Thoughts on why small talk is so uniquely painful
Thoughts on why small talk is so uniquely painful
Image text: @agnieszkasshoes: "Part of what makes small talk so utterly debilitating for many of us who are neurodivergent is that having to smile and lie in answer to questions like, "how are you?" is exhausting to do even once, and society makes us do it countless times a day."
@LuckyHarmsGG: "It's not just the lie, it's the energy it takes to suppress the impulse to answer honestly, analyze whether the other person wants the truth, realize they almost certainly don't, and then have to make the DECISION to lie, every single time. Over and over. Decision fatigue is real"
@agnieszkasshoes: "Yes! The constant calculations are utterly exhausting - and all under the pressure of knowing that if you get it "wrong" you will be judged for it!"
My addition: For me, in addition to this, more specifically it's the energy to pull up that info and analyze how I am. Like I don't know the answer to that question and that's why it's so annoying. Now I need to analyze my day, decide what parts mean what to me and weigh the average basically, and then decide if that's appropriate to share/if the person really wants to hear the truth of that, then pull up my files of pre-prepared phrases for the question that fits most closely with the truth since not answering truthfully is close to impossible for me.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CvPSP-2xU4h/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
I'm old, but it took a lot of time to network/socialize. I know there's books/material to socialize now. I have learned to grey rock, and just go neutral with giving a response to most situations.
This is a learned thing. No one teached us this back in the 80s or earlier. Life isn't easy, we learn as we get older. Yes, it's hard, but if some random person asks about your day, just say "great, how about you?". Put the focus back on them. Let them talk. Just listen. Oh, their grandma passed away last week? "Damn, I'm sorry to hear that. Let's remember her legacy, and know that she lived to her fullest."
We are all still animals at the end of the day. You can make mistakes! Learn from them, and move on. Learn as you go.
Oh hi, I don't know any other people like me IRL and never thought to seek out an online community till I joined Lemmy.
Gets significantly less shit (or at least less messy) as you get older doesn't it? 🙂
Everything has a model. Ours just have a significantly higher degree of complexity due to the higher dimensionality of our neural "networks" and our gestalt learning.
We also don't seem to benefit from neurological canalisation as much as neuro typical people do so we start waaaaay behind everyone else.
But over time, maybe late 20s was when it finally felt like I was catching up/caught up in a lot social/interpersonal things. So what you're saying really resonates.
Hell of a journey huh
I just answer honestly. I don't have time to be a fake person.
You can be honest in this society if you are exactly average and have no opinions others would dislike. :)
Yeah you can answer however you want just keep it short.
"I'm having a tough week, but I'm working through it. How are you?"
My problem with this is that while I don't like lying I also really don't want to talk about my personal problems with someone I'm not intimately close to. So honestly, I would prefer if people who aren't close to me don't ask the question in the first place.
Like I'm not going to tell you that I'm having mental health issues this week and I'm about to lose my shit because everything feels overwhelming and I'm not sure it's worth it anymore. So no I'm not really "getting through it" right now. But it also is going to be very challenging for me to lie to you right now also.
So maybe don't presume that we have the right to that information in the first place and just say something in greeting that doesn't require someone to divulge, honestly or not, private information about themselves.
I'm going to try to implement a "Hi, hope you're having a nice day" instead of how are you to people I'm not close with in practicing this.
"I am functioning within established parameters."
LOW ON CYAN
Seeing all of these posts that I agree with in this community is really opening my eyes…
My 4 year old daughter was diagnosed with autism and I’ve been learning so much just through her and some of the readings I’ve done.
Excuse my ignorance, but is this a trait that is passed down? If so, I’m trying to figure out how did I make it this far in my life without the proper coping mechanisms.
Yes, it is genetic. If you are a woman, that makes a lot of sense as the diagnostic criteria is only now starting to catch girls more frequently, even though it's still very flawed. Girls (and non-white people) are missed because the diagnostic criteria was developed studying young white boys exclusively. It turns out symptoms of autism are very variable and girls are much more likely to mask their symptoms and fly under the radar as just shy or quirky.
Here's Kate Kahle on why autism is missed in girls https://youtu.be/UI6kObHls-4
Here's a YouTube channel from a mom who was late diagnosed after her child was diagnosed https://youtu.be/zoXmrGtybts
Autism Instagram talking about how the older generations of their families are all full of autism and just don't know it https://www.instagram.com/p/CvMwpDNxiPL/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://www.instagram.com/p/Ct1VlsMxrSn/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://www.instagram.com/p/CmFFZuDMjXJ/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Scientific paper on heritability of autism "heritability was estimated to be 83%, suggesting that genetic factors may explain most of the risk for ASD. " https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5818813/
Wow, thanks for all the information. I’m a black male and I would have to say that it’s not really talked about at all, because it’s a sign of seeming “weak”.
That YouTube video you linked hit home and explains a lot of things that my ex partner did such as not taking care of her hygiene properly, and I just couldn’t understand at all.
I’m thinking mostly that she was autistic and I’m starting to see that I demonstrate some signs, but not as much as she did. I’ve already started medication for anxiety and I can tell a world of difference in my daily interactions with people.
Dan's final comment succinctly calls out the situations which irk me the most. You asked me how I'm doing. I answered honestly... and now you're going to judge me for that? Yeah, nah. I'd rather just not answer at all, thanks, instead of dealing with that bullcrap.
Which, over the course of time, led me to the analytical conclusion that more often than not, most people don't actually care how -- or even if -- I answer at all, unless I make the "mistake" of answering honestly when I'm not feeling perfectly peachy. That's why I almost always answer with something vaguely nonsensical when asked how I'm doing by random strangers, such as, "Howdy, howdy!" Most of them are so locked into their autopilot that they only ever hear that first syllable, and immediately think I just asked them how they're doing... so they reflexively toss back their obligatory, "Oh, I'm fine." Once in a blue moon, one of them will skip a beat and realize what I actually said just after their reply, making the passing interaction vaguely uncomfortable for them. Which, you know... is actually just fine by me, since that's how I feel almost all the time.
In Finland nobody asks you that and if somebody does, everybody gives a direct and correct answer. It is one of the perks in any Finn that makes it hard for us to discuss with Americans if we're not used to them.
I've never wanted to move to Finland more (and I already want that, a lot) lol
(E: from UK, we also think Americans are weird, but still have this superficial politeness bullshit that gets so much in the way of communication)
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This is why my default response is now either “alive”, or in the case of “how’s it going?”, “it’s going”
You could say "I feel the way I usually feel" (which is what I always say).
- It's truthful (probably).
- It confuses the other one, giving you a second to breathe.
- It could be perceived as funny (as unconventional) by others, making you be seen positive.
I believe that part of the problem - at least in my case - is that typical person immediately sees 3-4 possible generic answers to such questions.
For me... It's like opening Pandora Box and have the brain flooded with not just answers but long chains of interactions, where none leads to anything positive. A "simple" question is like like an abyss that's gonna suck you down and exhaust you while you're trying to escape it so much, that you feel like lying down and trying to remember that air is meant to be inhaled again after it's exhaled...
There was this scene in the original Terminator movie, where the robot sees the spinning list of possible answers to "cat question". For me, this list doesn't stop. Even when the conversation is already finished, the list continues to spin.
The "typical" person doesn't see 3 or 4 answers, they have prepared a few generic answers to those small questions, and anyone can do that. Unless you're really feeling different, and have enough intimacy with the asker to be honest, it's just a game of tic-tac-toe that anyone can learn.
How are you doing? Fine, how's life treating you?
Nice weather, eh? I've had better.
Etc.
Nobody is saying that neurodivergent people can't do small talk, it's that it is oftentimes a dreadful experience for them. You do understand the difference, yes?
It's a bit like telling someone genetically predisposed to disliking cilantro because it tastes like soap to "just eat cliantro... everyone can do it!"
Serious question from a non neurodivergent. Why don't you tell the truth? What's wrong with that?
Sorry, just for me to understand because I have no experience
Imagine if you're working as a cashier and you say to your customer, "hey, what's up?" and then they start a ten minutes monologue about everything that's happened to them today and how that's made them feel. You're just sitting there like "I'm at work, I'm just being polite, you're holding up a line of customers, I'll get in trouble with my boss for being so slow, etc.". All you wanted was for the customer to say "Yeah, you?" and move on.
In the UK and America, and probably most places, saying "how are you?" or "what's up?" is the equivalent of saying "hello" or "I would like to start a conversation with you" -- it's very rare that you actually want to know about the other person's day. For a lot of autistic people though, we take those questions literally.
Edit to add: you can't always assume that people don't care about how you are. Got in trouble with my doctor for just saying "fine" when he was actually asking what is wrong with me. So it always feels like you have to make this calculation of what does the person really mean? I understand that neuro-typical people just sort of magically know the context in a way that autistic people don't - I think it's just a lived experience where we both have to say "I don't understand how that is, but I trust that it's the way you experience things" and move on.
The Truth? About how I am? How the heck am I supposed to do that? I suppose I could tell you my general level of energy. I could tell you the character of my thoughts and what sort of things caught my attention recently. I could think back to when I last had a clearly identifiable emotion, what I was thinking at the time, and if it's still relevant. I could tell you about physical sensations in my body - do I feel tense, is my head clear, is my pulse elevated, are my ears ringing, how grounded do I feel? Or how I'm experiencing the outside world - how is the temperature, the humidity, the light, the noise? I could think about things that happened recently, or where I am now generally in life, or my worries or ideas for the future, and does any of that relate to how I am in the here and now. And eventually, maybe, after far more intimacy and far more uncertainty than you'd likely be comfortable with, I might tentatively offer some emotional label as to how I am.
Can't vouch for its accuracy tho. I just inhabit this brain, I don't know everything that goes on here.
The truth about how I am? Because they don't care. They don't actually want a long infodump about personal details of my life.
I just give short honest answer. If they are interested - might turn into a good conversation if not, I don't care. But I'm also not neurodivergent - just not too much into small talk.
Honestly, I have had thoughts of just unloading any baggage on my mind onto the person initiating small talk, with the goal of making them uncomfortable.
Stranger: Hello sir, how are y-
Me: My day was fucking horrible. First, my car caught a flat tire, then my cat vomited all over my carpet, and then this random person on the internet who I don't know called me a jollock and blah blah blah...It'd make them feel how I feel when strangers come up and talk to me.
I’m not neurodivergent, but small talk is fundamentally a conversation with no other purpose than to maintain, build and express social relationships. There’s no substantive information being passed. So I guess it is a concentrated dose of some people’s worst nightmare.
By the way - there’s nothing wrong in a brief truthful answer if you a feeling a bit down, or you pulled a muscle in your neck or whatever
I am neurodivergent, so maybe you can explain for me how a conversation devoid of content builds a relationship.
"How are you?"
"Good/fine/ok, how are you?"
"I'm good."It's the same forced, templated script everyone uses 100 times a day just to navigate being alive, and will be forgotten as soon as you walk away.
It made more sense when I started thinking of humans as animals. In that context it's like dogs sniffing butts or ants touching antennae when they meet. I eventually settled on a few generic responses that felt less fake than "fine" (idk why "fine" rankles me so much but "not too bad" doesn't, but eh) but didn't elicit further questions, and that made it slightly easier.
Many people like Americans say as a trained friendly greeting "hi, how are you". Other people like Chinese say "hi, have you eaten (had rice) yet". They both simply need to be viewed as greetings. Neither actually want to know your full life story of your eating habits or the many bad things that may have happened to you in your day week or life.
Don't try it here in Germany. Often people will try and test you and tell you a long story of many bad things to see if you "care". But it is in fact missing an important cultural contex. It is not that they don't care if you have eaten or that your wife is dieing of cancer... It is that is not what they were truly asking. It should be interpreted simply as a friendly greeting such as good morning. It is as inappropriate to responding to good morning with, "no it isn't. It's a terrible morning. I had diarrhea this morning and my cat died". The lady at the grocery store doesn't need these details and was simply being nice.
that's the point of the post. ND folks tend to be bothered by this phenomenon. It's not that we don't already understand what you're saying. Many have commented here saying what you've just said, and like, yeah 100% and that's the issue. We get that it's a cultural norm that no one actually wants a real answer to.
But autistic folks have a brain that is wired to take things at face value. We take things literally. We struggle to ignore the literal meanings of words and feel compelled to respond with our true response to that literal interpretation. We don't want to live constantly replacing the literal meaning of words with the NT meaning. This post is one example of the seemingly constant game of NT society that does not mean the words that they say. We are tired! Say what you mean! And stop treating us like we don't get it. We fucking get it. And we think it's fucking stupid and don't want to play.
Sorry. This post keeps getting me in trouble bc I get riled up. I'm not yelling at * you * I'm just yelling to the sky with my fist shaking in the air.
I understand. And that's understandable. My comment was directed to society as a whole, and specifically non autistic people.
For me, I'm moderately ok with the whole task and "lying", though I'm in a "faint praise" culture where I can more or less express myself somewhat adequately through "polite faint praise".
The problem I struggle with is that I really have no idea if the "small talk" is going well or not. Just can't get a read on most people as to what they were hoping to achieve with the small talk and whether any of my actions were well received or came off as rude. So it's an anxiety minefield to start off any conversation where I often carry plenty of doubts into the rest of the conversation.
If people were more happily like "Actually I feel X because of Y ... but that's ok happy to get started with stuff now" then I'd be much better off most of the time.
What I think I have determined people are doing with small talk is that they feel obligated to talk to people even if they have nothing to say. So there are these cultural scripts of discussion topics that are considered standard and appropriate. They aren't particularly interested in the other person, just in fulfilling the cultural script. So as long as you perform your part in the script they are happy to be seen engaging with another human doing the appropriate motions.
Here's my attempt at a hopefully helpful explanation:
Almost always the small talk itself isn't meant to be a "real" conversation. It's deliberately surface level and repetitive because of this. Think of it like a verbal handshake. A standard greeting that is essentially "I am initiating a conversation" but with an extra layer obscuring that because communication is complicated and there's a ton happening under the surface.
There's a little judgment step prior to engaging in actual conversation to establish that a conversation is or isn't about to happen, if this person is friendly, are they communicating on the same level, etc. The small talk has essentially lost its literal meaning entirely and is all subtext to establish these things. "How's it going?" is just them initiating the conversion protocol, and so taking it literally is like sending back an error message.
If you feel saying "good" to a question like "how's it going" is lying, it might be helpful to think of the question as not actually a question but just a collection of random sounds we've assigned to starting up a conversation and the replies are no different. They aren't actually asking, the words don't even mean that in their head, and your answer just needs to fall into the right parameters that show you're doing the same. Or just have a few "canned" responses that are ready to go so they don't need much thought or sarcastic so you don't feel like it's lying. I'm a fan of "oh you know, livin' the dream" or "I'm surviving" for these sorts of things.
If they actually want real conversation, it'll come after the small talk has established the connection.
My favorite example of how correct this is is how conversations often go with my friends I haven't spoken to in awhile. We will perform the cursory social protocol "hey how are you" "good how are you?" "Good thanks, what's new with you?" "Not much, you?" "Not much" ... And then we often go back to, how have you been? Which is the signal that we've transitioned into the real question seeking the real conversation. Even though it's kind of all the same question in different forms.