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  • There is certainly something going on. Badempanada made a few videos on the subject that I thought were pretty decent. Ethnic cleansing is a bad faith and hyperbolic assessment imo, but there very much were(are?) facilities for re-education by China's own admission. From what I have seen the facilities are very reminiscent of the nordic model style prisons, but those are only the facilities that China has allowed journalists to enter.

    It's certainly not a topic I bring up when discussing China as its virtually unverifiable (and this to some degree would reinforce the idea that it's a fabricated propaganda hit piece). Anecdotes go about as far as you can throw them, as do guided tours. I would say I'm most curious what kind of re-education was(is?) being done? If its to re-educate people advocating for the destruction of the country, that is at the very least not something out of the ordinary for a state to do(and honestly very progressive in comparison to other countries that would torture you and lock you away for life).

    • What was good about the Badempanada videos? He basically just went over wikipedia and was like "Maybe something? China's probably bad and hiding something." Just because he didn't go full lib doesn't mean it has any value in the discussion.

      There was never any ethnic cleansing going on. There was an attempt to crack down on wahabist extremist movements, and the Chinese government ended up pulling people in for vocational training even when they weren't at risk, completely disrupting their lives, and there were probably tens of thousands of people, maybe hundreds of thousands, who had their entire life put on pause or uprooted when they didn't need to. This would've been disruptive to communities and would've caused a lot of strife. Being "arrested" despite doing nothing wrong is awful.

      If China's goal was rehabilitation, as seems to be the case, I don't see why they would build some "potemkin prisons" for journalists that aim for rehabilitation, but secretly have cruel and violent prisons (that actively harm rehabilitation goals) everywhere else. Their government is pragmatic, to a fault even, and I just don't see why they would actively go against their own goals (stop Islamic terror attacks) just to be pointlessly villainous like a cartoon character.

      The problem here, as tends to be the problem when China does things, is they tend to cast too wide a net, and pull in too many people who had nothing to do with the problem they're trying to solve.

      • He did more than that. He showed an alleged victim that claimed their passport was taken away when interviewed by western media, and then shortly afterwards was interviewed by Chinese media saying the exact opposite. He also showed a site full of alleged victims that in his mind "had nothing to gain" (although imo, that's an error on his part. Always something to gain)

        Still, whats so hard to understand about people being skeptical? People are seeing China use its state power in ways similar to other countries, and naturally, assume China is abusing that power...like other countries.

        I've never been particularly charitable towards China like my peers seem to be, or any AES country for that matter. So ya know, disclaimer of bias. Im still being far, far more charitable than I would be if you told me a western nation was doing this. China is supposed to be the better country, that doesn't mean they are in every case.

        Anyways, if it's just for extremists, fine. That's still something i can't fully verify with my current level of knowledge.

        (edit: This comment on the OG post was helpful in easing some of my reservations if others are at all curious. https://hexbear.net/post/4982712/6169175 )

    • I'll +1 this (not the Badempanada videos or anything but your general sentiment)

      To me the problems with Xianjing and the Uyghurs are something I HATE whenever a lib or conservative brings up to me as some sort of gotcha about China, because in my mind there is no 'right' side or objectively true stance.

      Like do I believe that western media and governments have a vested interest in supporting a separatist movement like the Uyghurs' in a country that does not align with their goals/views? Yes - any one of us can probably name a half-dozen different countries the US has done basically this to in the last 70 years.

      But do I believe the US/NATO/etc is airdropping Ugyhurs into Xianjing to protest about perceived violations to their human rights/dignity/etc? Not really. Terrorists and separatist movements don't really form out of nowhere & terrorists usually do want something. I think the idea of some Western power going "yeah if you convince the west that china is killing 100 billion Uyghurs every year to build their high speed rail network, we'll help you form your own country" is basically worthless to most people who aren't already skeptic of western media/propaganda and understand how manufacturing consent works.

      The same goes for like, linking someone to a medium post that debunks reporting about some labor camp or whatnot - it's all well and good to link to such sources, but when you try to give that as a source to someone whose idea of a 'source' means 'large publication' it bounces off.

      All this to say that it is something I refuse to even really discuss with my lib friends because NONE of us have been to China or Xianjing and none of us speak the language or can read it. It is impossible for me to say whether or not China is doing ethnic cleansing or even whether or not they're putting Uyghurs in labor camps that are probably not a good time; so why would I bother getting into arguments about it both online and offline? Lol.

      Again, for the record I wanna say I hope & don't think China's doing ethnic cleansing. I do think that there probably is some good reason that the Uyghurs as a population want to separate that goes deeper than just 'it's a color revolution being supported by the West'. In any case I don't live in China and have never been to Xianjing & have never spoken to a Uyghur so who is to say really

      • The separatist movement is literally a Salafist movement that wants to create a Uighur caliphate. It is Uighur ISIS, which is obviously not an organic Uighur movement because Salafist ideology is from Saudi Arabia and directly contradicts the Uighur interpretation of Islam which is closer to a Turkish interpretation. Uighurs have a long history of making and drinking wine, for example, which is expressly forbidden by Salafists. The separatists train with ISIS and go back to China, forcing women to wear niqab and burka (not something Uighurs have ever done historically), not allowing women to use money or drive, and forcing them to continue having sex and children even against their will. These last things are illegal in China and that's why they are sent to prison, but the prisons are actually designed to deradicalize them, provide job skills, and reintegrate them into their own society without being influenced by Salafism. Salafism is what is trying to eliminate Uighur culture, and China is preserving Uighur culture by banning Salafism.

        It's really easy to go and round up Salafists because they dress and act totally different than traditional Uighurs and are always breaking the law because their religious beliefs require them to do illegal things, like the subjugation of women described earlier. The government has responsibility to stop this, especially when it spills over into terrorist attacks as it did many times before they began the deradicalization campaign.

        China is doing well by combatting the root of extremism which is poverty. Xinjiang is very remote and was lagging behind the rest of China in access to jobs, education, healthcare which meant that they were susceptible to radicalization. They are close to Afghanistan which the US turned into a Salafist training center explicitly to destabilize the entire region by promoting separatists. Now Xinjiang is a massive tourist hub, has access to everything the rest of China has, and the Uighur culture is thriving. More people speak Uighur than there are Uighurs in the world, showing that non Uighurs learn the language just to get by living in Xinjiang because it is so prevalent. The opposite of the cultural repression people claim

      • +1 for you as well because, this, 100% this.

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