‘It’s the same daily misery’: Germany’s terrible trains are no joke for a nation built on efficiency
‘It’s the same daily misery’: Germany’s terrible trains are no joke for a nation built on efficiency
15 years ago I thought the Germans were the smartest people in the world because they understood the importance of investing in public services and had a central european style of capitalism that focused on fundamentals over financialization. since then they've slowly been adopting more neoliberal policies and making really stupid foreign policy decisions. I've lost a lot of respect for them as a world leader.
Oh no, that actually started way earlier!
The DB was supposed to be privatized in 1994, that failed. So now we have a stock based company (AG), lead like a profit oriented company, but owned 100% by the state.
Since 1994, the entire company was (due to incompentence and wrong incentives) driven on attrition. The best example: if a bridge needs repair, that's DB's expense, but if the bridge has to be rebuilt, the state pays. So what would any smart CEO do? Stop maintenance, wait for the bridge to fail and then have it repaired on the state's bill.
Don't forget turning off all their nuclear plants to become reliant on brown coal and russian (now american) gas.
I'm sorry but, I always find it strange when people talk about nuclear energy as the simplest solution.
Nuclear energy is extremely expensive compared to wind and solar once you also account for the cost of processing the uranium and then dealing with the radioactive waste afterwards.
Also take France for example. The EDF has (after being privatized) ran on substance without reinvesting in repairs and renovation so much that last year more than half of its 56(54?) reactors stood still because of problems relevant for their save operation. This was before the last record-breaking summer in 2022 when even more of them didn't have enough cool water to operate. As a consequence the EDF made mountains of dept because they had to buy so much energy from Germany last summer (from all the solar and wind) that Macron (the famously socialist and anti-market-driven-everything-president of France had to re-nationalize EDF last year. If a neoliberal government like France's nationalizes the EDF (famous for its highest percentage of nuclear energy in the mix) you can really see how great of a solution it really is.
Also: where does most of the world's uranium come from? Russia. So not really much of a difference to the gas. France takes a lot of it from Mali as well (which explains their involvement there. So uranium isn't that great in this regard as well).
Also: Nuclear reactors create the most important resource for nuclear weapons automatically.
In north-east Germany there's the Wendelstein 7X an experimental stelarator-type fusion generator that since its operation blew all the best estimates for experimentation out of the water. But it can never create more energy than it takes because it's too small. But it took decades to ensure the funding to even build a small one like this. For a fraction of the subsidies tat nuclear power plants, or gas or coal gets ever year we could've build many larger ones that would be much closer to be net positive in power production.
I'm not against nuclear energy per se. But it's really annoying to hear all these voices from outside that from thousands of miles away know everything about Germany turning off its power plants.
The main advantage of nuclear in capitalism is that its central. Everybody having solar power and large fields of wind farms distributed evenly across the country make it less controllable by singular entities.
I might warm up more to nuclear energy it would be run in a more socialist society where there's no profit-driven operation that drives companies to skip repairs. The corrosion crisis in France is a direct result of "market forces".
If something like Chernobyl happened in France... holy shit. That country has the most tourists in the world and exporting their food into the whole wide world. And -yes - I know that the chernobyl-type reactor (Graphite-mediated and so on) isn't used in France anymore. As someone who lived half of his life worth in 30km to "Fessenheim" - France's oldest and now shut down Graphite-Based reactor - I can yell you that you examine the possible impact more closely from time to time and think about it more.
Solar and Wind are better. But they naturally don't create market monopolies and dilute power over energy. That's why they're not pushed that hard. If a resource is spread out evenly you cannot make money from it. There's no market. Capitalism doesn't like this.
Can't go one thread about about Germany without that shit being spouted.
It is straight from the neoliberal privatisation playbook. Defund public infrastructure until the public complains, then "fix it" by privatising it
I'm German and have been in France quite often in recent years. It's fascinating to hear their opinions on Germany. Outside our country is still imaged as having great engineering, efficiency - that Trains run on time. It's quite puzzling to me.
I came to the conclusion that the only real innovation in the last 30 years has been accounting. largely driven by neoliberalism. So every neo liberal country has kind of become more similar. Germany is not special, but has the advantage of having a lot of old successful companies that only slowly get sold of to international conglomerates. (Like Kuka etc). We behave as shitty as the rest, but our downward trajectory started higher up.
Modern computers and software made it possible to account for basically every item in a company with little cost. Before you'd have needed so many people and hours of work to judge profitability of small things that it wouldn't have been sensible to do so. CAD-Software also enables a special kind of accounting - simulating hardware components enables engineers to judge which parts are necessary and how much thickness is really needed. This is a huge and complicated process of optimization.
Accounting made it possible to turn a mostly opaque company structure that ran inefficient (but mostly on par with the competition) and judge every employee, every item. That's why supermarkets have outsourced the job of restuffing the shelves to a different company (that has to somehow make it work with the shitty pay that get). But it's also the reason why appliances seem to hold just slightly over the warranty period. CAD-simulations made it possible for the accountants to change the products (make them shittier) so that people would need to buy new ones often.
The Deutsche Bahn is the same. Has made it possible to invest the smallest amount possible, because they realized they can just work with the deterioration infrastructure as well - most people don't have a choice and have to take the late train anyways.
It's the same with telecommunications here btw. With only few companys owning most Internet services they realized they don't have to invest a lot into fiber. People need Internet and will have to pay anyways. It's more profit to just raise prices.
Optimization feels a lot less optimal when it leads to enshittification. I have worked on the tech side of accounting systems in the US for the last 10 years and can say that American companies have largely embraced this category of innovation as well.
Interesting point of view - your accounting thing.
However, that doesn’t really fit to Deutsche Bahn, I think. Your point is rather about a Monopoly but an accounting exercise.
When you turn the logo of Deutsche Bahn upside down, you'll see their customer.
Omg, I never noticed. Thanks 😂
"Bad Day"
How do I hide these images?
They are getting pretty annoying.
Fork of one of the Lemmy frontends and add code to specifically hide the embedded images and then deploy it to your choice of hosting providers.
You can hide comments.
The web app Voyager hides them by default, as far as I can tell. You can sign into this with whatever instance account you’re using.
Infrastructure delivers more economic impact with less grifting when it's not designed and run to make a profit on its own.
Right? When did we start becoming concerned with a public service being "profitable"? I've heard this applied to the US Postal Service a lot recently.
"The postal service is losing money!"
No, the postal service costs money. It's a service. It doesn't aim to make a profit. It costs money, and we are in turn rendered a service that is useful.
I swear people are delusional.
Yet nobody ever expects the road system to turn a profit. Why should trains be any different?
I first remember it becoming an issue when a failed businessman turned president wanted to run the country like one of his failed businesses.
When did we start becoming concerned with a public service being “profitable”?
Late 80s, early 90s, with the rise of the rise of the Chicago School of neoliberalism.
You want to put pressure on these things to make them more cost effecient. You're in a capitalist system which does that job very well. But since this is not really a replaceable company, the government has to own these companies until they go public.
Depends how you calculate profit.
Exactly it's not accumulating debt. It's a service being provided to citizens.
I've got a joke about DB, but I'm not sure when it'll reach you
Sänk yoo for joking wizz Deutsche Bahn.
Germans. Come to Melbourne Australia, and as you get off at the airport realise there is no connecting train to the city. Cabs only.
Brought to you by the cab industry/lobby.
Cab industry is the scum of the world.
Cars can do one.
There is a bus, but yeah, it's a joke.
Yeah but the bus uses the same road as cars so other than being cheaper, you're getting stuck with traffic
Or the one from Sydney that charges you 20 dollars on top of the normal fare just because. I'm on the outskirts of Sydney and I've given up on the train system, they're either delayed, cancelled or running whenever they feel like it unscheduled now
Yeah the strikes and union action hasn't helped either. Just give them what they want so we can go back to regular ish trains lol
Thank the christian democrats and Angela Merkel. I'll have you know that people haven't learned and that christian democrats are leading the polls once again.
"A nation built on efficiency". These times are looong over. We had a good run with our Wirtschaftswunder in post-WWII times and that's about it.
Yes. But travel to other countries and hear their thoughts about Germany and you'll discover this image is very much alive still. It's important to spread the word outside of Germany, too.
Had some Germans visiting Norway recently. They said Germany is becoming way too individualistic. It's a race to the bottom now. Liberalism has taken it's hold, so efficiency will fade away.
The Wirtschaftswunder also had a lot to do with the Social Market Economy which, along with our train network, has been crippled by decades of neoliberal reforms.
The myth of Germany efficiency is slowly becoming unwound.
Slowly and with lots of unplanned breaks in between.
I've never understood why people think that anyways - if you've ever had the pleasure of interacting with German bureaucracy, you would have lost that view instantly.
Oh, it‘s no better over the ocean. A German colleague of mine just settled in the US and civil servants attitude and bureaucracy is the same shit. Bureaucracy seems to be an international culture.
German efficiency is such an obnoxious myth
So what myths are your people fighting with?
Fascists like you, who mythologize conflict, the past, and suffering.
Come to Slovakia, where 30+ minute delays are the norm. Or to Greece, where railways are still operated by humans.
It's all good though because SNCF is an order of magnitude worse.
In my experience and that of most of my friends both French and German, that is wrong. The French rail system may have its flaws (it does), but the German one is so much worse
In my experiences the SNCF Infra, rolling stock, station experience is...pretty good! Customer service on the other hand
Lol?
I'm German and travel regularily in France as well. Travelling in France by train is a JOY compared to Germany. Please ask around as many French living in Germany as you can find. Hear their opinions.
Lol! Come to hungary! Here the 30 min or even more delay is usual. While branchlines are closed due to the state railways dont have enough working diesels, as most of them are 40+ years old (or just soviet quality), and no money for new, as the EU stopped sending support, due to the corruption of the stateparty-government.
I've only been to Budapest and never used any intercity trains but the tram/streetcars have been way better, more on time and generally more available then anything in any German city
yes, IF you're in the inner city. Else, if you live the outer parts of the city, or if you have to go there, you're mostly doomed to ride on 30+ years old junk (or even see tram line 2 next to the parlaiment with those 60 years old not nice trams), with many transfers and long walks. But the transport in budapest handled by the (oppositional) city, not by the stateparty. However the stateparty takes as many money as they can from the city, just because the people in the city not voted them, so it's hard to improve the city transfport without money.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
“The situation has severely deteriorated in recent years,” said Detlef Neuss, chair of the passenger lobby group Pro Bahn, standing outside Cologne’s main station, in the shadow of the city’s gothic cathedral with its distinctive twin spires.
Earlier this month, after weeks of speculation over the future of Britain’s planned HS2 high-speed rail link from Birmingham to Manchester, the prime minister finally announced that the northern leg was to be scrapped.
In an excoriating special report published earlier this year, the public audit body did not mince its words as it sounded the alarm, warning that the company responsible for running the national rail network, its stations and signals, along with many long-distance and local trains, risked becoming a “bottomless pit” for taxpayer money.
Despite paying some €4,400 for an annual season ticket, in recent months Winter has had to put up with a weeks-long closure of the track between Wolfsburg and Berlin for upgrades, coupled with delays, cancelled trains and lack of staff.
The company, formed from the existing West and East German railways, was freed from previous debts with the idea that it would be able, in time, to become profitable, with the goal of boosting Germany’s GDP and floating on the stock market.
The governing agreement struck by the Social Democrats, Greens and Liberals in late 2021 committed them to doubling the capacity of passenger services by 2030, while setting a target for 25% of freight to be carried by rail by that date, and electrifying more railway lines amid attempts to meet climate goals.
The original article contains 1,887 words, the summary contains 258 words. Saved 86%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Perhaps the Germans could start investing in coal powered trains?
100% German solution.
Edit: For everybody downvoting me, see Germany begins dismantling wind farm for coal.
So tired of this uninformed bashing honestly.
But while we're at it: There are some coal-powered trains still in service in Germany, though mostly as attractions. Example: https://www.hsb-wr.de/
Wind farms are literally being dismantled to make room for coal extraction.
Edit: Source: https://euobserver.com/green-economy/157364
Don’t listen to a powercrazy bitch that still travels on dirt roads and shits in an outdoor toilet ;)
Auferstanden aus ruinen more like zurück nach ruinen
As an American who used DB for the first time, their shitty transit blows the best travel experiences here out of the water. I'd rather use German trains than fly first class in the US. Not even close TBH.
You can't compare a first world country to a third world country.
I kept reading the article trying to find the reason why DB is so crappy now, only to realize that a 10 minute delay is catastrophic by German standards. I'd love to just have any kind of public transit near me.
It is if it makes you miss a connecting train.
Also, those delays aren't the biggest problem, there's areas of the network which are completely messed up with hour-long delays and trains being skipped. That's a thing that's tolerable to commuters if it happens once a year, but not three days a week.
Not enough tracks, not enough cars, not enough reserve capacity, not enough fallbacks, and not even close to enough political will to fix the situation. Oh, yes, politicians agreed to introduce a swiss-style synchronised timetable by 2030, and that's definitely doable... but it has been postponed to 2070, or, in other words, never.
And then you hear bullshit like "we can't burden the coming generations with debt to build infrastructure" -- motherfucker how about not burdening future generations by having them drive horse buggies over gravel roads?
Connecting trains are the big problem. I had a three and a half hour direct train from Frankfurt to Brussels end up taking 8 hours. The one direct train turned into four legs with 3 cancelations. Otherwise waiting for an additional 10 minutes is not a problem, yes.
DB has a link where you can ask for refunds, which is nice. It doesn't offer refunds for time lost though.
i donno, amtrak is pretty great on the east coast. there’s absolutely nothing from the mississippi to the west coast so if you’re going that way youre going to have a bad time.
If Amtrak is the best we can do we should all be embarassed.
Have you ever been to Europe? The Amtrak is terrible