Hey could we defederate with exploding-heads.com/
The instance seems to be mostly right wing trolls. I know defederating is unpopular but I don't think much is to be lost in this case and it can save the mods some headaches.
Edit: the response on exploding-heads.com to my reporting of transphobia. Courtesy of the "second in command"
Yeah I must confess I recently went over there and agitated them a bit. I just wanted to see what their deal was because I saw a few of them over here.
TLDR they are basically like r/thedonald, libertarian types. Use slurs as a badge of honor. Angry, sad people. Fully in favor of defederation. But I get that it's early days, and defederation is a sensitive topic. I just don't see any path to that server becoming something of value that I'd want to interact with.
I dont see why defederation is seen as a sensitive topic.
Its a great feature, designed for specifically this purpose.
Over time people will migrate between instances and land where they fit. Some people want to be abrasive cunts, and they will land with the other abrasive cunts. Thats great, they have an instance they can do what they want on.
For the rest of us though, we dont want to see their bad faith articles and abrasiveness on our feeds. No one is being limited in their speech, but they might be limited in their reach. If they want to expand their reach, they can join a more broadly federated instance and ditch the bad faith arguments and abrasiveness.
Its the kids table at the dinner party. You can join the adults table if you behave in a way that is suitable for the adults, if not go back and play with the kids and everyone is happy.
The example that introduced me to federation was like an instance getting overrun with Nazis, and everyone deciding to just cut that instance loose; let it float alone as "the Nazi instance" that nobody has to interact with.
I thought that stuff like bad actors and assholes was one of the main reasons for the idea of federation, really surprised how many people thought differently
If you genuinely think libertarians are equivalent to r/thedonald posters, you have no clue what you're talking about. Which is why defederating based on politics is stupid.
I never said they were equivalent. One of the most popular posts on the server is about creating an index of libertarian/right-leaning instances.
https://exploding-heads.com/post/92733
One of the most prominent users (4 month acount!) is named maga_force.
What term would you use to describe their users?
Or perhaps you just didn't see those who don't bother engaging in conflict?
I fully understand why you don't expect to find content there in the future, but is that a good argument to deny access to those who already have?
Exploding heads have gotten subscribers from here as well. There's an extensive backlog of topics some people find quite important - even if others don't.
Radicalisation starts with people "just asking questions" or "just pointing out an issue with X without having anything against them", that's enough to hook some people that will go way down the rabbit hole.
In the screenshot you see exactly what I'm talking about, "I'm not racist, but I can point out issues with the BLM movement". Alright they just opened the door to people that are a bit more radical to try and find out where the tolerance ends and to others to start looking for answers with a biased premise in mind.
I invite you to watch this video (and the whole series really) that covers all of that:
I support this. Keep Nazis out of my feed.
Defederation is de-platforming. These hate communities are able to recruit because let them. We give them free reign to whisper hateful falsehoods in the ears of the vulnerable, all in the name of free speech. They can be as hateful as they want on their own, but we are under no requirement to give them a platform to spread their ideologies. De-platforming works, so let the nazis chirp in their own little echo chamber. Keep their hateful rhetoric contained to their own little garden so our vulnerable youth need not be exposed. It's easy to say "just block them yourself," but that doesn't cut off the steady supply of misguided incel-larva to fill their ranks. Drown 'em out. De-platform them. Defederate now. No quarter for hate.
The issue with censoring is that as soon as you start censoring people because you think their ideas are harmful, there are those who think your ideas are harmful. yet the group doing the censorship never sees their own views as harmful. it just increases polarization, echochambers, etc. which IMO leads to more harm, not less.
I think the way beehaw goes about things is harmful, so should we defederate from them as well? Or are only the things you think are harmful what should be censored? And if the latter, who made you boss?
sh.itjust.works can decide their federation policies on their own, but defederating over a difference of belief is always odd to me. the mod message that OP shared is clear they don't allow truly hateful speech, they merely have different views on things. same goes for lemmygrad, they get defederated often but they seem quite civil despite their fringe views?
I wonder if kbin will stay the course and continue federating with everyone or if it'll eventually defederate. I hope the former, and those who wish for an instance that defederates can go elsewhere.
IDK why people are thinking he's gonna de-federate for transphobia when he has allowed the matt walsh documentary to sit on his instance for days now
I often hear the argument "they'll just go elsewhere," "they'll just start new accounts," etc, to defend not censoring/defederating/blocking/whatever fascist or proto-fascist people or sites. That's not an argument, that's a commitment to rolling over for fascists and intolerance. They're bringing the fight, and not fighting back and making their lives harder is just helping them move the Overton Window further to the right, and making horrific ideas palatable.
Just as an outside observer - a lot of people from reddit are out searching for a new home. Convos like these will set the tone for every new entrant so you have the opportunity now, before it all goes really big like reddit, to shape a community based on mutual aid, love, earnestness instead of one focusing on building capital at any cost.
There are so so many socially conservative sites and spaces fully dedicated to those communities, big enough that even normal media covers them. But how many Gabs or Parlers exist out there for marginalized people, how many communities are willing to do the hard work of ensuring there could be a beloved community where hatred and minimization is curtailed, who don't act according to the will of private investors demanding incessant growth?
I hope there can be spaces like that which can grow from a watershed moment like this. It would be really cool if it were this one 😌
Nazi instances will proliferate and it benefits nobody else to stay in federation with them. It makes the whole fediverse less usable and more dangerous. And whether you like it or not it sends a message to people who are targeted by them that they are not truly welcome here, regardless of whatever moderation rules are espoused.
And in North America, as in many places, these people are acting as a propaganda arm for a literal violent terror movement. Sometimes under a fig leaf of ”irony” but it makes no material difference whether they’re chuckling when they spew shit to me
Hey kbin users if you want to block this domain just go to https://kbin.social/d/exploding-heads.com and block that domain there.
I agree holy shit I went there today and there was some hateful af stuff
I was also kinda surprised that sh.itjust.works doesn't block exploding-heads as most instances I'm aware of do. That coupled with the fact that the instance doesn't block them but blocks lemmygrad made me think at first sh.itjust.works was going to be some far-right instance, but from what I've seen it isn't. Though, I don't understand why sh.itjust.works would want to federate with them, considering their content often violates the rules of the instance.
Not the prettiest instance, but have they caused any real trouble outside of their own instance? Not much of a fediverse if we just defederate from instances that lean different politically. Especially seems like a weird move to go defederating on other instances this early given y'know, that we just got defederated from beehaw because of one misbehaved asshole.
I'm not saying we should immediately defederate, but the reason I originally went to check them out was partially because of this comment and the reply from dick@exploding-heads.com
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/207742
When he made that reply, it got rapidly upvoted to +7, while my comment was also sitting at about +7. This morning, several hours later, when a bunch of actual sh.itjust.works users woke up and read the thread, the ratio of votes changed in my favor.
I fear that we are going to deal with a significant level of brigading from that instance, and unlike reddit we don't really have any tools to combat that.
They also had a good laugh about the troll who posted here about getting us defederated by beehaw. They really don't like beehaw, or gay people in general.
It's whatever but we are already defederated with lemmygrad.ml and I feel like this stuff is on that same tier.
It's always funny as, non American, to read about this naive anti- censorship slogans. Hateful political groups never stay in their places and play nice everywhere else. They brigade and harass every fucking time. There's a reason why every place without moderation turns into a absolute toxic cesspit.
Voat failed quickly because of the "no censorship" implemented which allowed garbage to congregate. Of course people left because it was nothing but shit.
Lemmy needs to take out this trash.
Why? It will only create echo chambers, I want to access the entierty of Lemmy
Lemmy or Jeroba just ate my comment so let me try again.
I didn't initially want to join here, but the instance I did want to join (which is defederated with Lemmygrad, Burggit, and Exploding Heads and I think that's a fantastic defed list) is having significant growing pains at the moment, while shit just works here. I ran across my first Exploding Heads post in All and it was gross, and it seems like the tools available to me as a user will leave me playing whack a mole to get rid of all of it which I'm not looking forward to. Right now I'm planning on moving to that other instance in a few weeks once they get everything sorted out, but if Burggit and Exploding Heads are defederated here and the issues with Beehaw are sorted out (which I'm optimistic that they will be), I'm open to staying here, it's certainly the easiest option for me given the lack of account migration options, and the perks of being in a larger instance (the community search feature in Jeroba has worked well for me and I think it's due to the large user base here). I'm extremely impressed with how The Dude is handling the scaling issues and his communication with Beehaw right now, also I generally like Canadians and green energy, lol.
:(
That place is gross. They have a parent community that is just trans hate. I can't imagine spending so much energy being a hateful idiot.
Fake news
They seem to be 3 or 4 active users, I think I know @Wigglehard@exploding-heads.com if he was on votal. One of the most active at the moment. He is far from a troll. Though he may hurt some people's feelings, he will defend your Liberty of speech.
Now something related : will we ban "fat_people_hate" ? We will ban jokes on any minorities ? Where do we draw the line ?
Something is clear in my mind : we have to band apology of genocide, war, call of violence, and such. We have to ban what would be illegal in many civilized countries
Isn't it just better to do it on your own accord?
If you do not wish they mingle with you, block the community you do dislike. You can even block individual person.
If you do not want to participate in theirs, just don't visit them.
Defederating is extreme, it takes liberties and freedom from other users, and should only be used as last resort.
EDIT: @eta_aquarid, why you are discussing this instances meta, you are from kbin.social? And then why you blocking me? Is there some sort of brigade going on here?
EDIT2: So many other unrelated instances' user come in here. Wow. There are some coordinated attacks to make sh.itjust.works worse huh?
KBIN.SOCIAL PEOPLE: This https://kbin.social/m/main@sh.itjust.works/t/39264/Hey-could-we-defederate-with-exploding-heads-com#comments means it is HOSTED on sh.itjust.works instance! It is NOT kbin.social post! Even if you can see from your instance!
Wtf, what liberties and freedoms does it take from anyone? No one has the right to anyone’s attention nor any instance. They aren’t being blocked from using the software.
Defederation should be the LAST and FINAL option. From what I understand, this is a small instance that isn't causing much trouble outside of their instance. Block them on your own! I'm on lemmy.world, but personally I would like to keep up to date on the shit they post. I don't think we should start going around defederating communities that we disagree with, even though their opinions are shit, vile, offensive, and disgusting. Leave it up and block them on your own.
Edit: 10 years ago I used to be one of those intolerable fucks. Yes - exactly like them. Until I talked to other people on Reddit, real life, and listened to other ideas. I had a change of heart and hope even a couple of them could too. It happens.
100%
I don't like how r/conservative handles their moderation but I don't think their subreddit should be nuked.
But things like Men Going Their Own Way, and The Donald or any other subreddits promoting violence and direct hate deserve removal (or de-federation). De-federation should be used as a tool of last resort. For places who are turning to actual violence or outright hatred.
I cannot stress how strongly I disagree with exploding-head's stance on Trans rights and racism but if someone has an odious opinion on gender affirming care or trans athletes then they should be met by people who counter their ideas. Simply cutting them off into isolation provides zero chance of changing their minds.
I understand that some people have no interest in debating people who disagree with them, and that is entirely ok. Block any community or poster that you find offensive but defederation is not something that should be used regularly.
Yes exactly. Just like there are idiots in real life, we ignore them and move on. Everyone is entitled to an opinion even if we disagree with it. Sure people can spout some nonsense devoid of facts we can down vote if thats the case .
You might disagree with someone on politics but like the same sports team for example. There are humans on either side so like in real life we can get along and don't need to agree on everything.
If something is illegal or its hate speech or something like that then report and block the user and the content.
If you don't like a community you can block it but if we shut off instances all of the time I can guarantee you the fediverse will just turn into isolated echo chambers and we'll all be forced back to corporate walled gardens.
If we can coexist in real life we can coexist here.
We need our views challenged to grow. Being corrected is a good thing thats how we learn. Life is short at the end of the day let's not try to take it too serious.
❤️
holy shit, how do I even begin to explain that you can't just "ignore" Nazis and racists and transphobes and letting them keep their platform
you do understand that they hurt real fucking people, right????
"personally I would like to keep up to date on the shit they post"
The shit they post is the gateway to worse things for some. You're still free to go check what's going on over there, it doesn't mean they should have access to our space.
gateway to worse things for some
so you're basically saying "there's nothing wrong with this, but let's ban it anyway because it may be a little wrong in the future"?
These guys fucking suck, no doubt, but I really prefer that we put the impetus on users to block communities they don't like rather than pursue total defederation
Being tolerant without limits not a good way to handle right wing trolls. Trusting right wing trolls to moderate themselves is, imo, not a route to success.
I personally think defederating shouldn't happen generally. I'd rather there be customizable user filters for either words, subjects, etc.
Like I'm not really into their content (or that of some other instances) but defederating at an instance level is kind of a giant hammer for the few folks who may (for better or worse) be interested in both instances.
No. Nazis need to be blocked by the instance admin. Otherwise, it's time to look for a new instance.
Exploding Heads have between 40-60 active users, you probably noticed two posters you find disagreeable.
Have you considered blocking the users or communities you find offensive?
If the platform itself allows these users to participate then the platform is also an issue.
If you hang out with racists and don't argue against them then you're racist too.
I second this.
Let's wait for per-user instance filters to be implemented, then everyone can block instances to taste. As long as their users don't cause trouble in our communities, there's no need for our instance to act as a moral guardians and decide what our users can and cannot see. Defederation is a nuclear option that should only be done if their instance is disrupting our instance's operation (spamming and breaking rules while in our communities).
I like that sh.itjust.works currently federates with almost everyone, and I can see a big part of the fediverse from here. It would suck having to visit multiple instance to see the whole fediverse.
If per-user instance filters are implemented, perhaps instances could have "default blacklists" for new users for stuff like exploding-heads or lemmygrad that most people don't want to see, with the option to manually un-block them if someone does want to see that.
I’m as leftist as they come and I do not support this action. If you don’t want to see it, mute the instance rather than creating an echo chamber.
you're leftist but aren't considering the paradox of tolerance?
like, why? What is the reason you're not supporting defederation?
Listen cupcake, you wanted decentralized freedom. This is what it looks like. People you don't agree with exist. Grow a pair and block them yourself.
This is some top tier cringe right here.
tell me that you're a white middle class guy who's never faced marginization without teling me that you're a white middle class guy who's never faced marginalization
My experience with exploding-heads is they are mostly level headed serious users and not trolls at all. Defederating because one person had their feeling hurt is dumb and ruins the fediverse for everyone
Great opinion, let me check your comment history to vett your perspective..
HAHAHAHA you argue like a child and have 0 perspective. Thanks for the opinion but no thanks.
He's very clearly just here to troll, not to provide any actual perspective or discussion.
This is silly. Just block the users/instance yourself.
Defederation exists for a reason. Shit heads and extremists should not be welcome here.
Given that one of the rules for the server is no bigotry, I would assume that extends to the ones we federate with from what I read.
Don't de-federate unless they're allowing the planning of violence, CSAM material, or actual abuse.
As a leftist I see it like this:
Blocking someone is: "I don't want to see this"
De-federating is: "I don't want you to see this"
Blocking someone is: Ignoring a person saying bigoted things.
De-federating is: Jailing a person saying bigoted things.
If you can't handle people saying shit you don't like then you need thicker skin. If you can't engage in a conversation with a person who shares an opinion that you fine distasteful then you need to seek maturity.
If you can't disagree with someone without physically attacking them, then you don't deserve to be part of a community. If you can't exist without abusing another person, then you don't deserve to be part of a community.
lol, defederating is not anything like jail
Now, in a tolerant society, we should be tolerant of people who are merely annoying. But not people who are normalizing violence and hate. There are people you fundamentally should not sit at a table with.
It's important to understand the difference between a good faith disagreement and bad faith propaganda and harassment campaigns, which is what the right wing troll farms deal in.
Defederating is separating the group so that you’re no longer at the table with the asshole and their asshole friends
The issue is that you're no longer choosing who you interact with you're choosing who everyone interacts with. You're walking away with a table that other people are sitting at. This isn't Reddit you're not banning their subreddit, they're not deplatformed, you're just adding them to the block list of everyone on your instance.
You have no right to tell me what I can see and respond to anymore than I have a right to tell you who you can and cannot block.
If we're losing our minds over ~20 active users, then we have way bigger problems than that instance.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I have no issues defederating with an instance like that. I just don't think it matters much either way.
Why wait until it becomes a problem? The_Donald literally started as a joke brought over from 4chan. It grew and over time it basically went from "too small to do something about it" to "too big to do something about it" (to Reddit admins at least). Why even give these people a platform? We don't have any reason to give them space to grow.
I'd like to decide for myself what I want to see and what not, as an adult.
We should absolutely not turn to defederation as a first action. You know how traditional social media bans opinions that are not acceptable according to themselves?
We must be better than that. It creates a ridiculous otherwise where people think everyone agrees with them and they are never challanged in how they think about things.
I think we should be exposed to different opinions as long as it's within the rules, meaning people must be polite, not hateful, not breaking the law etc.
Read up on the Paradox of Tolerance, please. "We must be better than them" is a call for total tolerance, which will inevitably lead to the disappearance of tolerance, and that cannot be allowed to happen. It is simply impossible to have a community where transphobes and trans people coexist happily together, and I'll choose the side that's not trying to hurt others (trans people, in case that wasn't clear) every day.
Every censorship-enjoyer loves talking about the Paradox of Tolerance. Here's the part Popper said that they like to gloss over:
I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise.
To me, Exploding-heads are on the other side of the same coin that Beehaw exists on in regards to fringe exteme ideologies and sensitive emotionally fragile admins. Defederating them both is pretty fucking dumb because it will create echo chambers that will in result churn out more idiots. Just block them via your preferred instance.
Maybe lemmygrad, but Beehaw is hardly radical because they did a temporary defederation because they didn't have the manpower to deal with users breaking their community rules.
I would say beehaw is more extreme than lemmygrad. Lemmygrad may have fringe extremist views, but their behavior on social media is rather tame (at least in my experience). Whereas beehaw may have more "tame" views, they're much more extreme in their moderating.
fucking wild to hear Beehaw being of a "fringe extreme ideology" for...
...deciding to defederate with really huge communities with lax registration requirements because they were overworked and didn't have good enough mod tools (because the platform doesn't) to deal with it?
Even saying that they'd consider refederating once those issues were solved?
In what world is this extreme, and in what world is this "the opposite of an instance that is amenable to right-wing people"? Like how could you even logically think that?
No, don't defederate. Just because an instance doesn't align politically with your views doesn't mean that they have to be gone. And we should definetly avoid a mastodon blocklist situation.
If you refuse to meet someone on level ground because you consider them intolerant of your own ideas, you're the one being intolerant.
the marketplace of ideas means fuck all when it comes to people telling you that you shouldn't be allowed to exist
Why should the ground be lowered to a level that fits the criterias of bigots?
If being bigoted is wrong, it doesn't take a genius to prove that, no?
I can disagree with everything they stand for, and think they are absolutely stupid, but god damn do they have a right to be. The mentality stemmed from twitter of "They are just so wrong I wont even listen or let them talk" is so ignorant and authoritarian. What if north korea censored people for saying anything negative about their government? That would be wrong to us, but to them it is based in logic.
The internet has become so used to banning expression, it baffles me. It used to be commonly agreed apon that every individual has a right to thought, and if they're stupid it should be easy to prove them so. Nowadays everyone is censoring everyone they dont like. Some people on the right wanting to stop LGBT content, someone in this thread wanting to censor the Matt Walsh documentary. I've watched it to hear his opinion, despite how much I may disagree with him. And it brought up some good points. If the documentary is so wrong, we should put it out there to show and publicly shame, no? Censorship is the weakest form of countering, no one is the moral authority they may think they are.
Sorry to make this so long but I am tired of people being willingly ignorant because they don't like what someone said. Have a nice day, stranger I disagree with.
Create a level ground then. Beehaw never said they are a level ground, they are an instance that doesnt want rightoids arguing in bad faith, the same way exploding heads wouldnt want an army of lefties coming in and injecting themselves into every thread.
A level ground where people of whatever affiliation can converse is a great idea. Beehaw doesnt have to be that place
Defedarating for political reasons seems stupid to me. If it's proven that the community is toxic and full of trolls, that is an argument to do it. Anyways, as other said, for now I don't think we really need some more defedaration drama
"Defederating for political reasons" is like a completely normal reason to do so. Like, why the hell should we tolerate alt-right shitheads here?
If you think this is "just political drama", count yourself lucky to not be affected by the alt-right
I'm affected by the alt-right, and I don't consider them much of a threat. They're just a bunch of closeted little boys with mummy problems.
@chalkman hEy cOuLd wE deFedErate wITH exploding-heads.com/
is this the best redditors can come up with????????? :guraKekw:
No. Get fucked, fascist. I should choose what content I get to see, not some power-tripping admin.
No, don't de-federate. If you don't like it, block it, easy as that.
Lemmy is meant to be better than reddit, which means dealing with opposing views. If they're triggering or offensive to you, block them.
