1y ago

Laptop companies: which one?

Hello fellows,

I'm currently looking in 13-14" laptops with no immediate needs for one but just because it's exciting. I love my Dell XPS but I feel I should support companies with which I share more common views. I could make the effort to go a with a less attractive look (especially for bezels) but I don't want to go wrong with hardware so what are your thoughts on Framework, Starlab, Purism, and System76? I'll be running Arch and I tend to have a preference for Framework for now.

Do you have feedback (positive and negative) to share on any of these companies?

Thanks for the knowledge you'll bring me. That'll be extremely useful when time comes to go with a new machine.

Update 1: Still wonderful to be part of such a great community. Thanks for all the great feedback (looking for more :) ).
So far everyone is standing behind Framework. Anyone with a less positive experience or who would like to speak for the other companies?

Update 2: Thank you fellows for the time you've spent to share your honest feedback! I didn't want to influence your inputs but you all confirmed the Framework picture I had in mind. It's a piece of mind to read real world experience so thanks again. I was surprised to not see the system76 community speaks louder. Anyway, when time comes I will (virtually) push Framework shop's door.

129 comments

I have a framework, pretty happy with it - Arch installed without any hitches and runs well. Only downside is how long it took to go from deposit to actually paying/shipping.
- I've been wanting a Framework so bad. When I start working again (which should be soon), I'm going to save up for one.
  
  The modularity, repairability, and price for specs are what attracts me compared to the other companies mentioned in this post.
- I love my Framework. It may not feel as polished physically as the XPS. If you can find one in the wild to touch and try, I would recommend doing so.
  
  They're unfortunately harder to find in the wild than pokemons 😂 Have you experienced long delivery time as mentioned above?
- How long have you been waiting? Was it during the pandemic (when everyone was using this as an excuse)? Do you know if it seems to be a current issue?
  
  Ordered on August 2nd, Shipped November 17th of 2023
- Will not touch if they don't support Coreboot/Libreboot (they have the profit margin to do it)

I currently have a System76 laptop, and sincerely regret my purchase. When I purchased it, the Framework was not out yet - I wanted to support a company that supports right-to-repair, and figured since they controlled the hardware, firmware, and software (Pop!_OS), it would be a good, stable experience. It has not been, and support has generally been poor. I know other people have had better experiences than I have, but personally, I won't be buying from them again.
I haven't personally used Purism, but former co-workers spoke really poorly of them. They were trying to buy a big batch for work, and said the build quality was awful. Additionally: https://youtu.be/wKegmu0V75s
- I have one problem with my s76, the usb c port rly sucks. Other than that the laptop runs very well but something so simple shouldnt be an issue imo there are some build quality issues going on..
  
  My usb-c ports can be a little touchy, too. The SD card slot is also really bad - the card has to be positioned perfectly to slide in, or it jams. I'm also upset that the usb-c port can only be used for charging after a full boot. It cannot be used to perform firmware updates, or even to do a ram test. This means day-to-day, usb-c can be used, but I have to keep track of the barrel charger, just in case. This, of course, was not specified on the product details page (nor, I think, that only one of the two usb-c ports could be used for charging - it's possible I overlooked that, but still frustrating on an expensive laptop that lists usb-c charging as a feature).
- Thanks very much for this important feedback. Framework is definitely taking the lead in responses to this post.
- That's actually a bit disappointing to hear. I have always been interested in system76 since their existence, but I've never actually purchased anything from them. Was about to impulse buy a desktop PC from them, but ultimately decided against it because it wasn't really what I needed.
- Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
  https://piped.video/wKegmu0V75s
  Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
  I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.

Framework
- Any more details? ;)
  
  If you drop it and break the frame you can easily replace it.
- Your comment is one of few that really deserves a downvote - but there are at least 30 people that interpret the downvote and upvote function differently. Lucky you. Downvoting should be used to identify poor comment quality, not disagreement. Your comment quality is very poor.

Since it was not mentioned yet: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en
If I would not get so many old computing devices that fulfill my needs (I don’t game on PC/Linux) I guess I’d buy one of those. I live in Switzerland and having a german company for support would be superior to me. And I heard that build quality should be great 😇 😂I guess I’d really like to have one, but as I said, for my needs, my macbookpro5,3 running arch does the job.
- can confirm that tuxedo is great if you are in Europe. It has been my daily driver for 3 years with debian sid and it's great!
- I've had the TUXEDO Pulse 15 from tuxedo computers for about 2 years and it's great.
  
  Nice to hear 😄

Framework. I've run Debian, Fedora and for a while now NixOS, all of which have worked flawlessly.
I did have to replace the heatsink/fan part on mine because the fan bearing started clicking, but I'm sure that was just a first generation product issue (I was one of the first batches). I was glad to be able to do the replacement myself at relatively low cost and the process couldn't have been easier (took about 30 minutes).
My previous machine was a 2013-ish ThinkPad X series and the Framework absolutely blows it out of the water. I'm looking forward to upgrading mine to a Ryzen motherboard sometime in the not so distant future.
- Wonderful to hear! Thanks for bringing one more vote to Framework :)
  
  framework are low in numbers, id check out tuxedo for linux laptops
  
  I'd be careful about buying 'niche' brands like framework and system76.
  You're going to be paying more for inferior hardware, and a lot of the people on these forums don't really understand this.
  Make sure you're getting it because you want it, not because someone else wants it for you.

I have a framework laptop and endeavour os with gnome de. I've had no problems with it. I mainly use it for dev work and web browsing. I enabled gnome muli-gesture (basically the same gestures on a Mac trackpad). I've had no problems with that either.
I'd recommend it.
- Thanks for sharing this feedback. One more point for Framework :)

I'm a fan of refurbished ThinkPads myself, but that is mostly for money reasons. If I had money to blow, I would probably also buy a Framework
- Framework also has an outlet, just in case you want to take a look ;)

I had a System76 10 years ago. The customer service was excellent (several months after receiving my laptop, they sent me a replacement keyboard, because they didn't like the one it shipped with). The build quality was meh, it was a plastic body and didn't hold up well to wear and tear, but it's in my closet and still works. I haven't tried their aluminum bodies.
I now have a Framework. It arrived with trackpad issues, and one of the HDMI adapters didn't work at all. They shipped me replacements for both at no cost to me (except time). It's been nice knowing that any other issues I do have can be replaced piecewise. Also I like that the webcam/mic have physical kill switches.
- Very nice to read this feedback. I'm very sold to Framework after all the great things posted here. An impeccable customer support like the one you describe means a lot about a company.

While I'm yet to do it myself, I would suggest getting a Thinkpad T480 and upgrading its RAM. The reason you want a T480 is because it was the last Thinkpad to have user removable parts. One tip: when using eBay, make sure you filter out the T480s. The T480s is not the same as the T480 since it doesn't have user removable parts.
- Second the T480, it's a great Linux laptop and very upgradable. If possible try to make sure it already has an NVMe or SATA M.2 in the main drive bay. Switching from a 2.5 requires an adapter board and different cables.
  
  Noted.
- Thanks for the tip. I know a lot of people are going for Thinkpads and you're specific recommendation may seem interesting but I'd like to support other companies like the ones I bought from so far (Toshiba, Lenovo, Dell, Vaio, Acer, PB, Razer) and I'd also like to build my own laptop from the start.
  
  Of course. Just remember this when buying a laptop (and by extension a printer): FUCK HP!
  
  I hate Lenovo and I have a Lenovo laptop. The company is shit but the laptops are great. I justify it by buying used.
- What parts other than one stick of RAM aren't upgradeable on the t480s? The processor? I've seen screen swaps, touchpad swaps, keyboard, just about everything. I got one back in the summer, added a stick of RAM to get up to 16gb, it's running at 3200mhz like the other one, and swapped in a new OEM battery. It's been great. I also recently bought a e495 for around 60 bucks, it's thicker and plastic-ey, but also a solid Linux machine running an AMD CPU. Are the newer t14s really that crippled in repairability?
- Lol that's 6 years old!
  
  Yeah it is but it's a pretty capable laptop. I've replaced mine with a Framework 11th gen for my daily use but my T480 is currently hosting 10 VMs for my homelab. It's got the base CPU, i5-8250U, 64GB of RAM and a 4TB SSD and is plenty of horsepower. I really only got the Framework because I was excited about the product and company, not because I was unsatisfied with the T480. I highly recommend it.
  
  I am currently reviving an T410 for my kids. I put an 250 GB SSD inside and the newest Linux Mint and play around with it now. I am still on 4 GB Ram, as I didn’t want to spend the 60€ to upgrade to 8 GB, yet.
  It runs great. I can watch YouTube, browse the web and rip some of my CDs for my NAS and my Kids Audio Players with that sweet internal DVD drive. My guess is 60% of the people would not need more computing power. And this machine was released in 2010.

I've had a framework for 2 years now. It's run fedora, manjaro (arch based) and Debian with no major issues. Manjaro had some problems with KDE and the high DPI screen. Sometimes the scaling was inconsistent between apps. Fedora just works.
Only hardware issue is the battery life is just not that great. And the trackpad doesn't always work property, but I think that was a first generation issue that's been resolved since.
- Thank you for taking time to share this detailed feedback. Very useful!
- Don't know if you plan to use another Arch-based distro on this laptop in the future but I came across this page which has some tips to adjust the Framework 13 including one that may be related to what you mention. They recommend to use 1,5 scaling factor. More details can be found here.
- I'm going to add my +1 for framework, I got the batch 5 original framework 13 with pop os on it and a windows 10 copy on a 250gb expansion card. Its been my main work and play laptop and I enen replaced the main chassis after it got smashed (long story) involving the sidewalk. Anyway I love what framework is doing and the decision has arguably already paid off within these last two years.

They're all aight, but avoid asus like the plague, they don't last very long and have tons of incompatibilities with linux. I've only had mine for 3 years and it already needs a new mobo as the pci lanes for wifi and bluetooth suddenly died
- Thanks but I've already limited my choice to Framework, Starlab, Purism, and System76 as mentioned beside the title of this post.

I would try to avoid any kind of brand-loyalty.
Find something that meets your specifications and try it out for yourself. If it works, keep it. If it doesn't, return it.
Just about every retailer has guaranteed returns for 30 days on computers.
Check out https://old.reddit.com/r/LaptopDeals/ daily until you find something that meets your needs and budget.
- Thanks. That does not not really address my question but I certainly share your view as to not be married to a brand. My personal history and this post question are actually going that route.

- Yeah Lenovo have always been really good for me with Linux. I think if I had the money I'd still go either Framework or System76, but my current laptop is just a mid-range Lenovo Ideapad and it seems to run any Linux thing I chuck at it quite happily.

Framework and ThinkPad have both been a really positive experience.
- Thanks for the feedback.
- Something tells me OP doesn’t share a lot of values with Lenovo!
  I haven’t used Framework, but I’m a fan of most of the ThinkPad line. Not as good as the IBM days, but still a solid product.
- Re your update.
  My framework has been great, I’ve had no issues with it and I’m quite happy. Make sure to go with the matte screen though.
  In saying that, I think I was happier with my thinkpad, but I have no good scientific reason for that, I suspect the nipple and keyboard are a big part of it.

Anyone have some experience with StarLabs?
Ordered a StarFighter like more than half a year ago and am losing confidence in the company...
- Can you expand on that?
  
  Well, the Laptop is still not released. Not sure what I can say more about it :⁠-⁠\

Personally I'm holding out for a laptop based on the snapdragon elite X arm chips coming out later this year. Should be great for battery life (like 28 hours) and very fast. We'll see how the linux support turns out. And also which manufacturers pick it up - would like framework but haven't heard anything about that from them. Lenovo already released a system based on the old snapdragon chip so seems likely they'll release one based on the elite X too.
- Got this one. I like it but support is really rough. Not officially supported but they are helping somewhat the motivated guys getting it upstream. Was advertised with 28 hour battery life as well. You can get 12 hours in linux, less in windows.
  Peformancewise it is flawless. The weight is awesome. Very comfy on the lap. But its almost two years and very much is missing.
  If the new generation doesn't have official linux compatibility I would not recommend buying it on release.
  
  Good to know! An arm laptop for linux makes so much sense to me, but its a rocky start. Managed to brick my pinebook pro so I'm 0 for 1.
- That's interesting... I was not aware of that. Another more element to add to my future decision ^^
- I didn't know about this specifically, but I'm holding onto my 2017 ThinkPad until I can buy an Arm laptop and run Linux on it.

Novacustom or System76, they actually use open Firmware.
- Novacustom... Never heard of it. The almost insignificant disadvantage I can see so far for Framework is that they don't use open-source boot. Everyone so far stand behind Framework. How would you sell me on System76 or Novacustom?
  
  Framework tried Coreboot, has problems and gave up. When buying a Laptop with coreboot you support open Firmware Development for all CPUs, many board generations etc.
  Just look at 3mdeb's Dasharo guide. Its nearly as secure as Heads, on a modern Laptop!

If you're willing to import, tuxedo computers is another great choice. I can personally vouch for framework but I'd caution if you're looking for the 16, it'll be a bit before they're available. 13ish batches pre-ordered, with batch one shipping in a few weeks, it may take quite a bit to get. The 13 though is in stock and shouldn't take too long to recieve
Edit: oh sorry, 13 inch is your preference. I'd strongly vouch for framework. I'd also say stay away from purism due to their scummy history on the phone if you care about that.
- Thanks. TBH Purism is currently at the bottom (out) of my list based on what I've read but I've put it here to collect any feedback that would change my mind. A friend of mine has a not that good experience with Tuxedo hardware. But this is a sample 1 and I've read a lot of good stuff about them as well so...
- Do you have any links for the bad marks on Purism?
  
  Sure do, though not for all the claims I'll make here as that was from me obsessively watching the purism forumns and reddit over the 5 or so years this was going on. They promised a phone which most people didn't get for five years. When it shipped the specs were not great especially for the already pricy cost they had it at. This, after quite heavily suggesting they were nearly good to go. When it came close to the end of waiting, they added a second option (no phones were in hands yet) to upgrade their order, at a cost, to skip the line and get it quicker. Suggesting that if it didn't sell the company couldn't ship the original either after taking money both from a crowdfunding campaign and their site. Though a few were eventually able to refund, they sneakily changed their policy to include "no refunds" when at time of purchase they stated clearly refunds would be available at request. There's also been an issue with their laptops which were advertised as fully FOSS, etirely non-proprietary before eventually shipping with some proprietary software. All around, their customer service is terrible and their responces to allagations and critisism has been childish threats and legal attacks. All around bad group.
  here's some blog posts and an article:
  https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-1 (read all 3 parts)
  https://anarc.at/blog/2020-07-13-not-recommending-purism/
  https://www.pcworld.com/article/422917/why-linux-enthusiasts-are-arguing-over-purisms-sleek-idealistic-librem-laptops.html
  Here's Luis Rossman (Not always correct on what he reports, but by my memory quite good here):
  Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IjUryQOlgk
  Piped - https://piped.adminforge.de/watch?v=-IjUryQOlgk
  Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKegmu0V75s
  Piped - https://piped.adminforge.de/watch?v=wKegmu0V75s

Framework
- Any more details to share?
  
  My favorite drink is water.
  
  His accent is Lithuanian.

Another happy Framework user here. I have 2 first gens in my immediate family and 2 second gens among my friends. All run Ubuntu LTS. No one is complaining. I've already replaced my bottom chassis because I destroyed it during a bad mishap. Ordering was easy, the part was inexpensive, the replacement was straightforward. A Dell XPS perhaps feels a bit better made, but then it doesn't say Made in Taiwan on the bottom so there's that. 😅
On the other hand System76 is building a new open source desktop environment in a sane programming language... 🤔 If COSMIC desktop turns out great and I end up using it, I'll probably throw a couple of hundred their way in lieu of buy their laptop.
- Thanks for a nice feedback. One more vote for Framework ;)
  I don't use a DE, so this would not make me go with them. Also, I'll use Arch anyway, not PopOS.
  
  Oh I now remembered that mine developed a problem with one of the USB ports, not a cartridge but the host port. Framework sent me a new board. I replaced it easily and sent the bad one to them.

Weirdly, my (five year old) Microsoft Surface runs Ubuntu perfectly. (Edit to clarify, after some initial hassle.)
I'm eying a Framework 16 next.
Edit: To clarify, I would not recommend purchasing a Microsoft Surface to put Linux on it. As others have pointed out, it's not the smoothest setup experience.
If anyone already has a Surface and wants to extend it's life with Linux, that I recommend wholeheartedly. With the disclaimer that there was some weird nerdy deep-dive extra setup needed.
- Certain surface models run linux fine, but I wouldn't recommended it as a linux laptop as it requires solving several issues before you get a working computer.
  
  That is a terrific point!
- I have a 6 year old Dell laptop and was hoping Linux would make it snappier. Ubuntu ran the best on it of the distros I tried, but it still had lag issues that I didn't experience in Windows. I was able to to troubleshoot some other issues I had to get everything running mostly pretty good, but not that one.
  I feel like if you want to go the laptop route, it makes a bit more sense to buy something officially supported.
  
  I feel like if you want to go the laptop route, it makes a bit more sense to buy something officially supported.
  Agreed! I've had very similar experiences with trying to run Linux on Laptops.
  With my Surface Go, I was desperate to get it back into a useable state, and I had a surprisinly easy time. Largely thanks to the Linux on Surface Go hobbyists I found guidance from.
  But when buying a new laptop, I would one of the many better options in this thread, every time.

I always recommend older (2-3 years behind) thinkpads and Dell latitudes. Most people don't need latest and greatest, far more bang for you buck, and they're relatively easy to repair.
Plus, it doesn't hurt to keep a perfectly good machine out of a landfill.

I haven't loved a laptop like my 13 inch Framework since my Mac in 2004.
You can run Pop OS on it if you.like.

@wwwgem I've been extremely pleased with @tuxedocomputers in both product quality and support. Next laptop will assuredly be another from them.

Framework and System76 are both pretty good and user-serviceable. I know System76's customer service is particularly really good.
- Looks like Framework receives a ton of support. System76 has been surprisingly almost not mentioned and not always in the best terms.
  Thanks for your feedback!

Gnu/Linux...

129 comments