I definitely appreciate the hesitation in defederation, but I'm in favor of defeding with both hexbear and lemmygrad.

I've seen more than enough "Stalin did nothing wrong posts" to know that discussions are pointless and would lead me only to frustration and a desire to drink.

Freedom of speech does not constitute an obligation to listen.

Good for you!

I'm not in favour of pre-emptive defederating. It feels like censorship doing so and that bothers me.

1. Their note to their users specifically says to keep their anti establishment opinions and trolling to their own communities and don't spread it further for fear of defederation. It hardly sounds threatening to us.

2. Defederating can happen at any point, and I think would be better kept as a reactive response and last resort rather than proactive.

3. The more our large instances start fracturing and closing off from one another the less useful Lemmy will become. You're hardly blocking out an idealogy, if hexbear users wanted in they could just sign up and that would make it harder to find them. At least having them federated makes it easy to filter out @hexbear if we wanted.

4. Practicing tolerance goes both ways. Calling communities 'them' vs 'us' and judging a group based on the noise of the few doesn't seem like the right approach. If hexbear became a problem and moderators complained of hate speech and conflict then absolutely we use the tools we have to keep things functioning, but filtering out groups because we don't like 'their' belief systems will make us judgemental and biased as a result. This is a platform to promote discussion not an echo chamber to gather like minded opinions and bounce them off each other in perpetuity.

I have lurked here for a long time, but I just don't understand the logic here. I read the statement that was linked here, and it just seemed like they were saying that they should be respectful and follow our rules? ... Isn't dismantling propaganda... through "informed rhetoric" a good thing? Why are NATO, the IMF or World Bank automatically good? ... Aren't we just creating a bubble by preemptively blocking a large lemmy instance just because we don't like their political speech? As far as I can tell they aren't promoting racism or bigotry. Has lemmy.world preemptively banned nazi or right-wing instances?

I have no idea who Hexbear is, but it's well documented how th IMF and World Bank work to endebt developing countries to the US's corporate rule and then steal all their resources... Are we... Not allowed to talk about that here?

Not in favour of this.

I chose Lemmy.world because I wanted an instance that would federate even with people I might disagree with. If it's illegal and abusive, sure. But to defederate on ideological grounds? I was planning a recurring donation but this makes me consider setting up my own instance.

They're welcome to whatever discussions they want to have on their instance. As long as they respect the rules of other instances when they're here, then everybody wins.

As for their point about dismantling western propaganda - if they have documented sources then let's have a conversation. It's not like there isn't western propaganda

okay this is freaking wild:

We need a sub dedicated to bot building, trolling and brigading effectively. Screw morals, or decency. They’re tools that maintain the status quo.

I'm gonna come out and say, even with the statement, I'm not in favor of preemptive defederation like this.

I know the admins of an instance are hosting us basically out of the goodness of their own hearts, and I appreciate that. And I understand they can do whatever they want, and we can move to a different instance if we want. I get it.

But I joined .world because I wanted a neutral instance that would connect with pretty much everyone unless they were particularly problematic. Could hexbear be particularly problematic? Sure, maybe. But I think there's a big difference between defederating in response to a problem and defederating in anticipation of a potential problem, especially since the users aren't given a chance to discuss it. Like, I know we're not technically entitled to give our input if we're not admins, but I think it would be nice, y'know?

If it was just some small instance of trolls that's one thing, but hexbear is actually quite a big instance, so this is a very impactful decision. I don't like it being made preemptively behind the scenes like this.

What the fuck?

I was assured by this server that it has no problem with socialists. This is worse than I expected it to be, I expected a half-hearted attempt to justify this action through means other than "they're socialists and hold socialist views".

To the three points here:

1. "Western propaganda" - Is capitalist propaganda. Of course socialists oppose it, we oppose capitalism.

2. "Nato" - An anti-nato position is held by literally every single socialist organisation in Europe. You will not find a socialist org with a pro-nato position. Ffs just look at DiEM25's position on this, it's probably the most well known cross-nation alliance of socialist groups and parties in europe including people like Yanis Varoufakis, Jeremy Corbyn and Zizek to name a few but that really doesn't do the size of the DiEM organising alliance justice. Even Noam Chomsky is anti-nato ffs. What the fuck are you doing acting like this is a fringe position not held by a huge number of people over here in Europe and at the forefront of leftist politics on the continent? Taking the position "you're not allowed to be anti-nato" is blatant american imperialism.

3. "It is in the Left’s interest for these organizations to be demolished." - Duh? What the fuck do the liberals running this instance think socialists believe exactly? When Marx calls for revolution do you think that we mean to continue the organisations that existed prior? No, we seek to abolish them and create new socialist organisations that serve the new socialist state we seek to create.

Absolutely mindblowing that this instance ever pretended it was going to play nicely with socialists. I'm disgusted.

Every single take above is also the take you will get from every single socialist community over on reddit. The anarchist communities will also even have an anti-nato position. Like jesus christ. I expected this post to be bad but I didn't expect it to be "Yeah fuck socialists, oh and fuck what anarchists believe too".

I'm flabbergasted that @ruud@lemmy.world just completely lied about not intending to block based on ideology, and it's extremely telling that Hexbear gets a pre-emptive defederation for this shit while literal actual nazis were a chore to get defederated.

Why is it wrong to be critical of western propaganda?

Gotta say, pre-emptive defederation seems like a bit of an over reaction. There's plenty of leftists in other instances, not just hexbear and lemmygrad. Hell, I'm an anarchist that regularly comments on political/social threads in this instance, it doesn't seem to be an issue. Lemmy in general is pretty obviously far left leaning. I don't see the harm in federating with hexbear, unless they show themselves to be actively harassing or trolling. But you'd have to federate first to find out if they will

Personally, I'd rather just block the stuff I don't like rather than have lemmy.world trying to decide "who's worthy of federation".

Good. I commented earlier about how horrible hexbear was. I signed up for hexbear, hoping to meet leftists, but these are not leftists. They just parrot Chinese/Russian propaganda. They have no original takes, no critical thinking. Call me whatever, but, I'm pro NATO. I don't give a shit about what bullshit propaganda you show me from a totalitarian regime. If the U.S. is bad, then the CCP is pure evil.

What have they actually done?

I'm all for defederating from instances that cause problems but all the quotes above basically seem to say, "I know you want a revolution but you still gotta follow the rules of whatever instance you're posting on."

It's your server so your under no obligation to provide a reason for defederating beyond disagreeing with them but it leaves me wondering if there's anything else or if it's just a matter of disliking them?

I don't mind what the servers admins need to do. But please don't take quotes out of context.

“With the cumulative updates Users may show/hide avatars, show/hide scores, show/hide NSFW content, show/hide read posts, show/hide notifications for new posts, block users, block communities, report direct messages, mods can distinguish a comment to sticky it to the top of a post. Users may set their feed in their account settings to determine if the default feed is local (hexbear.net only), subscribed (user subscribed communities only), or all (all posts on unblocked communities on federated instances).

Hello users of Hexbear in the next couple of weeks (exact date will most likely be somewhere around the 5th of August) we will be taking the site down for approximately three hours to update to lemmy 0.18.3 and begin federation., as we prepare for federation we wanted to create a primer for etiquette when engaging in the fediverse.

Please read and respect the rules of the community instance in which you are posting/commenting. Please try to keep the dirtbag lib-dunking to hexbear itself. Do not follow the Chapo Rules of Posting, instead try to engage utilizing informed rhetoric with sources to dismantle western propaganda. Posting the western atrocity propaganda and pig poop balls is hilarious but will pretty quickly get you banned and if enough of us do it defederated. Realize that you are a representative of the hexbear instance when you post on other instances.

Know that your posts, comments, and DMs involving communities/users of other instances are stored on those instances databases, while delete requests are sent there is no guarantee they will be honored, especially if a different platform is involved (mastodon, etc).

In addition, a reminder that you may set your feed or search to local/subscribed/all and block users/communities to have a greater control over what content you have. Local is Hexbear only, subscribed is communities from hexbear and federated instances that you have specifically subscribed to, and All is hexbear + all federated instances. There will be a pinned post in the !hexbear community where you can nominate instances for our allow-list or block-list.

In closing, I want to remind everyone that the moderation policy of Hexbear communities will not change and will be strictly applied to any users from a federated instance. While we are not responsible for moderation policy of remote communities our admins do see reports you make of posts/comments on federated instances, and we are able to remove them, while not actually deleting the post/comment it does hide it so Hexbear users cannot see/interact with it.”

Too bad this instance won't approach federation with Threads in the same manner; I don't think any positive outcomes could be expected from their behavior either.

What happened to "defederating should always be a last resort"?

Hexbear is probably the most inclusive major instance. We're the only instance with mandatory pronoun tags. And yet we get defederated before we have a chance, while Exploding-Heads got to stay federated for so long? Our admins even went out of their way to make things easy for you, too. Did you even talk to them?

last resort

preemptive

??

As a leftist can I just say how cringe it is to treat "fighting liberalism on the fediverse" like it's activism? Go outside.

IDK, I don't think this is the right move at all... The announcement post and the comments you pointed out were cherry-picked and misinterpreted. They are an ideological instance. You wouldn't say blahaj.zone is trying to "spread" LGBTQ+ "ideas". They're just a specifically queer instance.

Everything Hexbear said was, the way I read it, in the direction of "let's behave and be good with the federation". I think you're just confounding your own ideologies, and the way you think things should be done, with what the community at large wants.

That being said, IDC that much, but I do disagree.

PS: Posting from my lemm.ee account because this post doesn't show up on my lemmy.world account for some reason.

I just think it's funny how exploding heads took lots of polling and hand wringing before defederation and socialists get defederated on sight. I also think we should add "This is an expressly pro-NATO instance" to the front page, so people realize this before they make an account here.

it became evident that allowing Hexbear to federate would violate our rules.

For the sake of absolute transparency, and clarity, would you mind specifying exactly what rules would be violated if Hexbear were to be allowed to federate with Lemmy.world?

Hexbar has no intention of "respecting the rules of the community instance in which they are posting/commenting.”

This is a rather assumptive statement. You can only guess that this would happen, and have no tangible proof that it actually would -- the previous quotes that you provided outline your ideological differences, and not proof of conspiracy. You leave out the fact that in the Hexbear post that you linked they are telling their users to behave on other instances. In the quotes that you provided, you, quite conveniently, left out some important contextual information which changes the perceived intent -- the full version of the quotes that you pulled is as follows:

Please read and respect the rules of the community instance in which you are posting/commenting. Please try to keep the dirtbag lib-dunking to hexbear itself. Do not follow the Chapo Rules of Posting, instead try to engage utilizing informed rhetoric with sources to dismantle western propaganda. Posting the western atrocity propaganda and pig poop balls is hilarious but will pretty quickly get you banned and if enough of us do it defederated. Realize that you are a representative of the hexbear instance when you post on other instances.

While, yes, I agree that this is a rather uncouth way to word an official statement to the members of an instance, it shows quite the opposite for intent to spread harm to other instances.

In addition, several comments from a Hexbear admin, demonstrate that instance rules will not be respected.

Here are some examples:

“I can assure you there will be no lemmygrad brigades, that energy would be better funneled into the current war against liberalism on the wider fediverse.”

“All loyal, honest, active and upright Communists must unite to oppose the liberal tendencies shown by certain people among us, and set them on the right path. This is one of the tasks on our ideological front.”

Your point here makes little sense to me. If anything, the examples that you just provided state otherwise. These quotes do not prove intent to cause harm on other instances through rule breaking. Your argument seems to be founded purely on an ideological difference.

I have no issue at all with defederating with an instance if they are obviously harmful to the fediverse on the whole -- instances that promote spam, trolling, brigading, etc; however, hexbear, from what I see in the linked official post, shows no evidence of such intent. All I see is difference in ideology.

This is entirely reasonable to me. I don't believe there is any good reason to federate with instances that are intending to astroturf, censore dissenting information, and peddle propoganda. You can see their vote brigading in a post on c/fediverse discussing this situation.

Federating with such instances does more harm than good, providing an audience for propoganda aimed at fomenting extreme perspectives thru deviant misinformation and content/narrative control.

Creating those kind of fringe echo-chamer instances is how we end up with toxic and extreme groups like SRS and incels or the donald (on reddit). They can even start out as satire and then quickly devolve into toxic hate.

The argument that we want a diverse fediverse doesn't mean that we should federate with toxic instances with bad intentions. That's not the kind of diversity that we should be promoting. That's the kind of toxic userbase that should be quarantined...

Defederating instances on ideological grounds isn't a bad idea IMHO, and I can see why people might not want their feeds to end up full of people who just sort of assume that what we're here to do is use facts and logic to destroy western propaganda, with the goal of bringing about the downfall of the International Monetary Fund. That sounds like an extremely tiring project to be involved in; you wouldn't want to hang out with somebody who does that in every thread.

But I think it's important for the reason here to be that Hexbear is embarking on a project of ideological warfare. Not that the community consensus there is that the IMF is a bad idea. A load of communists is probably fine, while a load of evangelical communists determined to exactly follow the letter of every rule while maximizing the amount that they can evangelize is probably not fine.

I'm not going to pretend to be unbiased, being a poster over on chapo.chat (or Hexbear as it's now [embarrassingly] called), but I hope those of you who support decision can at least understand how frustrating the purported justification is. The notion that hexbear has a consistent ideology to push beyond general amorphic leftism doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, so in the end the decision to defederate just comes down to "these people have opinions".

I echo the dissatisfaction people have with this and won't be donating again. This is Lemmy.world not Lemmy.(we need a safe space from the communists)

The fact you were upset about Beehaw's defederation but then turn around and do this is massive hypocrisy.

This is you imposing your personal ideology on your users. The fact you lead with those 3 "concerning statements" tells us everything. You only like free speech when it aligns with your own beliefs.

Shame.

to “dismantle western propaganda” and "demolish organizations such as NATO” shows that Hexbar has no intention of "respecting the rules of the community instance in which they are posting/commenting.”

That's one hell of a stretch. NATO and the IMF must be pretty fragile if you can demolish them by posting on lemmy.world from hexbear.

I don't have any idea of who they are, but I don't get it: we're not preemptively defederating from Meta because it would be closed minded to do so (as per your admin decision), while Meta bad behavior is well documented (they've been fined by EU several times already), and we want to preemptively defederate from these people without even knowing how they will actually behave? Why? Shouldn't they be "innocent until proven guilty"?

Sorry, but talking against NATO means violating lemmy.world rules? What the hell, I’m out of here.

Permanently Deleted

I don’t really have a problem with the main post you linked to. Are we a strictly pro-NATO server or something? I think I’m missing exactly what the issue is 🤷‍♂️

wait, so it really is just ideological? Like, y'all don't ban users who come into lemmygrad to specifically troll communists on ideological grounds, but when hexbear tells its users to engage in good faith you defed them? what the hell?

Edit: Like honestly this is kinda gross, they specifcally try and smooth things out and make things easier for your admins so you don't have to deal with a flood of hexbear users spamming PPB everywhere and you just use it as evidence to defederate lol

So communists are not welcome on lemmy.world or what? What even is a Hexbear? How different is this move from when Elon decided to reinstate every banned account apart from Alex Jones'? How thin is the skin of lemmy.world mods? What's the point of censorship on this platform? I can go to Reddit and Twitter if I want protection from communist ideologies??

Disappointing as fuck. You're defedarating based on ideological differences and a guess that they won't engage in good faith? And you're reaching that paltry conclusion after cherry picking posts?

Not to mention the posts you've shared aren't bad at all? They're literally asking their users to engage properly in a civil manner.

Big yikes man.

Taking a glance at Hexbear, it looks ridiculously juvenile.

Doesn't feel like it merits pre-emptive defederation, though.

This is really worrying. De-federating should be the last resort, I'm leaving

Being in favor or support of the status quo is also pushing an ideology.

So preemptively defederating from Meta (literally Evil Corp, that backed genocide and fascism) is not okey, but doing the same with communists is.

I'm starting to get a feel of what Lemmy World really is.

I'm a bit new to the fediverse and I came to lemmy.world because it's one of the big ones and thought it would be "neutral". But nothing quoted in this post seems dangerous or against the rules ? You don't even explain what rules they are supposedly breaking ? It's weird that the admins posted this thinking "people will understand". All you are saying is "these people are from the left", we don't like them.

You should clearly states in your rules/description that you are a neoliberal instance and contradictory opinions will be squashed.

"Are you now or have you ever been a member of hexbear.net, or a fellow traveler?"

Not a big fan of cherry-picking posts and comments to pre-emptively defederate because of opposing ideals.

This opinion comes from knowing nothing at all about hexbear prior to this post.

What a disappointingly reactionary approach to federation.

As one authoritarian admin to another, I applaud you on the use of unilateral decision-making without any input from your mods or user base.

How is the second statement problematic? It is a fact, that is largely documented in academia and many movements everywhere in the world. Disappointing decision....

I'm not sure where "global communism" and "fascist state headed by Vladimir Putin" intersect, but it sure ain't anywhere sane. Defederation from the Lemmygrad school of insanity seems like a grand old time.

preemptively hitting my last resort button

“These organizations constitute the modern imperial order, with the United States at its heart - we are not fooled by the term “rules-based international order.” It is in the Left’s interest for these organizations to be demolished.

That's pro Putin propaganda, not leftist politics.

I'm from lemmy.ml, so I shouldn't really have a say in this matter, but I just wanted to give some of my thoughts.

There's no problem in defederating from instances. However, I'm a bit confused by the reasoning given for the defederation. The points highlighted appear to simply be some normal leftist and anti-imperialist ideas, and I fail to see how it signifies intent to violate the rules of the lemmy.world instance (besides maybe point 7, if we were to consider supporting governments deemed "authoritarian" by the west as also being the same as calling for the opression for the people those governments are accused of oppressing (Which I don't believe is valid reason since that's simply not the case. For example, people who reject the idea that there is a campaign against the uyghur ethnic group in China, generally don't do so because they hate that ethnic group, but because they believe the claims are false)).

If leftist instances such as hexbear are problematic, I don't see why instances like lemmy.ml aren't, whose description some time ago was the following:

A community of leftist privacy and FOSS enthusiasts, run by Lemmy’s developers

Some time ago they removed the word «leftist» in the description, but very much still allow people who hold similar beliefs as the ones you highlighted to use the instance and to express themselves.

If this was a specific-purpose non-politics instance like many are, I'd say power to you. But for an general-purpose instance that advertises itself as being:

A generic Lemmy server for everyone to use.

Lemmy.world is a general-purpose Lemmy instance of various topics, for the entire world to use.

...then there's a need for some serious self-examination. Preemptively blocking thousands of users, and talking about blocking another long-lasting substantial community because some other community made comments about them? This is disappointing, this does not sound properly thought-out.

You're right, defederation should only be considered as a last resort. Not as a broad-spectrum discriminatory first action.

Permanently Deleted

i dont like extremists on my feed, good work

I don't agree with their sh*t and whatnot, but this move seems to me like "We will defederate you because your political beliefs are not the same as ours." What a shame, Lemmyworld admins.

What a spez move. Pre-emptively de-federating is just a bad move, no other way to look at it. They're a very diverse group and generally much kinder than most lemmy users. At the very least you should've tested federation for a day or two to see how the interactions play out. But anybody here can go over there and see for themself how nice they can be even when disagreeing, which they do a lot among themselves.

Also where in the Code of Conduct does it say the only ideology allowed is liberalism? Going the way of Reddit with vague justifications and arbitrary decisions will make the administration a lot of profit some day, but there's a reason people left that one.

Ok, I'm out of here. This is my last post on lemmy.world. I created a new account in a server that (hopefully) does not use defederation for political reasons.

I'm just sorry that I donated here.

Well this is unfortunate. Seems like a mistake tbh. 20k people is a huge loss.

I'll have to make alt accounts soon if account migration isn't a feature.

edit: This is reminding me of when people were calling Lemmy Devs 'tankues'. Are we being sabotaged again?

As an instance owner myself some of this is concerning. I understand why lemmy.world would want to defederate from them. I won't defederate on my instance at this point, but if personal attacks start to happen or rules get broken, then it will be considered.

Hexbear is for left-unity and has users that range from all spectrums of the left. The clear message here is, if your on the left, lemmy.world is not the place for you. If you support the free exchange of ideas, lemmy.world is not the place for you. The mods couldn’t even be bothered to lie about which rules hexbear users were supposedly going to violate.

Defederation should only be considered as a last resort. We made the decision to preemptively defederate from Hexbear for these reasons.

Defederation should only be considered as a last resort. We made the decision to preemptively defederate from Hexbear for these reasons.

Defederation should only be considered as a last resort. We made the decision to preemptively defederate from Hexbear for these reasons.

a last resort. preemptively defederate

a last resort. preemptively defederate

a last resort. preemptively defederate

a last resort. preemptively defederate

Oooh let the spicy fedi instance drama begin. The best part of decentralization!

People are way too quick to defederate. Let the users use the platform and ban them if they break rules. Arguing isn't against the rules as far as I'm aware as long as it's in the right threads. You think this is going to keep users out? No its just going to drive then to another instance

I guess lemmy.world really is like reddit.

Your bias is showing. Why is dismantling western propaganda a bad thing?

Defederation should only be considered as a last resort.

Clearly you are not following your own advice here.

The whole reason I joined lemmy.world is that it was a general instance that federated with lemmygrad. Oh well, enjoy your liberal echo chamber as it devolves into reddit-level groupthink and "fuck china" spam.

Oh boy, less than 1 month here and my first lemmy-verse drama.

Only thing different is, anyone that doesn't agree with it can literally just.... Fuck off to wherever they want

This makes me feel pretty good about my decision to choose lemmy.world as my first instance. There is zero reason to believe Hexbear users will engage in good faith, in fact, the evidence presented in this statement clearly illustrates that they intend to troll and generally derail discussions. Preemptive defederation in this case is the prudent move. Keep up the good work, Admins.

Loving all the hexbear alt-accounts in the comments here ❤

Btw, if people didnt understand this. I AM being ironical...

“The West’s role in the world, through organizations such as NATO, the IMF, and the World Bank - among many others - are deeply harmful to the billions of people living both inside and outside of their imperial core.”

“These organizations constitute the modern imperial order, with the United States at its heart - we are not fooled by the term “rules-based international order.” It is in the Left’s interest for these organizations to be demolished. When and how this will occur, and what precisely comes after, is the cause of great debate and discussion on this site, but it is necessary for a better world.”

Well these are totally true and the decision quite disappointing.

These comments are wild. At the end of the day, if we really dislike the actions of our instance, we can just change to a different one, or self host. Does it suck? Yes.

I don't think I can reasonably expect someone else to tailor their own instance that they created and paid for to my specific interests. A previous instance wasn't to my liking, so I just made a new account somewhere else. Isn't that supposed to be the whole point?

"If everyone defederates with everyone there will be no content". Well, it's a good thing that it's not everyone defederating with everyone.

I think that maybe the people who are really upset about defederating should try to host their own instances and act as admins for those instances. I totally understand wanting to do your own thing with the amount of time and effort that stuff requires.

Personally? I'm still pleasantly suprised/happy that so many people have created instances that they opened to the world. I also feel lucky that people are putting in a lot of effort to make places that anyone -even complete strangers- could join. I'm happy that there are a wide variety of instances.

I read this mostly like "they seem like a bunch of assholes so we're defederating so we don't have to interact with a bunch of assholes". Cause the folks on Hexbear seem intense compared to lemmygrad, etc. I know it's really the anti-NATO stuff, but eh.

I don't like not getting content though, so I'm really not in favor of this move. But I'm also an ex-redditor who liked to lurk communities I don't agree with since it's not like the comments are going to jump out and get you. (Of course, as an American I think I get hit by more far right than far left, though they agree on some of the weirdest conspiracy shit sometimes).

Also it's not like I can't have multiple accounts across the fediverse, lol.

I appreciate the thought that went into this decision and I think this is an example of defederating being a good idea.

Ok. It’s been nice. I’ll find a new instance.

Not a lemmy.world user, so just sharing my thoughts/ideas on this at a general level

1. Mutual Respect Pacts --- Could instances not federate by agreeing to moderate their own users that breach the other instance's CoCs/rules? For example. Lemmy.world finds a hexbear user to have breached lemmy.world rules. Temporarily bans them from the community and reports it to hexbear. Hexbear are expected to act against this user (either with a warning, temporary ban etc). And of course vice versa. Obviously, should the situation become unworkable, more drastic action can take place, but it seems like a reasonable approach to trying to retain federation between groups that might not see eye to eye but want to work out a way to remain civil with each other.
2. Foyers for engagement --- Some here seem to have problems with the loss of lemmy.world's apparent "neutrality" in defederating from hexbear. However one feels about lemmy.world ... having a space in which ideologically opposed people can engage in civil and well moderated interaction is still valuable. Maybe an instance dedicated to politically/ideologically diverse/broad federation but strict civility requirements would be valuable. A kind of foyer or public square in which you can seek out diverse and controversial opinions. Lemmy.world doesn't need to be that for it to exist on the fediverse. And such a space living on a dedicated instance with its own approach to (de-)federation would probably make sense.
3. Community management as a user --- While defederation is part of life on the fediverse, the management of communities as a user does get somewhat more complex with more fracturing. The platform can probably help, with user defined multi-communities and sorting algorithms that surface posts from smaller communities.
4. Self hosting --- Self hosting is the direct way to opt-out of another person's admin choices. Spacehost is providing managed hosting for lemmy (and soon many other fediverse platforms) (see also the core dev's mastodon account). Generally, IMO, single-user entities will make more sense over time on the fediverse. Of course, if you have the skills, you can just do it yourself.

I think it's important to make note of the fact that they were banned on Reddit for good reason. As a community, they have always been toxic and would consistently brigade and harass other communities on Reddit that even remotely disagreed with them on anything. There was a consistent issue in Jewish focused Reddit subs with users of theirs starting fights about Zionism on random Jewish posts and generally harassing to random people that would be remotely critical of communism. They would behave in a similar way to how exploding-heads did prior to being mass defederated, specifically going into threads and brigading/downvoting and attempting to sway discussions in their favor in bad faith.

You are defederating from Hexbear because you don't want people in lemmy.world to see opinions you disagree with?

Didn't know worshipping NATO was a requirement for this instance.

Ignoring the fact that most complaining here are likely members of that instance, I don't understand users' insistence that they shouldn't be defederated. Are most ignoring the numerous examples of Reddit subs users inferred "likely won't be a big deal" becoming obviously problematic down the line, with the inevitable ban/quarantine occuring with most upset it wasn't dealt with from the start?

Honestly, I don't mind this considering the examples given.

I am also unsure about lemmygrad, as although I dislike the instance, (and a few parts of db0 as well) I do agree with defederation being an extreme option.

What is it with Lemmy and far-[left | right] politics...

As you know, I'm anti-defed. But in this instance I'm with admins. Hexbear is a cesspool for genocidal lunatics.

Judging by their responses in this thread it sounds like you made the right move, go back to /b/ crybabies

It's always difficult. On the one hand it's not great to de-federate based on political opinion. After all, I'd have no issues with these people posting memes and other content, adding non-political insight in non-political communities, and even discussing politics in political communities. An echo chamber doesn't really help anyone after all. However, these people seem to actively look down on anyone even slightly more right wing as them, and as shown in the examples they also seem likely to aggressively push their views in places where that would not be appreciated. To me defederation seems like the good call, at least temporarily, to ensure that moderators won't have their hands full. But it would be nice to see at least attempts to federate with these extremists, just to give them a chance to play nice. It would be better in the grand scheme of the fediverse to keep things as connected as possible and to avoid echo chambers.

😞 adding another 119,000 names to the black book of communism

Also, you linked a post from a year ago, from a user who hasn't even posted in a year? are you serious?

I guess I'm back at join-lemmy.org to find a new instance. Any recommendations?

Not a fan of this defederation - I wanted to at least have fun dunking on them

y'all are incredibly embarassing

I respect the autonomy of you admins to federate with who you choose, but as a user, I would prefer not to defederate, and let the votes moderate their 'contributions'. And, of course, defederate if there are too many rule breakers and/or bots. But I also realize the potential hassle this could pose for you admins, so I sympathize with your decision even if I'm not in complete agreement.

Wow, I've been on lemmy for a month after Sync died and now I'm already seeing the start of its demise. I haven't heard of Hexbear before and don't really have interest in it, but pre-emptive defeterating is a bit much. I don't think it's good for the fediverse either. It'll probably end up renamed to clique - verse.

You are being illogical. You claim that Hexbear will not respect instance rules, yet the linked post on Hexbear has their admins explicitly begging their users to respect other servers' rules. The truth is that you do not want a large quantity of users with heterodox opinions mingling with your own. This is why you block Hexbear but not the smaller Lemmygrad. Instead, I suggest you add to your Code of Conduct that lemmy.world is an anti-communist server and will not tolerate Marxist-Leninists. That way you will no longer be hypocritical, and you will probably also make a lot of your users happy!

edit: I see I am being downvoted - clearly by Leninists angry that I suggest a divorce! However, your emotions will not silence my pure logic!

There's a difference between liberal left (which is what a majority of rational, secular people belive in), honest far-left, which is about socialist economics, eat the rich, BLM/anti-racism, anti-cop, gender abolition, human rights, actual anti-colonialism etc. and the kind of "far-left" that is "anti-west", which isn't really about honestly discussing these issues, but rather about dividing people, being contrarian to established things that work and make sense, and trying to paint everyone who disagrees even a tiny bit as the scum of humanity. On the other hand, any defederation further enlarges the rift between communities and makes being informed on what others think more cumbersome. Also, they think Beehaw, a place that is supposed to be inclusive, is fascist? I am not sure how it is. It's mostly left and liberal, really.

Lemmy.world, you are positively glowing right now :3

It never ceases to amaze me how threatened liberals are by tiny groups of commies. And of course, the fact that a bunch of liberals are busy denigrating the very commies that made their migration away from capitalist Reddit possible in the first place is, unfortunately, very par for the course for liberals.

Defederation is happening based on Hexbear's potential comments and behavior when there are some absolutely unhinged lemmyworld comments in this very thread.

• Responding to hard hitting questions like "Have you read Karl Marx?" with "fuck off"
• Accusing anyone "defending" China or Russia of being paid by China and Russia ala the George Soros conspiracy weirdos
• Hexbears are all "nutjobs that justify terrorism"
• Being presented with a study showing a higher quality of life in socialist countries gets "you are full of shit and a fucking moron, get fucked" and "you lot are brain-dead" and "Do you practice being this stupid or does it come naturally" and "bootlickers"
• an incredibly racist remark about Chinese people "are not fucking yellow anyway" (link was borked and comments aren't working)

But it's Hexbear that "wants to be douches."

Good call

Gotta say I'm not surprised that the admins of a "nuetral" instance preemptively ban a socialist instance that's telling its users to follow the rules on other instances while it dragged its feet to ban a nazi instance which was actually causing problems.

Signed,

Hexbear user since inception

Steve Huffman commends you on upholding his moderation policy.

Defederation/Banning in the name of containing "different viewpoints" is just Reddit all over again

Ffs! This going to be an Enlightened Centrist instance?

It's one thing to defederate from an anti-imperialist instance that's specifically intended for trolling including with coordinated bot attacks, but another to shun one of the biggest instances on Lemmy just because you disagree with their ideology!

I'm not a fan of tankies myself (especially since they're hypocrites who would denounce western imperialism in one sentence and defend USSR/Christofascist current Russia imperialism in the next, but IMO, defederating from them reeks of censorship of ideas rather than consequences of/defence against actions.

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Right, so because a community has different views than the leftists you all think it's your place to "protect" users preemptively without discussion or reason, basically fucking worse than Reddit?

You'd better think long and hard on that.

I would like to thank everyone who came to lemmy.world and ended up recreating Reddit, warts and all. Looking forward to your announcement to kill 3rd party apps next week.

Politics ruining everything again

This is too quick of a movement towards defederation. Except in the most extreme of circumstances, it should be up to individual users whether they want to engage with other communities, and users can always block communities they find objectionable. It is not in the best interest of users to treat them as being incapable of making their own reasoned decisions about this kind of thing.

Fortunately, thanks to the wonders of the fediverse, I can just make a new account on a different instance and start engaging with Lemmy that way. Anyone have any recommendations on alternatives to lemmy.world?

L.

And that's why I'm glad my main accounts are not on world, which has just been a different flavored, smaller Reddit since its inception.

Good 👍

We really should have a method of banning remote individual users from your own instance. I'm as anti tankie as they come, but defederating isn't the answer. It's just continually shrinking and sharding the fediverse in a way that will hinder our growth.

Their instance also seems to be offline.

these people really crossing the line between "ideology" and mental illness.

They have a point. But as a Filipino who's very concerned about a possible Chinese invasion (though I live far down south so my main concerns are whether Mindanao regions' budgets can handle all the Taiwanese refugees and movers from Luzon) I'm very skeptical of their actual agenda.

What is the point of having over positivity? Let's have some discussion with those people and roast them. This is censorship. Any criminal activities then defederation is fine. Just because their opinions are not liked defederating for that?

Is it not possible we just have a social media platform where we talk abouts hobbies and computers and not evangelise our political beliefs?

Stopping by this thread to offer a window into the Hexbear response to this statement. This thread is all serious and miserable, but we're having a great time over there laughing about all of this and dunking on the worst of the comments.

Edit: Oh and also here and here.

PS: I am absolutely loving the downvoting, it's hilariously cute; I legit can't stop giggling right now

You guys really just want people who think the same way as you on your instance. You should clearly state that instead of letting people waste their time here.

I don't think this is the right way to go if another Server advice's its users to engage with everybody else on the fediverse in the best manner. The point here picked only seem to reflect the world views of the admin which cant be discussed or challenged. I guess this is fine because everybody can search for another server but if the server team here cares about its users opinions I'd like to voice my disagreement and would love to have this decision maybe put up to a vote / test period or something similar. Even If I will switch to another instance, thank you for providing this server.

Curious to me how when I look at this post on other instances, other comments seem to be on top. Not sure if that's a side effect of the DDOS shit or if it's a really great example of the version of Lemmy you see from one instance is different than you see from another.

I'd love to see Lemmygrad cut off, it's full of propaganda and malicious users.

They're definitely not saving the World from anything. They just want to be douchebags online. Full block, full stop!

Thank you very much for this statement.

Please add lemmy.ml to your consideration of instances to defederate, one only needs to look at the recent post here: https://lemmy.ml/post/2629962

to see how the wokies have infested that instancce.

I applaud the lemmy.world admins for taking a strong stance against the wokies they get to have all the internet spaces, reddit, mastodon, X, facebook, etc. creating a safe space for us to have political, news, economic discussions is the right step. I was worried at first because lemmy-world was trying to be non-political but you cannot be non-political either woke & broke or tidy & mighty.

Woke tankies will never stop unless you have a strong team of admins and mods making decisions without the baggage of the userbase. Like the best countries in the world they have a leader that is able to asses the situation and use their judgement to take decisive action.

Lemmy is a bit shit, isn't it. That's a shame.

I don't understand why Lemmy is constructed in a manner where instances are automatically federated with other instances by default. Wouldn't it make more sense, from a security standpoint, to change that so instances are automatically defederated with all other instances by default?

Thats like creating a new social media account where you are automatically friends with everyone else, and you have to selectively remove people as they become problems.

If opposition to Western propaganda and Western imperialism is against your rules, it's certainly your right to defederate. I made the right choice jumping ship from .world back when you refused to preemptively defederate from Threads!

On the one hand defederating from an instance based on their ideology is probably not the best precedent to set,

On the other, they're tankies who've ate up the state capitalist and red fascist propaganda hook, line, and sinker and are trying to associate themselves with leftism, making the rest of us look bad. (If I were more conspiracy minded I'd say that this is an intentional attempt to discredit leftist politics.) So really I think it balances out. Personally I'd rather users be able to block whole instances, instead of having admins make that decision, but seeing as that's not available this is the next best thing.

Based move

Good. Fuck tankies, lmao

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sounds like something run by Russian intelligence

Good shit admins. Tankies gonna tankie, but I'm glad they aren't going to tankie here.

good decision. do not want the red fash to spread to other instances

Hahaha lemmy world.

Too left, you never be right. Block everything that is not left, eh?

So they are a bunch of brigading hardcore ideologists that want to convert others. Now I know why they were banned from my instance from the very beginning. Good for you guys that you acted before it got a wider problem in the first place.

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It's interesting how much right wingers and fake communists hate the "libs".

Anyone can see that liberalism is inherently more aligned with leftist/communist/anarchist properties and cannot exist under capitalism.

Hexbear servers gonna see some Ukrainian drones into the window soon.