1y ago

Transgender players banned from international women’s cricket by ICC

www.theguardian.com Transgender players banned from international women’s cricket by ICC

Transgender players who have been through male puberty will not be permitted to play international women’s cricket under new ICC gender eligibility regulations

The International Cricket Council has become the latest sports body to ban transgender players from the elite women’s game if they have gone through male puberty.

The ICC said it had taken the decision, following an extensive scientific review and nine-month consultation, to “protect the integrity of the international women’s game and the safety of players”.

It joins rugby union, swimming, cycling, athletics and rugby league, who have all gone down a similar path in recent years after citing concerns over fairness or safety.

237 comments

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that not many users on Lemmy follow Cricket or understand it fully. My comment isn’t going to cover if the decision by the ICC is correct (or otherwise) but to provide a little insight into the men and women’s games
Speed / pace is a noticeable difference between the sexes. I don’t believe there are any current female players that consistently bowl pace over 120km/h. In contrast, male pace bowlers generally try to meet a consistent speed of 135km/h for the same role. The upper bounds for men is roughly 160km/h and maybe only one or two pro players globally can do this.
There are enough men’s bowlers who can bowl at 150km/h. At this speed an average batter would find it difficult to see the ball. Arguably batters in baseball receive faster pitches but at 150km/h+ including the ball bouncing makes it incredibly difficult to face.
The batting is also different but it might be harder to explain to a non-cricketing audience why this is.
- To add extra weight to this comment. It is a common tactic to attempt to "bounce" a batter out, which basically means bowling with enough speed at such a short length that it comes towards the body, and especially, the head. If a batter is unprepared, it usually requires getting out of the way because trying to play a shot is likely to end up with you getting out or struck by the ball.
  The ball is much harder and denser than a baseball and even a famous up and coming professional, international, batter died when he failed to get out of the way and was struck in the head.
  Basically, there is a very real safety concern for players when it comes to something like this.
- Cricket is like Blurnsball, right?
  
  it’s slowly becoming that, yeah.
- This isn't about male bowlers though. The physiology of transgender people changes very quickly after starting Hormone Replacement Therapy. Do you have data on transgender women and bowling in cricket? Because data relating to male bowlers is not applicable.

In theory trans women are superwomen and then in reality they're weaker and derpier than the top female athletes and all of this is just a scare tactic because these theories havent played out in the real world at all.
On the sports angle, esports looked like it would finally be the place for me to be a fan because the athletes are relatable to me. But no, they got bought up by the Saudis, so all I get for relatable media is drag queens and furries or whatever.

Just make it third category.
female sports won't get affected
fairness will increase
fans can watch their own "cup of coffee "
possible pretenders will no longer be motivated by easy winning
- It's own category with like 5 people in each sport. Great idea.
  
  What is the alternative though that won't ruin female's sports that was built as part or followup of female's emancipation ?
- This is just a complete non solution to the problem and effectively just ends up with trans people being banned from sports altogether.
  "Trans" sports teams/leagues (whatever that means) can't really exist at the amateur local level anywhere but the biggest citiess due to there being not a lot of trans people, and even less trans people who want to play sports.
  The struggle to even get enough trans guys or trans girls to form a team for football or whatever would be a challenge in and of itself, and then this team would pretty much have to fly across the country (or possibly to a different country altogether) to even play a match.
  This is not a reasonable solution for anyone but the people who want to ban trans people from sports.
  The second issue is that this is just fear mongering and not an actual issue to be solved but that's being argued all over this thread already.
  
  What is your suggestion than?
- Two categories:
  Women
  Open
  Perfectly fair and simple.
  
  It's already the case, most sports allow for women to play in men's leagues... But they don't. And trans women would suffer the same way cis women would in men dominated categories (or would they? Depends on the sport I guess, nobody would complain about trans women in F1 Academy I bet)
  
  women as females or identifier ? Open is males + trans females + trans males ?

My fist thought was "why does the International Criminal Court care"

God I thought it said the international criminal court

Sport is the most boring show on TV by far, and yet the actors are paid insane amounts. The fandom is the most toxic bullshit out there and the show runners encourage it.
Cancel sport already, it's really dumb.

Hej, I‘ve seen quite a few comments using weird expressions to refer to trans women here, so to clarify, a trans woman is not:
a scientific male (trans women are scientifically women)
a biologically born male (Biologically born? Yes. Male? No.)
a biological male (as, usually, biological markers such as anatomy, hormone levels, chromosomes and behavior in trans women are ambiguous)
A trans woman is:
a woman (female) who was assigned male at birth
often, but not always, a person who has gone through testosterone puberty, but identifies as female
Just use the words trans woman and cis woman, it‘s concise, correct and respectful. I‘m not saying that there are no differences between trans women and cis women, but simply that trans women are women. If you disagree with that, go watch ContraPoints or PhilosophyTube.
Consequently, the international cricket council should call it the elite cis women‘s game from now on, that would just be consistent.
- I am still confused. My understanding was that trans people change their gender. This is something I am able to wrap my head around because gender (man/woman) is a human construct anyway and people should have the freedom to choose where they are on that spectrum.
  But isn't sex a genetic thing that can't be changed? If it's the case that a person can choose whether they are male or female then science is going to need new terminology to replace male/female for XY and XX because the words science used to use have been commandeered to mean something more like gender?
  
  In particular when referring to humans, the definition of sex is ambiguous, as is the term “biological male”. And I think this problem is intrinsic: Gender and sex are complicated (with many different markers which may be congruent for many people, but are not for trans and intersex people), and the usefulness of categories depends on context. For example, in a dating context, gender might be a useful category. In a medical context, sex is not a useful category for trans and intersex people: It's not sufficient information, and sometimes ambiguous.
  I agree that it would be nice to have other words than for XY/XX chromosomes (or small vs large gametes), this would make the language more exact and inclusive. However, I (and others) dislike the term “biological male”, because I think it exists only to create a category that equates cis men with trans women. Even if we agree on defining “biological male” as a person having XY chromosomes, in a sports context this is an unhelpful category because there are large differences between XY cis men and XY trans women. When there is apparently so much concern for fairness and safety, why not ask the big questions: How can we make sports inclusive, safe and fun for everyone (including trans people!), regardless of genetics? Are sex or gender useful categories to separate competition — or are there other, more useful markers? (And maybe even: Are international competitions as we have them now a desirable system?)
- I agree with much of what you said but have to nit-pick a part that I found confusing.
  trans women are women
  And cis women are cis women?
  Comes off as if an afab person, who has always referred to herself as simply "woman" now has to refer to herself as "cis woman" to be exact, whereas trans women have now adopted "woman"
  I'm a guy, and I'd be pretty irritated if people suddenly started insisting that I not refer to myself as "guy" anymore, because trans guys are now "guys" so they get my old title but now I have to specifically state that I'm a "cis guy" everywhere..
  Like why would I have to give up my title? It's one thing for them to adopt it as well, not like I mind, more the merrier! But why am I having to change my title when I've been the same all along?
  It's like if people began changing cats into dogs, and claiming the name "cat" for the former dogs. Cool, do what you will, but then they tell me that my "cats" aren't "cats" anymore, they're cis-cats and I must refer to them as such. Why? They've always been cats to everyone? How you gonna tell me that you get the name "cats" but my lifelong "cats" are now something else?
  
  Trans women are women, and cis women are women. Simple. No one is "taking" someone else's name.
- Uh oh, someone is conflating gender and sex again, despite claiming to be a trans ally.
- Don't use cis. Woman is a woman.

Fuck this. Sports are games, they shouldn't be taken this seriously. Like, for example, Micheal Phelps has webbed feet and freaky monster lungs but nobody's banned him from swimming events for that. Every human is different, people need to fucking accept that sports can never be totally fair and realize that's not what this is about.
- By this logic, we should all go back to open division sports, which is what historically led to a de facto exclusion of women from all sports because, unsurprisingly, the vast majority of them were unable to be competitive in divisions that had men in them.
  
  Most sports actually have an open division. People tend to just call it the men's division since, as you point out, women get completely zoned out by men in sports. High school boys dominate leader boards when compared to Olympian women.
  
  How about adding a third category instead: a free for all category where all genders are welcome to compete and can use as much steroid as they want.
- I think that gender specific leagues need to go the way of the dodo but while they're here they're essentially weight/strength classes and most transwomen are more fairly matched against AMAB men than AFAB women.
  Ideally, we could just realize that having multiple league levels based on body type would be much more equitable.
  
  most transwomen are more fairly matched against AMAB men than AFAB women.
  Source?
  
  It really depends on the sport imo. Trans women may retain some more muscle and some parts of the skeleton are largely unaffected, but muscle elasticity, hip rotation, flexibility, and endurance all end up being more dependent on hormones than birth sex in the long term. How much these things matter varies a lot from sport to sport, and the current system is not sufficient to balance these traits even among people of the same sex. Multiple leagues based on broad body types sounds reasonable, but I have no idea how complicated the rules would have to be to make it completely fair, given we already accept a great deal of unfairness currently.
  
  As a trans woman who works out but doesn't really do sports because people make them suck, I have to say that I don't think that study is correct based of my experiences. Trans women often have lower testosterone than cis women after being on hrt for a while (2 years max typically, but it can be sooner). When I started hrt, literally only about 2 weeks later I noticed massive muscle atrophy and I literally couldn't even help my father move heavy furniture that I doubt I would have had a problem with before. After that I decided to start lifting and it's been a few months since then I am still not as strong as I used to be.
  
  Petite women compete against tall women all the time though
- The problem is that there’s too much money on the line. If certain performance enhancing drugs (like testosterone) are allowed, every athlete will be required to take them if they want to compete at the highest level. Athletes are known to favor short-term gains over long-term health consequences, and they’re pressured by their environment to do so as well.
  
  Capitalism ruining good things, as always. In the case of trans men on testosterone, though, who cares? I feel like that just levels the playing field for them generally. And as a trans woman? Estrogen has fucked up my body's ability to build muscle if anything. These arguments all boil down to excuses.
- Damn straight the reason why people play sports is to have fun.
  It’s makes me sick these commentators are their hiding transphobia in their “competitive arguments”.
  We don’t need to have these invasive requirements to test someone’s hormones just let people play their gender identity. No human deserves to be excluded from having fun when they only got one life.

Cricket is as a fun as baseball.
- Downvote this foo!
  Or don't, I'm not your mama.
- I thought I told you to get rid of those sideburns! ..."But Mr Burns I don't think know you what sideburns..."
  I've had it with your attitude! You're outa here!!

Appropriate then, that the issue is dicks
- Not all trans women have

The ultimate reason it's wrong to ban transgender people from competing in athletics competitions is that the implication is that testosterone can be considered a performance enhancing drug -- even if the athlete in question is well within hormonal levels of any other cisgender athlete in the same sport.
If that's the case, then it opens the door to banning other athletes for exceeding the testosterone limit, and guess what? Cisgender women with African heritage naturally produce more testosterone than the average woman world-wide. So banning transgender athletes leads to potentially banning African women which is obviously racist and wrong to do.
Also, poly cystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) is a condition that affects about 1 in 10 women and a very common side effect of PCOS is elevated testosterone levels. So 1 in 10 women would be banned for medical reasons outside of their control. And banning people for a medical condition is ableist and obviously wrong to do.
And, ultimately, sports aren't fair. We try to make them equitable by making the rules universal, but biological advantages are just part of sports. If we start banning athletes for hormones, why not ban athletes for being taller than average? Why not ban athletes for having better vision than average? Or better peripheral vision? Or faster reflexes? If only the absolute average, or below average people were allowed to compete then nearly half of all people would be unable to compete.
Plus, the vast majority of athletes say that they don't want transgender people to be banned from their respective sports.
And not to mention that it's just rude to exclude transgender athletes, and if it were truly such an advantage to be transgender then why aren't transgender people winning tournaments left and right? About 1% of people are transgender, so if transgender people are winning 1% of all tournaments then that would mean that they're exactly on exactly equal footing with their competitors. But I suspect that less than 1% of tournament winners are transgender which means that transgender people are actually at a disadvantage, which again, is fine because sports are inherently unfair as I outlined above.
At the end of the day, transgender athlete bans hurt everyone, and anti-transgender jerks are just making a big stink about it because it sounds reasonable on it's face to uninformed people and so it's a good wedge issue to bring up. Anti-transgender people don't care about the sports they're "trying to save", they just hate transgender people and want to see them suffer, and anyone who entertains their non-sense is complicit (probably unknowingly) in that suffering.
So please, those of you who are reasonable, shut down any discussion of transgender sports bans.
- Trans women out perform cis women in nearly all sports and need to be banned. Quit trying to blame this on transphobia and stop helping people cheat at sports.
  
  African women out perform lots of athletes in nearly all sports, should they be banned from competing? No, of course not, that's bigotry. Trans women don't out perform cis women or there would be overwhelming evidence that they're winning tournaments constantly over cisgender women. Where's the evidence? Good luck finding it, because it doesn't exist, because it's not true.
  And as I pointed out, sports are inherently unfair. It's not cheating to have a biological advantage. It's only cheating if you break the established rules of the actual game. Being more intelligent than your opponent in chess is not cheating, but moving a piece during your opponents turn is. See the difference? One is a biological advantage which is fine, the other is breaking a rule within the sport itself which is not fine.

I'd be mad except... it's fucking cricket.
- Cricket is the second-most popular sport in the world.
  I've literally never seen a game of it, and know nothing about it, but this affects a lot of people.
- Like baseball but slower.

Get that terf garbage out of here.

Safety of the players? How do trans women playing cricket endanger cis women?
- Cricket balls are hard dude. Like really hard.
  
  100%, but the hardness of a cricket ball doesn't change with who's using it. A really really hard ball moving really really fast is still a really really hard ball moving really really fast, so it's not like there's some significant difference in danger posed. And even if there was such a big danger posed by someone assigned-male-at-birth playing cricket, why would it still be perfectly fine for men's cricket?

Lotta bigoted users are really going mask off on this thread huh
- For real. These people are brain dead.
- That is the whole point of "trans women in sports" discussions. That's why conservatives selected this issue to push.
  
  They can act like concerned people when in reality they dgaf and never were interested in them in the first place

fairness or safety
my ass..
(edit to clarify: the only concern in making these decisions are the fragile egos of cis people)
- I'm all in for all of us holding hands and walking into the sunshine. But if someone has a concern about a potential unfair advantage because their oponent used to be male/female, they are automatically labeled as having "fragile ego"? That sounds very condescending. What should they do, just walk it off because you don't like it?
  They should make tests for all sports and decide if there is a potential advantage to be gained from being born male/female and decide on a case by case basis. If there is none, perfect, game on!
  I think there was a scandal in the US with a swimmer some time ago? My wife used to play tennis as a child and she said it was brutal when they were training and playing against males. It was a completely different level.
  Also not a big fan of being called "cis", to me it sounds offensive.
  
  Cis is the term that just means you are the gender you were born, you aren't trans.
  
  not a big fan of being called "cis"
  If you aren't trans, then you are cis.
  If you aren't gay, then you are straight.
  Do you also dislike being called straight?
  
  Oh my god get over yourself cis is not offensive.
  Fucking cislord scum.
  Now that? That would be offensive.

237 comments