bro pls

- Elon Musk could have actually done something for humanity and build two of those instead of buying Twitter.
  
  Dude literally owns a boring company, he could have ate the cost of digging the tunnel to specifications and still have more money than buying xitter
  
  And he's driven the value down below the price of one collider. He's lost an entire super collider!
  
  I disliked the truth of what you wrote so much, I initially downvoted you.
  
  You may not realize this, but the twitter money still exists. The former owners of twitter have it under their mattress right now, why don’t they build a supercollider?
  
  I mean we all know this, but if he wants his "brand" to be "Mr. Nerd Shit" why tf does he miss such obvious Ws?
- Upkeep might be expensive, but 22 billion is probably lower bound estimation, highly likely to 5x that at least
  
  So, we'll need to kill fewer brown children to pay for it?
  
  Pff the UK is spending that on a 70 mile railway thats going to be slower than the one already there, already spent nearly 2x the projected FCC budget on just 6 miles of the fucking thing.
  
  Maybe the government should spend less on avocado toast.
- Fucking hell, we can't get a tramway for 10b CAD around here and a 12km tunnel under a river was going to cost half a 100km collider 😐
  
  The problem is a train needs to transport humans, whereas the collider just needs to transport teeny tiny particles and keep a receipt of their arrival.
- First rule in government spending: why build one when you can have two at twice the price?
- I don't remember where I heard that science is super cheap, but I did not belive it first. Some time later I see that it is.
  
  I guess everything is relative.
- The US has given 4 times that to Ukraine. That's 2/3rds the budget of NASA.
  
  That's actually surprising that NASA only has 50% more budget than a single particle accelerator, given the huge number of cutting edge projects NASA is working on.
  
  Money spent fighting a morally justifiable war with Russia that we aren't actually having to fight is money well spent IMO.
  
  They have mostly given stuff they weren't going to use anymore worth that amount when bought new.
  
  How many people has the moon killed? Cuz Russia has killed tens of thousands. They've lost on the order of 250k of their own guys, and probably inflicted roughly the same numbers on the AFU.
  The moon doesn't kill old ladies sitting in their apartment.
  
  This initial budget estimate is 44x the 500M initial estimate of the jwst for comparison. Jwst eventually ballooned to 20B, but I'm guessing this would similarly balloon over time as well.

Budget: Military Complex > CERN
Long term value to citizens: CERN > Miltary Complex
All historical CERN expenses combined are a tiny fraction of the yearly expenses of the combined EU miltary
- But particles don't make my dick feel big
  
  Even quarks aren't that small.
  
  Seems like you're just not using them creatively enough
  
  Hold a particle in your hand first, then your dick. The relative difference will make your dick seem at least ten times bigger!
  
  That's because you're using them wrong!
- US Congress: Audit NASA > Audit the Pentagon
  EU: Audit CERN > Audit Luxemborg/Malta/UK
- I'm just amazed that funding $22 billion is even an issue when the project is being backed by the EU, and partially the US, since we never built ours....
  That's a rounding error for both entities

Guys, the trick is to get it partially built and then cancel funding. Then scientists will never trust you to fund anything ever again, and you get to act like science is a waste of money while you're spending ridiculous sums on fighter jets.
Yes, I am still bitter about Waxahatchie.
- Having the corpse of the Supercollider Superconductor in my backyard growing up (not literally) makes me wonder what could have been if the US wasn’t so shortsighted.
  
  It would be badass if it was literally
  
  It's really sad as a clear landmark on the map of the US's descent into scientific irrelevancy on the world stage.
  "If there was demand, the market would have built it!"
- TIL
  
  He's a great video documentary about it by Bobby Broccoli if you want information and have two hours.
  https://youtu.be/3xSUwgg1L4g
  
  "A US-Japanese trade mission where SSC funding was supposed to be discussed ended in the George H. W. Bush vomiting incident." LOL
  TIL as well and have been to waxahatchie without knowing.
  
  Wow, thanks to that article TIL about the George H. W. Bush vomiting incident
- I would have loved for the SSSC to have been built as well. It probably wouldn't have found the highs boson till 2010 or maybe as early as 2009. The computer technology of the 90s would have severely limited the things ability to be understood. CERN creates GB of data per second. I can't imagine what that thing would have done, and then we need to be able to process that much so we can filter out the noise.
  I was 12 when it was announced that they weren't gonna finish buildt it, and even though I was just a kid in IN, something shattered for me that day. That was almost as bad as watching Challenger.
- I think we realized halfway through building that we couldn't build bombs.
  
  It was a bit more.... complicated than that
- That project put my dad out of business. Government gave him (part of) the contract, he did a bunch of work for years and then poof, project gone, not gonna pay you for it.
- I was looking for this comment lol

This is cheaper than two super carriers.
- Yeah, but how many brown children can it kill?
  
  If you ask the scientists in my local Facebook group, it could kill all of them. That is, the ones not already killed by vaccines and 5G.
- The feds give the states more than $16b per year to build and run shitty, custom made IT systems for their Medicaid programs. It's basically a subsidy to IT companies. There are thousands of examples like this, where spending money on fundamental science is clearly a better investment.
- I was kind of thinking that $22 billion really doesn’t seem like that much money for a project like this.

This fucks, way better use of 22 billion dollars than usual
- But we could kill kids in the middle east somewhere for that money!
  
  Physics class: "Imagine a perfectly spherical cow moving on a frictionless surface..."
  IDF physics class: "Imagine a perfectly spherical bomb moving towards a frictionless Palestinian hospital..."
  
  Just toss the middle east kids in the super collider.

Remember when people were worried about these killing us all by creating a black hole that swallows the Earth?
Can this one just hurry up and do that please?
- yeah but no
  but yeah

I'd rather spend 22 billion on this than in Israel or more weapons of war
- We have wasted way more money on way stupider projects. Would love to see this built rather than the military getting even more money.
- ...or another feeble scheme like the 5000th pitch for a "hyper loop"
  
  Hyperloop was known high schooler nonsense from the start, at least this will get something back, whatever it is.

i hope someday we construct a collider that spans the entire circumference of the earth. But we'd probably have to build one that spans the circumference of the moon first, and then maybe mars, since the oceans are going to be a bit of a doozie to work around that we don't have the technology for, whereas the interior of a collider is supposed to be evacuated, so, the moon almost kinda already handles that for us. heat might be an issue of course, but if we can figure out thermal radiator panels that can dump the heat straight into space, maybe we could pull it off...
mars would address the heat issues, but those dust storms are no joke and the dust itself is microscopic toxic/caustic razors and it'll try to get in everywhere and ruin fine instruments it touches. Moon dust is also really bad but there's no wind to kick it up on the moon obviously...
but damn. DAMN. imagine the fucking science we could get done with a LUNAR-SCALE PARTICLE COLLIDER!!!
- Halo
  Just gonna throw that out there
  
  Master Chief, we need you for one last mission >!bro!<
- Fuck it, orbital collider. Earth deserves a cool ring
  
  Yes. Encircling the Sun
  
  queue halo theme
- Now I'm imagining placing a ring of gigantic dyson-sphere powered magnets in an intergalactic void to create the final and ultimate supercollider, the size of a galactic supercluster
  
  that would legitimately be so fucking cool, but I think at those scales we're actually encroaching on things that truly are physically impossible. If it takes light entire geological eras to move through such a system, any hope of maintaining physical integrity throughout its length is ... exceedingly unlikely. Like, at ranges THAT vast, pretty sure the expansion of spacetime itself would rip it open...
  ... but i'm still enjoying imagining it :3
- Gotta build it as an orbital ring.
  
  Also, maybe add some biomes, oceans and wildlife. And absolutely no parasitic life forms trapped in there.
- The Moon’s daytime is half a month long and can reach 120 C so we’d need some pretty powerful heat shielding. And there’s no ozone layer to protect the electronics from radiation, and I’m pretty sure the Moon orbits outside of Earth’s magnetosphere. And the shielding used for such a project could also be used to fix climate change here (and terraform Venus later) with orbital parasols. And whatever unimaginable technology we’d need for such an ambitious project may as well be used to run a grid of electromagnets and power lines across Mars to give it a magnetic field
  
  Most proposals for moon colonies are either built underground or covered up with a thick layer of regolith for both of the reasons you mentioned. It's very likely a collider would also be built underground for the same reasons. Digging a many-miles-long tunnel on the moon with the awful properties of moon regolith to deal with would have its own set of challenges though.
- There's probably opportunity to do some really large colliders in space, for much cheaper than on any celestial body.
  But then, people are having a really hard time imagining the fucking science we could get done with a lunar-scale particle collider. That's why the merely 100km one isn't getting any money.
- If gravatons are a real particle, we'd need one on on the order of earths orbit around the sun to see it. Maybe someday lol.
  
  Or a different mechanism of detection,
- Why do we need to do it around a planet? Origin of Halo confirmed
- Linear collider to Proxima Centauri
- I think on earth is preferential, and you'd have to build it underground anyways in order to shield it from interference.
  
  I think on earth is preferential
  Something something "resonance cascade."
  
  Even underground there is tons of issues. One for example is that the ground is having tides.
  As the moon passes above is the ground is moving by several cm so it has to be compensated by the collider.
  
  At the energies involved, it's akin to a bacteria interfering with a supersonic goods train. The only bit that needs shielding is the detector systems, and that's not THAT hard to do in space. At least if you're at the point of building a space based accelerator.

Fun fact, they were going to build one in the US crossing the borders of LA, TX, AR. They even dug out the damn hole, but they shit canned the whole project so now we're just left with a random giant circular hole underground.
Edited AK to AR. That would have been a bit excessive.
- I think I saw this in an anime once. Something to do with a big Philosopher Stone or something.
  
  edo.... wado...
- Not quite circular, they only got 26% of the tunnel dug. Still, 23 km is quite a long tunnel to leave sitting empty
  
  Fill it with cheese. Make another cheese vault. We require the cheese. Government cheese. Cheese.
  
  Don't tell Elon, it'll be filled with his shitty cars by the end of the week.
  
  Thanks for clearing that up, I thought I was finished or near completion. Glad they decided to stop production when they did but sucks that we didn't get it.
- There's an excellent documentation by BobbyBroccoli about that.
  https://youtu.be/3xSUwgg1L4g
  
  Love me a Bobby video. Can't wait for nortel part 2
  
  This is awesome thanks for sharing.
- Every time we get close to a science victory our military advisor finds another war to divert production to..
  
  Yea sometimes I'm pretty dumb. Gona edit the correct abbreviations now lol
- Moms for Liberty would be calling the police on it regularly.
- Sounds very much like how I build my homes in Minecraft
- They should have built it crossing the border of TX and MX, that would have been really popular ;)
  Ps I'm not a Trumpian, just making a joke :)

Imagine if only 1/10 of all countries ~~GDP~~ gouvernement spending went to scientists and the patent bullshit didn't exist ? We'd be mining asteroids and sipping coffee on Mars.
- This comment doesn’t even make sense. For example, the USA government spent 37% compared to the GDP.
  If you mean 10% of government spending towards science then that question makes sense.
  The USA spends about $75billion of the $800billion defense budget on R&D. It spends another $120billion on non-defense R&D.
  Which is about 1/31 of federal spending for the US.
  
  Thanks for the correction. I never knew what word to use and used GDP because that's the closest thing to what I mean. Thanks again !
  
  Would be neat if they found a way to only spend like 200 billion a year (the GDP of Hungary and as much as the second biggest military spender) on the people grinder.
- I like to analyze art ( usually alone and in my mind ) so bear with me. His art is Very interesting but it's always big robot/drone/ megalithique structures in an open field. While I can totally imagine a big robotic mascots rotting away for months after a malfunction, his work more akin to the 50s view of what the future would be but with modern lenses/tech than a plausible future . In the steel vs digital war, the digital won and his work doesn't show any of it.
- Venus would take longer, but would be vastly easier to terraform to a habitable world. The atmosphere should be able to be transformed into an earth like atmosphere by dumping a few comets and some bacteria in. Might take the bacteria a few thousand years, but they did it here in Earth caused the first mass extinction.
  We might wanna check to see if any bacteria exist on Venus first, but honestly if there are, they haven't made the evolutionary jump in the last 4 billion years, so I doubt it will happen just cause we add the necessary water.
  While we are at it, we may as well solve the dark forest problem, turn the solar system into a massive spaceship, and extend the life of our sun, by turning Mercury into a solar thruster/ star lifter.
  
  I'm partial to the idea of converting Mercury into a star lifter / thruster / planetary shade. Blocking sunlight to Venus would cause the atmosphere to cool, then freeze and fall as snow. Then you can disassemble Venus too for more raw material. That's a massive store of carbon, oxygen, and sulfur. Solar powered mass drivers operating out of a planetary vacuum cut costs of launching material into space.
  People often object to the idea because we can't afford it, it's too difficult, or out of concern for preserving those planets. Yeah, we won't be doing all that. It will be our descendants in the far future. A task for new civilizations, over eons. Discovering life on Mercury and Venus is a long shot. But if it is there, it's doomed without human intervention. Convert those two planets to Dyson swarm, and they'll have matter for countless orbital habitats, not just for whoever humans evolve into, but for nature preserves too.
  I've watched a bunch of Isaac Arthur.
  
  I'm not seeing why the same couldn't be said for Mars, drop some mold spores and water bears down there, maybe some photosynthetic bacteria, slowly build a blanket of CO2 to warm the planet, melt/release the water from the surface, a thousand years gives a habitable planet, no asteroid steering required.
- It's all fine calling patents bullshit until you start getting large corporations stealing technology from small and medium enterprises.
  The way to ensure that large corporations and no small businesses can thrive have an even bigger monopoly is to get rid of the patent system.
  Tired of this shit on Lemmy. Do your homework.
  
  It's currently used to monopolize important discoveries and technologies. The Huawei debacle is the biggest proof. No country should be able to control another's technological advance based on weither they're friends with them at the moment or not. Also, it's not like big tech stealing from small/medium enterprise never happens. Either they just buy the company or strangle it one way or another to bankrupt it and then buy it for cheap.

Mfw this pipe dream costs 22 billion and we just gave Israel 105 billion to keep genociding

I'd rather spend money on science than killing innocent people.

How about one that goes around the circumference of the Earth? That would be boss.
- Just go full Dyson Ring and have one in space around the sun, can even use all the surface area to power it with solar panels.
  
  That sounds expensive.
  
  Imagine the amount of EV cars we could charge with a half functioning dyson ring...

When I look at the inability to fund big science projects like this, I'm reminded of the most fictional thing to ever happen in a science fiction movie.
The film? Contact.
They build a giant portal machine thing.
Gets blowed up by terrorists.
But that's okay, because they've got another one!
What?
Yep!
"Why build one when you can build two for twice the price?"
FALSE. SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF FAILURE. ABORT.
- Wasn't the second one built by an eccentric billionaire or something? Like a Howard Hughes type.
  
  It was actually the us government that built a second one in secret, which actually sounds about right.

STOP ACCELERATING PARTICLES! Years of research and no use found for particles any smaller than SAND!
- They've played us for absolute fools.
- But look how fast we can make those little fuckers go!
  It's just like slot car racing, round and round, but.... you know.... faster. And yeah, it's more expensive than a regular slot car track, I guess. But still, those particles will beat any slot car you care to pick! So there's that. Welllll not those fancy slot cars with them high performance motors, I mean, that's a completely different ballgame there, we can't compete with that.
  But still, those particles whizzing around, it's gonna be pretty cool. I reckon we should do it.
  So anyway, thank you for reading my financial proposal for the SuperLHC.
- You sound like a man who hates sand.
  
  That sounds like something big sand would say.
  
  It's coarse and irritating and it gets everywhere...

Sorry bro, we spent the 22 billion on the genocide budget.
- Even more

We need this one to undo the timeline shift the last one caused
- Yeah everything's been kinda fucked ever since, hasn't it... i mean... it was 2008 right before obama being elected and i really don't think the "correct" path of the future would have involved r-money or mccain winning so at least SOME shit would be the same, but still...
  
  LHC didn't start seriously smashing shit (beyond previous energies done by other colliders) until after 2010 though. I think everything went tits up about 2012, tbh - the year they found the Higgs Boson. I kind-of jokingly subscribe to the idea that the world ended. I mean, it just checks so many boxes to me, it truly seems that the universe as it stands right now is fundamentally different than it should be after the passing of one single decade.
- We need to get the divergence number above 1.

But how will it be called? "Even larger Hadron Collider"?
- QUARK
  Quantum
  Universe
  Advanced
  Research
  Komplex!!
  
  Collidy Mc Collideface
- It literally says “Future Circular Collider” smh...
  
  It will never get built, so the name is futureproof.
- If it works like telescopes, the Very Large Hadron Collider, then the Extremely Large Hadron Collider, and then the Overwhelmingly Large Hadron Collider.
  
  Do not forget the BFHC and the GHCOAT
- "Largest Hadron Collider... so far"
- "LHC 2: Electric Boogaloo"

I agree, this is a shame.
We should build an even bigger one.

Maybe they should do a Kickstarter.

- No it's SERN. Obviously they've figured out the time travel.
  
  gooifies your banana
- God I love the half life universe

The transmutation circle is massive this time. We can't fail the French-Swiss genocide.
(Btw I've worked on the Atlas project on the LHC, projects are always delayed)

I'm pretty bullish on science investments, but I've heard multiple arguments that this thing is probably not worth the money. The most prevalent argument I've heard to the contrary is basically "we could discover something that might be interesting." But like very little in terms of concrete measurable returns on investment for it.
This article does a good job of arguing against it I think. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-doesnt-need-a-new-gigantic-particle-collider/
My mind isn't made up on the topic, so like can anybody explain to me why this thing is actually worth 30+ billion dollars?
- If they already knew the intended results it wouldn't make sense to do it. Science of this kind is like "here's something we haven't tried yet", which itself is pretty difficult to even come up with.
  Also, money spend on something like this doesn't just disappear. It goes around the suppliers doing it and returns to the state eventually. Of course someone will pocket some money but when talking billions it's more of an investment in the area than a cost or even an investment in the actual collider. A used collider isn't worth that amount of money , so where'd it go? It didn't disappear. Money goes round.
  It creates a lot of jobs and when looking at the entire supply chain, it feeds a hell of a lot of people, even if the scientific result is "oh well it didn't do anything at all." That way, it might be cheaper than supplying social security/basic income for that amount of people.
  At the end of the day, in the grand economic scale, we're all riding on the shoulders of whoever digs out the the resources from the Earth, so we need to make these kind of very important projects to make it appear as if everyone else is actually producing anything at all. The science is just a nice side effect.
  Will this do?
- Off the top of my head, I can't think of any advance that didn't at some point depend on people just dicking around to see what they could see.
  "What happens if we spin this stick really really fast against this other stick?"
  "Cool! What happens if we put some dried moss around it?"
  "That's nuts, man! Hey, I wonder what happens if we toss some of our leftovers in there?"
  "C'mon over here, guys. You gotta taste this!"
  At worst, a project like this keeps a lot of curious people in one place where we can make sure they don't cause harm with their explorations. At best, whole new industries are founded. Never forget that modern electronics would never have existed without Einstein and Bohr arguing over the behaviour of subatomic particles.
  Say the actual construction cost is $100 billion over 10 years and operational costs are $1 billion a year. Compared to all the stupid and useless stuff we already spend money on, that's little more than pocket lint. We could extract that much from the spending of one military alliance and it would look like a rounding error. Hell, we could add one cent to the price of each litre of soft drinks, alcoholic beverages, and bottled water and have money left over.
  
  Yeah, but you could also fund a lot of other research with this budget. The point is, physicists just don't know, if there are more particles existing. There is no theoretical theory there predicting particles at a certain mass with certain decay channels. They won't know what to look for. That's actually already a problem for the LHC. They have this huge amount of data, but when you don't know, what kind of exotic particles you are looking for and how they behave, you can't post-process the data accordingly. They are hidden under a massive amounts of particles, that are known already.
  
  Something something capitalism innovation
  
  Has the LHC resulted in any kind of tangible returns on investment so far? I know they proved the existence of the Higgs Boson, but all that did as I understand it was verify what we were already pretty sure of.
  I'm just having a hard time understanding why we can't blow 30 or 100 billion or whatever on something else like fusion research. Or just something with a more concrete "if we pull this off it solves kinda prospect.
  I understand science can walk and chew gum at the same time, but this in particular seems like a shitload to spend and a lot of land to disturb so that particle physicists can nerd out in an underground torus proving theories but maybe not moving the needle much for mankind.
- This is fundamental research, we never know what we are going to find.

The next step.. a human collider
- Cars?
- A large hard-on collider!
  Yes I know someone already made that joke:)
  
  Hey, I think I've seen that porno before!
  At least the first part, anyway. I never finished it...
- you mean the ufc?
- Event Horizon?

fuck it just give it to em

NA copium. Where's your $21B collider ?

The fact they are suggesting 100km in circumference tells me that the size of this thing was not planned based on scientific research, but they wanted an easy, big number. That being said, go science! I'm all for additional research, provided they don't explode our planet, as I would be mildly upset if they did that.
- Meh, we'd probably all die anyway, so then it's no longer our problem.

https://youtu.be/j50ZssEojtM
- I thoroughly enjoyed this. Then I saw I already liked it. 15 years sounds short but it's actually a decent amount of time.

This meme got Sabine hossenfelder bricked up

I am waiting for the day when the biggest collider first run is going to explode this planet and then earth is going to become itself a particle.
- Why does future circular collider, the largest collider, not eat all the other colliders?
  
  If I remember the smaller colliders are used to feed the LHC. Probably the same with a future collide.

See here from physicist Sabine Hossenfelder on the subject:
https://youtu.be/lu4mH3Hmw2o

As a Tales From the Loop TTRPG enjoyer, this rocks

The UK loses billions per year since Brexit. We could instead ave used that money for this and still have been better off

So dollar for dollar, are all those colliders worth their value over say extra tenure position for scientists?
- The colliders wouldn't exist without people in the tenured position. Tenure is protection from capital interests. It's not just a culture war thing.
  
  I'm asking if the capital interest skew public research towards mega projects.
- Perhaps, but we'd benefit more as a collective knowing the secrets of the cosmos.

Only if someone sticks their head in this one too

- ok make it bigger then

I'd quark off to that.

- They already exist. Just wrangle a couple of neutron stars and put them next to each other. Bada Bing Bada Boom, Bob's your uncle
- This is exactly what I was thinking. Can make it as big as you want and no need to dig out the earth. Just a few "acceleration rings" and then the detector. I guess if it were feasible right now we'd be doing that though.
  
  Everyone underestimates how HEAVY the collider is, how often sensor modules need to be changed and mainly that the ring is just one part of the entire group of big buildings you need for this.
  You need to create different beams of different makeup from different sources, different loops to make the beam hit sonething and maybe return the products into the loop, you need extensive sensory equipment where the collision happens and different sensors for different experiments.
  It is just SOOOO much cheaper, easier and better to build it underground instead of in space.

Any actual creepy stories about the LHC?
something very creep happened to me recently and idk what to make of it
- Steins gate?
- what do you mean?
  
  Aliens of course

Bro how we gonna get those extra flavors

I hope we can build one that can use hydrogen fusion like the sun; such an energy source would make an excellent power source, even if small
- It's just a collider, not a fusion reactor. But there are multiple sites where they experiment with it.

When do we admit that maybe Dark Matter just doesn't exist?
- We don't because we have experimental evidence for it's existence.
  
  I would argue that we have evidence for which the theory of dark matter and dark energy is a fairly suitable theory.
  
  No we don't
- Well then we better figure out where tf is the 80% of the matter in the universe is hiding.
- Easy. When scientists come up with a verifiable theory that explains observed gravitational effects in the universe that can't be explained by general relativity, given visible matter.
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
  
  I mean at this point, dark matter just seems like reaching at this point. Might as well be a neurologist searching for the human soul.
- When you admit that night time doesn't exist simply because you're not there to observe it while you sleep. We know somethings there. We know there's matter that isn't adding up. We just don't know what it is.

Science bad
- You bad!
- Science naughty ;-)