the square itself, maybe, but all eyewitnesses agree that the PLA shot and killed many hundreds of protesters in Beijing during the protests, which had been (until that point) largely peaceful.
So while you at the author of this article might be correct to say that there was no actual massacre in Tiananmen Square itself, there certainly was a massacre going on around it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8057762.stm
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290 comments
Basic image analysis like this should have been done ages ago, but libs don't care about the truth just blind propagandizing
I was honestly so surprised myself when I realized that the supposed most famous picture of the massacre didn't show a single dead body. Just makes you think about how easily can falsehood be used for propaganda.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
the Tiananmen Square Bicycle Massacre
I believe there's actually video footage of tank man climbing up on the tank, conversing with the tank commander, and then getting down and walking away.
I'm told that many people were lying prone because there was machine gun fire from the battle between the PLA and the insurgents several blocks away.
You don't get it! Deng flattened all the people with his fat cheeks, then inflated everyone back up, then cleaned up the blood and viscera but not the bodies!
You joke but there is a BBC article that literally claims that someone saw dead bodies of the protestors beinng churned and sent down the gutter or something like that.