Will we look back at today's "go green" initiatives as stupid and inadequate?
When I was in elementary school, the cafeteria switched to disposable plastic trays because the paper ones hurt trees. Stupid, I know... but are today's initiatives any better?
A lot of the initiatives are ineffective by design because the real goal is to give the consumers agency over the problem. Corporations have known that individual effort is a drop in the bucket but by framing the problem as not not a "corporate" problem but a "society" problem, they can keep not fixing it, for profit.
BP created the concept of a carbon footprint to make customers feel responsible for climate change. The reality is that consumer choices make no difference in the face of China building a dozen new giant coal power plants each year. This needs to be tackled diplomatically, and nations need to be willing to negotiate with much more force. China emits more than double the CO2 of the U.S. That’s just CO2. There’s PFAS, methane, plastics, and hundreds of others pollutants. They’re destroying whole oceans with their huge bottom-trawling fishing fleets. It’s time we get serious about tackling the major polluters first.
A corporate problem and a societal problem are two sides of the same coin. Corporations don't make money in isolation, they make money because they sell things that (directly or ultimately) are bought by consumers.
You could choose to imagine a scenario where the CEOs of Shell, BP, ExxonMobil, etc just voluntarily decide to stop extracting oil overnight, and think that would be more impactful than billions of individual consumers slashing their demand for carbon-intensive products and fuels. But if the consumers don't change their behaviour and continue to demand this stuff, other companies would just step in to fill the gap, takeover the old oil fields, etc.
The sustainable way to change corporate behaviour is through changing their end-consumers' behaviour - i.e. if end-consumers stop directly buying carbon-intensive products and stop buying from carbon-intensive companies.
Corps frame it as an individualist problem because they don't want regulation, which is really the only viable way to attack the problem (and regulations needs to be backed by treaties with teeth since it is a global problem).
You can't expect every consumer to research every product and service they buy to make sure these products were made with an acceptable footprint. And if low-footprint products/services are more expensive or somehow not quite as good, there will be a financial incentive to use higher footprint products (if individuals acted "rationally," this is what they would do).
I think there is two important points that you haven't considered:
Pretty much. Only large scale solutions will have any chance of working. A lot of it implies stuff like recycling or figure out ways of turning waste into something non-harmful. So anything you see on an individual level is pretty much guaranteed to be pointless.
Those companies pollute to produce goods and services that individuals buy.
What does holding corporations accountable look like if not refusing to give them our money while advocating for regulation?
Throwing your hands in the air, doing nothing to change your destructive habits and just saying "but corporations" isn't gonna help anything.
People boycotting certain products only really works if an alternative is available and attainable, or the demand is elastic.
For example, if I go to any grocery store, all the pasta, rice, buckwheat, bread and other staples are packaged into single-use plastic, as are hygiene products like toothpaste and shampoo. I have no choice but to be part of the plastic waste problem since there is no alternative and the demand for food is not elastic—I literally can't go without food and basic hygiene.
But I can and will avoid buying problematic products like teflon cookware, fast fashion, ICE vehicles, tech products with severe privacy/ownership/repairability issues since there are alternatives available and if not, I can go without since eg Alexa smart speakers are not essential for life.
Hence, we need to hold companies, whose products are problematic while not having alternatives and that are essential for life, responsible and force them to change to less problematic practices. In short, eg single-use plastics should be regulated out of existence wherever possible.
And for products that have better alternatives, we need to raise awareness about them and raise their social acceptance/desirability (make them cool). Plus we need to increase their availability and attainability—what use of is an ethical alternative product if it's not easily available in my country or if the price is not affordable to everyone who can afford the "normal" version?
I think the point is not that the individual should abandon efforts to modify their own habits. The point is that we should also be focusing just as much if not more energy on efforts to regulate and/or change industries that are responsible for more emissions by orders of magnitude. Some small but significant subset of the population going vegan, buying electric cars, or biking to work isn't going to offset the biggest offenders.
The biggest offenders are fighting tooth and nail to be as profitable as possible at literally any cost. You can be damn sure that if what they produce becomes less desirable in one industry, they will try their hardest to get picked up in some other industry. They'll have scientists finding some way to be useful somewhere and demonstrating it with research and lobbyists that will then get the government to mandate/subsidize it so that they make as much money as possible.
I've personally tried to "vote with my wallet" but industries have found ways to green-wash their products to give the impression that choosing their products would be the responsible choice when in reality it is not. Ensuring that your spending only goes to companies making an honest effort to do all they can to be carbon neutral or environmentally friendly is more than a full time job at this point. The only way is to ensure that governing bodies dictate the behavior of these organizations and even individuals so that it is no longer up to the organization/individual to "do the right thing".
Without proactive, strong government intervention we will be well, well, well beyond the point of no return by the time "voting with our wallets" and "modifying our behaviors" changes industries and society enough to have a significant impact.
That's not really what OP is saying though? They're talking about corporate efforts to make it seems like the consumers are the problem, not them, and many are still falling for it. As long as the awareness of this is not raised and more people aren't pointing fingers at the corporates the whole don't buy their product is never going to be effective, same for advocating for regulations (rather, especially the regulations). You're assuming everyone knows the root of the problem already, but that's just not the case here.
This is a frustrating kind of defeatist attitiude I'm finding is getting more and more common.
It comes from a place of unwillingness for personal and habitual change. It's hard to accept that we all have to change our lifestyles and accept that how we're living is going to have to change. That there is exists some scenario whereby we all continue living exactly how we're doing now with the same consumer behaviour and expect a bit of regulations to change everything. Or delay changing until after these regulations are in place, when in reality BOTH needs to happen.
What's the point in sitting on your ass complaining about the behaviours of other individuals and organisations when the only thing you have direct control over is your life.
The embarrassing thing will be that we did nothing to limit private jets.
If everyone but world leaders had to fly with us poor's, wed be doing a hell of a lot better than we are.
We never address the easy, large targets because those targets are rich people and they pay for it to not be addressed.
It's embarrassing that we have an Internet and are unable to come together to fight such a small group of people.
Private jets are a negligible amount of emissions. ALL air travel makes up just 2% of emissions.
Honestly, if that was the only embarrassing thing, we'd be golden.
air travel is negligible.
the real killer is the animal industry and traffic.
and quitting animal consumption is a lot easier than not driving.
I think your final statement is backwards. The world was car-free not very long ago in the grand scheme of things. We’ve never been fully vegan. I agree we should eat fewer animal products as well as driving less, but just because it was easier for you doesn’t mean it’ll be easier for society at large.
This is one of the reasons Elon is destroying the bird - to ruin our internet and its ability to aid collective action.
Do not let perfection get in the way of progress.
The vast majority of these initiatives are just pointless "greenwashing".
I gave up hope when I learned that the blue and green recycle bins in my area are really only there to make the consumer feel better about how much we waste as a society. A lot of the stuff we put in those bins still just winds up in a landfill.
Also incineration as "energy recycling" - https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/waste-energy-controversial-power-generation-incineration
FYI this is actually a very green source of energy production. Virtually all pollutants are contained within the facility, and all that’s left are the constituent elements which are far easier and cleaner to dispose of than raw waste.
One thing not working like it should doesn't make your destructive habits less destructive.
Some are already being questioned as inadequate. Carbon offsets often times don't offset much carbon at all. Some of that is on purpose and are just people trying to make a quick buck, but some are actual humanitarian efforts that didn't take into account all factors and end up being much less effective than initially thought.
Use them in my industry, or rather are starting to, and this is apparent.
John Oliver has a segment on carbon offsets and, yeah, they sound like typical cash grabs under the guise of "green" Vid: https://youtu.be/6p8zAbFKpW0
Today's initiatives are theater.
100 companies are responsible for 71% of the worlds emissions. The rest is also mainly companies. The idea of a carbon footprint is propaganda invented by BP (this sounds like a conspiracy but I swear it's true, look it up). Before anything you personally can accomplish can make any difference, we would first have to significantly change society.
It's just not true that we can't make a difference though - it's just easier for people to think that. Even if corporations, China, people on private jets etc. are damaging Earth and its inhabitants, our habits still make a difference also. You know, we can do what we can do personally at the same time as voting, campaigning and protesting for the change we can't control.
There is no sustainable consumption under capitalism. Most have already cut down on their personal emissions, less meat, less flying. Good luck on trying to overcome the system by participating in it.
What can help is direct action and direct democracy, building resilience in your community. Which is hard.
You got any source on that?
Personally, we can save a bit of resources, provide tiny relieve spots for a wild animals, insects, etc. Its a fact. Physical reality. Just because its not enough by itself, does not mean, we should not do that.
Naturally, not doing anything on a personal level, because "its not enough" is a very much approved way of living by the corporations. Having unhappy, consuming population? Chief's kiss.
However.. its not a good thing, when tiniest acts in the right direction demotivate people to do more. "I am doing my part!" - yes, that is nice, but we need more.
Those companies produce the goods WE buy. If we didn't buy them, the emissions wouldn't be accounted to that company that sells you the good. Oil, electricity or something else that you use.
Anyways, being fatalist about all that gets us nowhere.
Here's what you need to do:
Or that would have been it if we still had time to prevent catastrophic climate change. We can still try but I'm fairly certain we missed the train and I wish nothing else but me being wrong. I'm still vegan tho and use bicycle.
About footprints. William Rees wrote about ecological footprint in 1992 and carbon footprint was commonly used after 2000. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/095624789200400212
Those companies pollute to produce goods and services that individuals buy.
What does holding corporations accountable look like if not refusing to give them our money while advocating for regulation?
Individual change is changing society.
Throwing your hands in the air, doing nothing to change your destructive habits and just saying "but corporations" isn't gonna help anything.
Speak for yourself, I'm peeing in the shower.
Yes, we're basically doing nothing. Then we'll run around like headless chicken when things will start to get really bad. And when the mass deaths will start, well, we'll start acting, by killing each other.
We have a small standing shower, so I started turning the water off when soaping up, instead of aiming the shower head away. Much more room, easier, and saving a ton of water. I pee in there too.
While they have close to no value from practical standpoint, they do allow to start the conversation about the seriousness of climate issues.
Literally everything that isn't investing in Nuclear Fusion and electrification.
I find it astonishing that in 2023, when renewables are more ubiquitous and far cheaper than nuclear, there are still people who would advocate for an technological and societal inferior solution.
I'm not opposed to renewables at all, the progress in solar power has been awesome.
But I think the scalability is hard, both in providing a reliable baseload, and also producing all of the solar panels for example. I don't think it's insurmountable though.
Ideally we use all of them - we need more electricity than ever. "Degrowth" is the real enemy.
Anything that's safe to advocate for in a public forum is inadequate.
I think it’s safe to say the whole climate change episode will go down as this era’s “How could they be so stupid or bad like that?!” Like Germans during the Nazis, slave owners in the US, medieval superstitions during the plague etc. All of it will become a lesson in what not to do and how not to think.
Collectively our generation will be marked as that which had all the means and privileges one could hope for but the foresight and wisdom of bricks.
The paper vs plastic thing sucks because both are bad. Paper needs trees to be cut down and single use plastics are horrible for the environment
I mean, in theory, dumping paper into a landfill is a carbon sink
Which is essentially what happened to create coal in the first place, kinda sorta.
At least paper can be produced through sustainable farming practices and any waste is almost entirely biodegradable.
But I do agree that the debate sucks. What we should really be doing is forcing corporations and governments to 1. Adhere to very strict sustainability levels and 2. Pay for clean up efforts out of the salaries of their board of directors. Any corporation that declares a profit or gives a bonus to someone in managment without meating their sustainability requirements results in large fines for the company as well as every individual member of the board of directors. And anyone who claims they can't pay within 12 months is given jail time and stripped of all assets instead.
Sounds harsh, sure. But till we start holding them accountable, it's not going to matter how many people are using reusable plastic shopping bags or soggy paper straws. It's not going to make any difference
Ha, look at this optimist who thinks there'll be people in the future.
I've learned that we're doing an even poor job of handling recyclables, the very thing we're beaten over the head with to be responsible about.
By oil companies. They pushed the plastic recycling narrative before it was even feasible to recycle it, all to sell more oil for plastics.
You know that recycling logo with the three arrows? It doesn't even mean that the plastic is recyclable; it simply states what type of plastic the material is made out of.
NPR did a recent investigation in this matter, and less than 5% of recycled plastic, given to your local recycling plant, actually gets recycled.
Not to mention that we didn't even know if our recycling was even recycled. We used to ship it to countries in Asia, burning bunker oil all the way there, and whatever happened to it happened. Out of sight, out of mind, and likely not recycled.
The best thing you can do is not buy disposable plastics. Even other materials that are very recyclable, like aluminum and glass, still needs to be shipped, processed, melted down, and remanufactured to be useful. It's better for the environment, but not anywhere close to net zero.
Not to mention that we didn’t even know if our recycling was even recycled. We used to ship it to countries in Asia, burning bunker oil all the way there, and whatever happened to it happened. Out of sight, out of mind, and likely not recycled.
No need to use the past tense, this is still the case in most cases.
I think most people who want to do something about regulating climate change to prevent creating an uninhabitable world already think today's measures are stupid and inadequate. People won't be thinking much of anything in the future when we're all dead.
It's a difficult topic, those of us already engaged with the problem are already aware that the current solutions are inadequate, but, every year we are making improvements.
Is that going to be enough? It depends on what you define as enough. I'd describe myself as short term pessimist but long term optimist.
By that I mean, short term there are far too many vested interests (stranded capital, the income of various nation states, nationalism in general, the 8 hour day, our built environment and the car centric nature of its design) to do the sort of immediate changes that we needed to have averted this problem. We needed to have started meaningfully pursuing this in the 70s, not the 2010s.
But that shouldn't take away from the fact that the ever increasing rollout of renewable energy generation is better than continuing to use coal and gas. Every ton of CO2 we don't emit is a ton we don't have to get rid of later. That is as true today was it was 50 years ago, or 50 years in the future.
Long term, I'm optimistic that humans will continue to develop new technologies and the political and economic will shifts to meaningfully tackle climate change and we ultimately will survive, but I am expecting billions to die explicitly due to climate change - ie from floods, droughts, famine, war caused by the preceeding, internment of fleeing refugees, etc - in the interim. I won't be surprised if towards the end of my life terms like ecocide start to shift to mean genocide of humans via negligent climate policies, eg when Bangladesh goes under water.
The next 100 years is going to be a brutal mix of exciting technological breakthroughs, coupled with soul crushing deaths of people in countries who predominantly did very little to cause the problem.
There won't be a "we" to look back on them, so I wouldn't worry about it.
Sure but have you tried goin grink?
Definitely inadequate. Most of the go green stuff has been carefully manufactured by the worst polluters pass the buck. However, in order to actually make a real difference, people's lives will have to change. We will have to drive less, eat less beef, and reduce our consumption in general.
If a large percentage of people can't even utilize resuable bags for their groceries we're already screwed. So much apathy and people not really committed to take even the smallest of steps to help our environment.
I'd say that blaming individuals for fundamental architecture of our society is the essence of the problem we have.
Whatever is being done, it isn't enough. Lots of countries are lying about their carbon emissions and it's basically the worst it's ever been. Quick intro video
If Captain Planet was real, he would be extremely disappointed with all of us.
Planetina from Rick and Morty would just straight up murder the biggest offenders.
On a note, what the heck was up with "heart"? You got these 4 badass elemental powers coming together to form this awesome super hero and then just...heart? Never sat right with me when I was a kid.
Only to realise it's the most busted ability of the bunch when you grow up.
Mind control beats everyone
Play nice in this thread. It's a touchy subject.
Rule 1
Yes, go vegan and stop driving if you actually want to change your impact.
Or drive electric, and minimise your meat consumption - this is much more feasible.
I don't drive and live in one of the cities with the best public transportation in the world, but am still looking to get a car because public transport is still terrible. E.g. if you need to pick up or return something, or to take one of my friends to work who works outside the city and at night.
A car is required to live freely, otherwise you're just trapped in cities.
The average British person emits 76 times more CO2 than the offset of one person going vegan for life. Even if everyone on the planet went vegan today, forever, their sacrifice would be undone by the number of new babies born in a single year, globally. Veganism isn’t going to solve climate change. It’s not even going to make a dent. We should be focusing on practical, real measures to reduce global CO2 output. For example, the move from coal to LNG halves CO2 output. This transition alone is an order of magnitude more impactful than the entire world going vegan for life. If you care about climate change you’ll invest your limited time and energy where it counts.
You can easily be vegan while advocating for other change like less coal.