Modern apartheid.
Modern apartheid.
134 comments
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We can criticize Israel, while condemning Hamas terrorists
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And we can make aid to Israel contingent on future improvements on the treatment of Palestinians.
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(And prosecute the IDF and Israeli state in international Court for crimes against humanity)
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I like this, we should do this, for sure. Nobody can claim it's unfair.
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At this point, I would argue that Israel has done more for Hamas PR and popularity than anything in the last 20 years.
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Blame the British and the holy scrolls.
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the same israel which offered countless peace offers to the Palestinians(which promptly rejected them) or the same israel that literally pulled out of gaza entirely leaving them the full option to make a thriving city state like Singapore, but instead they decided to buy guns and rockets and make everyone's life miserable?
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I mean, I suppose if you ignore all history up until like a few weeks ago that makes sense.
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Do you think if Hamas dissappear tomorrow, those who throw garbage will stop?
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The reverse. If the garbage throwers stopped, if the Israeli state ensured that Palestinians were treated humanely and were ensured civil rights (say in accordance with the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights) then Palestinians would have no need for revolutionary organizations like Hamas or Hezbollah. But so long as the Israeli state disregards the suffering of Palestinians, so long as Israelis are allowed to commit violence against Palestinians, so long as the IDF seeks to massacre Palestinians, there will be need for militants to fight against them, and so Hamas and Hezbollah will find cause and find recruits among the friends and family slain in Israel's name.
The thing is we all know this. This is COIN 101 material from two to four centuries ago. And short of the threat of nuclear holocaust, humans historically are eager to hate more than they are willing to do what is right to create and preserve peace. Netanyahu and the IDF have demonstrated to be no different, even when the US warned them of its own hard-learned lessons in Fallujah. Gaza is proving to be even worse than was predicted.
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If the elements of Hamas, namely the promising of death to all Israelites from Palestinians disappeared, then relations would improve and yes the garbage would stop. But it would still be a process that takes time to build trust between the people.
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Ted Kaczynski made a lot of really solid points, but bombing people, especially civilians, is wrong.
People still cheer for Luke Skywalker though.
Humans are more tribalistic than rational. They pick sides and justify later.
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We can condemn violence, while recognizing that it didn't come about in a total vacuum as people play it up as to paint Palestinians as evil terrorists.
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Correct. Hamas is an evil terrorist group that slaughters innocent people and also Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people and need to stop, or be stopped. But not by killing random people, because this isn't the bronze age anymore.
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No, seriously - give me a good reason to condemn Hamas. As long as they are the only ones willing to lift a damn finger against a white supremacist settler-colonialist state they will receive no condemnation from me.
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this combined with the orders from IDF that under no circumstances were celebrations or signs of joy allowed when prisoners were returned to their families; fucking ghouls.
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prisoners, why were they prisoners again? oh yea that's right becuase they were literal terrorist
do you want examples? maybe the women who drove with a full gas tank into an israeli border checkpoint near Jerusalem and blew up half her face as well as a police officer's face and chest - asra jabas, look her up
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Calling Israel's apartheid "modern" to me kind of implies that South Africa's apartheid, whose transitional period ended in 1994, was somehow "ancient" or "old-fashioned"... Yeah, you can rest assured that apartheid/segregation always has been far too modern.
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Also South Africa still has massive problems between white and black people. I watched a documentary a few years ago where I black paralympian travelled round South Africa to see how things had changed and he was stunned that black people live in shanty towns outside major cities still, also the guy was shown a rich area with private security patrols and high walled residences and the security kept coming back to look at him, basically not trusting him there.
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Intergenerational poverty can be extremely hard to break out from. It isn't helped by the fact that wealth in this planet is finite with most of it trickling upwards.
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That's because you can't fix the mess caused by capitalism, colonialism, fascism and white supremacism with feel-good liberal fairy tales.
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I was thinking about this recently and it won't happen given the current climate but what Palestinians need is their own Truth and Reconciliation just like South Africans did. Codify that shit.
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Truth and Reconciliation
As a South African I wouldn't recommend it. We essentially allowed all the murderers, torturers and rapists to get off scott free so that "business as usual" - ie, the looting and pillaging of South Africa's mineral resources - wouldn't be disrupted too much.
We literally have gigantic gaps in our history because the Nat regime was allowed to perpetrate one of the largest orgies of evidence destruction in known history while the TRC wasn't even allowed to subpoena people to testify about anything - and now we still sit with a white population that sees no reason to confront what was done in their name and are pretty much still just as white supremacist as their grandparents were.
It's only a solution to the liberal types that want to sell feel-good propaganda and little else.
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I have a 2200 AMD Sempron running windows XP for nostalgia. This computer is by no means a modern PC. No one in their right mind would consider it modern. Yet it was originally manufactured after 1994. By your logic, it is a modern PC.
Something can be "not-modern" without being ancient.
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I mean, if your measure of modernity is just how good home computers were back then, rather than that any substantial number of people had home computers at all, then of course 1994 is going to seem non-modern.
I guess I have a skewed perception of how long ago 1994 was, though, because 1995 was when my parents first came into contact with each other from opposite sides of the globe, through the ol' information superhighway. For me that makes 1994 seem incredibly recent, even if it was nearly 30 years ago and a lot has changed since then. The '90s were this whole decade of pop culture, technology, and political and social change whose shadow I grew up in, basically the beginning of what I would consider in most contexts to be the "modern day". But if I had actually been alive and conscious at the time, then maybe I would be more practically aware of the differences between then and now, and hesitate to call it "modern".
But modernity always is relative. If I were talking specifically about computers, then obviously even a computer from as recently as 2008 would really be stretching the definition of "modern". But then in another context I might even say that something that happened in 1898 would've been "recent", though I wouldn't necessarily refer to that as "modern" per se.
Put another way, an apparent slim majority of the world's population (but not of South Africa's population) was alive when Nelson Mandela took office. Probably a lot of them were infants or small children at the time, but still: even for the people who weren't alive at that time, or who were too young to really remember it personally, there are so many people who were very alive and very conscious at the time, that everyone's bound to know a good few. My mom attended anti-apartheid protests when she was in college, for instance. Mandela himself was president until 1999, and only died in 2013, which it's hard to believe was already ten years ago.
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Zionists: "they Made us do it!"
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Opposing Israel is not the action of a neo-nazi, it is the action of someone who is disgusted by Nazis.
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The situation is being framed as the false dichotomy of "Pro-Israel" or "Pro-Palestine" when the real distinction is "Pro-Israel" or "Pro human rights and international law".
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We simply cannot abide by the Israeli idea that the Israelites are a people so much better than anyone else, that they are allowed to dictate who is just and who is not period They have become the very Nazis that persecuted the Jews back in the 40s
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so Palestine is pro human rights and international law???? need i remind you of the failed rocket launch (aimed at israeli civilians) that misfired, hit and killed many Palestinians at the hospital in gaza??
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Garbage and rocks. Don't forget rocks
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But I've been informed by a bunch of friendly folks from reddit that throwing rocks is a highly dangerous major criminal offense, trialed by the military, in Israel.
/s
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Disgusting. Imagine you are walking around minding your business and a Zionist throws his trash on your head.
Israel treats Palestinians worse than animals.
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https://youtu.be/aEdGcej-6D0?t=8m56s
Fuck israel. All my homies hate israel
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What do the palestinians throw back?
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Nah fuck this shit. Murdering people who were celebrating love and music is inexcusable. I have so much affection for the electronic music scene and the peace and acceptance it promotes. A lot of those people were probably tripping on psychedelics. What a horrific way to go. Fuck Hamas.
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According to google, the population of Hebron is about 215,000 of which approximately 600 are jews. This post is a lie.
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This comment below has some good context and explains why the comment above is disinformation:
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Folks please, please go and google "Jewish population of hebron". You are being fed lies and you're eating it all up because you really want to cheer for the underdog.
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I found the original source of the photo: It is an article by "The New Yorker" from 2019 that confirms and explains the situation.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/a-guided-tour-of-hebron-from-two-sides-of-the-occupation
[...] Hebron, in an area where about thirty thousand Palestinians—a fraction of the number who used to live here—live under direct Israeli military rule, which protects fewer than a thousand Israeli settlers. This part of the city is freely accessible to Israeli citizens and foreigners, but most Palestinians can enter only if they’re residents.
[...]
For a second it felt like we were in a covered market, but this was because the street is fenced in from the top, with a sort of wire net intended to protect the Palestinian traders and their customers from rocks, bottles, and trash thrown by Israeli settlers who live on the street just above. Amro pointed at metal sheeting placed over a section of the net; it is meant to guard against acid that settlers pour down, to destroy the goods sold here.
[...]
In 1997, as part of the Oslo peace process, Israel and the Palestinian Authority drew a line splitting Hebron in two. The area designated as H-1 is controlled by the Palestinian Authority; in H-2, the Palestinian Authority has civil administration over Palestinian residents and the Israeli military controls everything else. H-1 is far larger, and in the past two years its population has roughly doubled, while H-2’s has dwindled because settler violence and I.D.F. restrictions have made life unbearable for Palestinians. But H-2 contains the city’s historic center, its most popular square, and its wholesale, vegetable, spice, and other markets—all of them now hollowed out. The market street through which Amro leads his tour hits a dead end at the border between H-1 and H-2. Here, though, the border is also vertical: the market street is in H-1; the street directly above is in H-2. This is why the protective net and metal sheeting are necessary.
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I literally googled that and this was the top result.
"Hebron is home to approximately 200,000 Palestinians, as well as 700 or so Jewish settlers. However, 20 percent of the city is under direct Israeli control, and Palestinians living in it, or passing through it, are subjected to checkpoints and a ban from travelling on several main streets, unlike the Jewish settlers."
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Yes! Exactly! There are 200 thousand people living in hebron and Seven Hundred of them are Jews. Who do you think lives in a ghetto there? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these settlers aren't assholes who may throw trash or rocks, I'm sure many other cities have communities of assholes. But making this out to be apartheid?! Come on.
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Article from 2021. Al Monitor is a left center leaning Arabic News paper with High Credibility and High factual reporting. See the following link: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/al-monitor/
Please provide your counter proof.
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Oh, look... the hasbara has finally shown up.
What's the matter... slow day at the shill farm?
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no you don't understand! The 600 Jews in Hebron rule with an iron fist over the 215,000 arabs!
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Israel has a right to defend itself.
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I'm sure they have a right to throw garbage at random civilians
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Yeah, those dead babies were coming right at them.
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There were secret Hamas tunnels under those babies!
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Anyone has a right to defend themselves. Yet there is a very fine line between self defense and aggression.
If you punch the lights out to some idiot that is threatning you, you're defending yourself.
If the other guy drops to the ground and you kick their teeth out and then go find their family to do the same to them, that is aggression.
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Eek a hospital get it!
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Did the premature babies being kept alive with tin foil after the attack condem Hamas?
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Palestine has a right to defend itself.
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I don't get the point of trotting out this old chestnut. Is anyone arguing that Israel does not have the right to defend itself?
No. The concern is the manner and proportionality of the defense. Both of which are barbaric and over the top.
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Palestinian civilians do not, then?
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Israel is the agressor
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Fuck Israel.
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Lol and this is self defense how?
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134 comments
Israel is a product of European Colonization. It predates WW1 and WW2. After learning more about it, IMO it shouldn't exist as it does today.
Jews and Christians and Muslims lived in the area since the religions were invented, we don't need a European colony to still exist.
Good luck fitting it all back in the box
Under strict Authoritarian Muslim rule. The Jews and Christians didn't exactly have a lot of power in the area.
A European colony that displaced native folks is basically.. everything.
Muslims are known for their tolerance towards other religions. That's why all around the middle east you have thriving communities of pluralism.
Only a couple generations separate Auschwitz and Al-Shifa. The lesson we can draw from this is that ethnostates will always end in misery
nah, "the lesson to draw was that the Nazis clearly had the right intentions but the wrong targets, tho it was the Jews fault they got captured and killed in concentration camps" ~current Israeli ruling coalition when talking about the victims of the holocaust.
most of the Jews that went and settled in Israel after the Holocaust were primarily from regions that Nazis never occupied, they came to create their ethno-state, ironically they also despise the survivors as failures who didn't fight back, even more ironically most of the survivors of the Holocaust were critics of the Zionists (who could have guessed the victims of fervent nationalism actually had something against that very same thing?).
I think that's the funniest/saddest aspect of all this. My kids are half Jewish. My ex-wife is Jewish so needless to say I am well aware of the complexity of the history surrounding Israel and Palestine.
But damn if Jews have lost the plot.
Agreed, but let's use the term z*onist because there are plenty of Jews who denounce this despicable regime.
Well, some Jews have lost the plot, and certainly Jewish communities are not immune to the sociological conditions that drive people towards segregationist politics and even genocides.
That is to say, we all lost the plot, but we love capitalism and imperialism more than we fear watching society devolve into hate, genocide and warfare.
The IDF took to annihilating Gaza like SWAT in the US to COD gamers in poor communities. If that's not a sign to reconsider our priorities, I don't know what is. But it certainly implies we're still savage apes not ready for the big leagues of civilization and exploration.
Please don't buy into the Israeli narrative that what they're doing represents all of us. I'm a Jew, but I'm not an Israeli, and recognize that Hamas and the Israeli government both suck.
They don't. There's 600 jews in the town of Hebron, population 215,000.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/a-guided-tour-of-hebron-from-two-sides-of-the-occupation
A source for the story. Despite the population imbalance the garbage-throwing (and acid pouring) is apparently true.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted for giving fairly accurate population numbers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebron