Programming @programming.dev ruffsl @programming.dev 10 mo. ago

Everything about TOML format - Orchard Dweller

50 comments

TOML and YAML both have the problem that if you receive an incomplete document, there's a decent chance you can't tell. JSON doesn't have that because of the closing curly.
- That's not a problem of a format and should be handled by transport or storage.
  
  It very much is an aspect of the format. You may deem it unimportant, but it's a feature that is missing from toml and yaml.
  
  What about processes that terminate before writing the whole thing? You can't protect against everything. Blame other processes all you want but the language spec allows for confusion.
- Doesn't YAML have a (seldom used) feature of a start and end of document marker? The "YAML frontmatter" that a few markdown documents have, uses this.
- On the other hand, I hate that with JSON you can only store one document per file.
  
  Some programs allow you to omit the outside braces, others require it.
  
  But I do hate toml, and I don’t much like yaml either (why are there like 8 whitespace permutations?!)
  
  What's wrong with TOML? I personally think it's great for configuration purposes.
- Good point, I'd been interested in using toml
Every time I have reached for TOML I have ended up using JSON. The first reason is that Python standard library can read but not write TOML, which is generally useless for me. The second reason is TOML does not add any benefit over JSON. It’s not that much easier to read and IMO JSON is easier to write by hand because the syntax rules are completely obvious.
- TOML is mainly for humans to write, certainly not a good choice if you're programmatically writing files - comments and formatting would be lost.
  
  It all depends on the library you use. Rust has you covered with toml_edit. It is what is used for all the cargo commands editing the Cargo.toml file.
  
  Agreed. Except that it’s not easier to write imo
I really don't understand why people still insist on prohibiting trailing commas anywhere. The syntax is interesting but it looks like defining an array of objects would be needlessly difficult. I think the double square bracket syntax is far too easy to confuse.
- but... trailing commas are ok in TOML
  
  edit 1: I now see the caveat of an inline table - though trailing commas are not that useful for an inline list of values anyways
  
  edit 2: they're changing this for TOML 1.1: https://github.com/toml-lang/toml/issues/516 .
  
  The double square bracket is for an array of tables. A regular array looks "normal": https://toml.io/en/v1.0.0#array
I like the syntax so much, but I'm so missing variables like the ones in ConfigParser's .ini format, I wish there was a good format where they're actually standard
The code link is cut off for me
- https://github.com/orcharddweller/toml-to-json
Just gonna throw out HJSON as another alternative: https://hjson.github.io/

I thinks a great idea but I have never seen it used in the wild, unforunately.
I’ll never understand why we don’t just use s-expressions.
Why would one pick toml over yaml?
- Xkcd 927?
  
  Also yaml is ugly as hell and I'm okay avoiding it.
  
  What?
  
  It's simple and readable. You literally put somebody that has never coded in their life, show them the YAML file and they will probably get it. Worked both with my boss and my girlfriend.
  
  In Toml there are too many ways to do the same thing, which I don't like. Also unless you know it deeply, you have no idea how the underlying data structure is going to look.
  
  Yaml is already pretty popular, so I don't think 927 applies here. It's actually more common in newer projects than toml.
  
  Which begs the question, should I go with the flow or is there good reason to go with toml?
- Perhaps they're Norwegian.
- Significant whitespace is the devil's play thing.
- XML < YAML < TOML < possibly others
  
  noyaml.com

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