What are some good examples of "Where the fuck do you go" kind of games?
We've all played them. Backtracking, not knowing where to go. Going back and forth. Name some of these games from your memory. I'll start: Final Fantasy XIII-2, RE1
That's my experience with 99% of old school point and click games. At some point in every one it devolved into me running in circles and trying every item on every object.
Yeah, basically every game that runs on scummvm is a good candidate here: leisure suit Larry, kings quest, police quest, the dig, sam and max, Indiana jones and the fate of Atlantis, all the sierra and lucasarts ones
Myst series is another good one. Journeyman project trilogy. These all ruled when I was like 12 years old
I miss when games were confusing and aimless by default. I know there are still games like this but I feel like the default now is a game that’s like “oh hey, go down this hallway full of locked doors! Except one door is unlocked, that’s a secret area, good for you! But otherwise go down the hallway to the next hallway!”
Also the end of the hallway is glowing, and there’s a pulsating dot on your minimap. And if you take 5 seconds longer than needed, your character says to himself: “maybe I should go to the end of this hallway”.
Oh man, king's quest. Those games were literally impossible without a guide and you needed to go to areas in very specific steps to not softlock the game.
Disco Elysium gave me this experience in a new context. But better, because it blurs the line between success and failure.
When I played Day of the Tentacle I got stuck. Eventually I caved in and ordered the official hint book. Mind you, back then this entailed mailing a physical letter and the money somewhere. I guess my parents helped with that. And then you had to wait for your order to arrive. And the post was a lot slower than today.
I waited weeks for the book to arrive. And then, the day before it came, I finished the game. Use physics book with horse was the last puzzle I needed.
But the money wasn't wasted entirely. The game's story was written down from the pov of one of the characters. Pretty funny.
What a solid game and experience. I've played through it so many times, and I can't ever get over Bernard's voice actor being Les Nessman from WKRP in Cincinnatti
Hint books were an experience back then. I remember the hint book for myst had this whole narrative about some other person who got trapped in the book, which was supposed to be like the player. It was this whole story of how they solved all the various puzzles. I remember it being quite long but I was also like 9 so maybe it was just like 10 pages
The worse is when a solution seems obvious but doesn't work. Then you lose your mind clicking everything until you get the actual solution.
I gave up on point and click games when the solution to a problem in Monkey Island 2 was to put a fucking dog in your pocket. Even the look Guybrush gives when he stuffs the dog in is like "bet you didn't think to do that initially huh..?'
Never had this issue with monkey island games...
Ecco the Dolphin is literally impossible without a guide.
designed that way to make more money on people renting it over and over to try and beat it IIRC
I am not really seeing it. I did finish it without a guide back then. It was the Windows 9x port, but I don't think it changes much.
Really in my case a guide would not help for the hardest parts, which were mostly the crazy moves needed to push those floating things to break rocks and to swim against currents with boulders.
That game was like an unforgiving crack rock
Zelda: Link's Awakening on the GameBoy Color in the mid-90s. I got to the second temple, and was totally stuck - to progress I needed to learn to jump, which I inferred was in this temple, but I just couldn't figure out where it was.
Wandered all over the available map, which of course was constrained due to lacking the jump skill and other story-driven tools. Nothing.
Finally bought a game guide, which explained to me that I needed to bomb a wall in one room in the second temple to progress. It was indicated by a small crack, a staple in Zelda games but invisible to me in my first experience with the series.
The cherry on top was that by that point, I didn't have any bombs to break the wall, and I recall that I didn't have the ability to buy or acquire any and had to restart the game to progress past the point where I was stuck.
After that point, Zelda: Links Awakening became one of my favorite games of my childhood. It is hilarious how much frustration it caused me before that realization.
Some games really do depend on learned conventions from previous games which can feel a bit unfair to the uninitiated. It's a double edged sword of avoiding too much tutorializing vs alienating newcomers.
I sorta had the same problem with Ocarina of Time. Was stuck in the Deku Tree basement. Didn’t know you had to use a stick with fire to burn cobweb. I thought the game was broken and was thinking about returning the game until I accidentally solved it by fucking around. Not sure if Navi explained it or not, but my English wasn’t very good when I was 10 and the game didn’t had my native language as an option.
Yeah Link's Awakening is the one that came to mind for me. Even after having beaten it, the next time I played it I would still get stuck.
When I was 5 or 6, my grandmother got a NES and three games. One was Crystalis.
Me and my two cousins played the game in turns, and we eventually got to the first boss, which was quite an achievement because there are puzzle elements to the game.
We could not beat this boss. Several years later, I have my own NES and I borrow Crystalis. I'm pretty sure I got to that boss again and realized something. Hitting him produced a sound that no other monster had. It sounded like hitting solid glass. I finally intuited that I wasn't strong enough and leveled up to level 3, and wouldn't you know it, I beat the boss.
It's one of my all time favorite retro games. It was so ahead of its time. Worth playing if you've never tried it.
Back then on my GBA I got stuck in a Zelda Oracles dungeon for quite some time until I looked up what I was supposed to do. Turns out there was a hint, I had read it, but it was mistranslated and was garbled in my language.
It's supposed to tell you running makes you jump farther. Translated text doesn't mention jumping and instead sounds like a weird nonsensical idiom about "travelling far". Specifically travelling in the sense going on a trip, not just going from place A to place B.
I got stuck in the first dungeon, because one room required pushing two blocks together but I didn't even think any of these blocks could be pushed at all!
Bought the official guide book a bit later
I had a similar problem with ocarina of time (and lemme tell you having to run around in not one but multiple times was a… blast…)
It was the first Gannon fight where you shoot the paintings.. I’d never played a Zelda game before and it took me ages to give up and look it up (thankfully this was after the internet was born, and walkthrough sites were all over)
Morrowind.
Can you find this person whom wandered off into the ashlands? They went east-ish.
I've spent more time than I'd like to admit in the Construction Kit to find out where in Vivec's name I had to go this time. Usually it turned out I just barely missed the person or location I had to go before starting an hourlong search.
But despite that still a game I deeply love.
That's what I like about the game. The NPCs tell you where to go to the best of their ability, and you follow to the best of yours. I like it a hell of a lot more than quest markers.
There is at least one occasion where NPCs just straight up lie to you in quest directions though. I can't think of it off the top of my head but I remember it existing because I complained about it on a forum.
On one hand - great worldbuilding! "Local dumbass gives you bad directions" is a funny and memorable point on top of what might otherwise be a forgettable side quest. On the other hand, I spent the better part of four hours looking for whatever egg mine or ancestral tomb or whatever it was he asked me to find before getting fed up and having UESP tell me "lol no actually it's off in this complete other direction", and I'm pretty sure I assassinated that NPC after I turned in his quest.
The number of times I totally overshot distance based on the quest description and ended up in the Ashlands....
Jesus, the finding people thing was tough, but finding the quest item that I had already looted from a grave and either dropped or sold to a random merchant? Game ending, man.
This was me lmao. On my first playthrough of Morrowind as a teenager I dicked around and did everything except the main quest for ages. Around level 18 I decided to actually progress the main quest. Hasphat, check. Arkngthand, no sweat. Talk to Sharn Gra-Muzgob, she says to fetch the Skull of Llevule Andrano. Cool, go to Andrano's tomb, looks kind of familiar. Where is the Skull of Llevule Andrano? Cause it sure ain't here in his tomb. Whoopsie.
Never found the skull, never progressed the quest, had to start a new character to actually experience the main story. I wonder how many potential Nerevarines failed to ascend due to missing minor quest items. Wish I could ask em that inside the Cavern of the Incarnate.
DOOM
Fuck your Blue Key.
still need to get around to beating doom 2. It just got so repetitive I had to take a break
Don't feel too bad about it, the best bits are the first half or so I'd argue.
There is a really fun Doom mod called "my house" that seems totally absolutely normal artsy house recreation at first...
Until you discover the mirror universe and the downstairs (at the time this mod released multiple overlapping layers of level geometry was not technically possible).
I actually like those a lot. Just listing some in no particular order:
I wouldn't add hollow knight to the list. It is an exploration game, being lost is the point, the problem are linear games that you don't know where to go next.
You want the absolute "guide damn it" example? Try playing the OG Dragon Quest games. They're nonlinear by nature and there's a spot in 2 (or was it 3) where you need to literally check an unmarked floor for an item. No indicator, save maybe a vague NPC dialogue in another part of the planet that didn't get adequately translated in English so you're truly aimless.
It’s in 1 where you find the item to avoid swamp damage
It's a secret to everyone!
Reminds me that Nintendo had help lines you could call for stuff like Zelda secrets, and they may have intentionally added things like secret caves to incentivize that lucrative service.
Final Fantasy 7 has a lot of mini versions of this moment because the level art is rarely distinguished from the actual terrain you can interact with so sometimes you kinda get stuck until you realise that this time that little ramp is actually something your supposed to walk up rather than un-interactable scenery like all those previous times.
There is a setting you can enable to make entrance and exit visible if I remember correctly
in the development a lot of stuff got cut too so there was art meant to be interacted with that ended up not being
Back in the day I once timed out on the bombing mission escape because I couldn't find the right spot to climb the damn ladder near jesse
every Metroid or Castlevania game, to the point metroidvania is a genre.
Myst.
Riven.
Myst III Exile
Hmm. I'm not sure these count.
A) they're supposed to be mysterious
B) the progression makes sense, even if the key is in one of several burned books on a bookshelf among many other similar keys, or given to you in one of the bad endings.
The information is there, you just have to work for it.
I haven't played Myst III, that was by a different company, right?
Myst III was made by Presto Studios in collaboration with Cyan, it does have a slightly different feel to the other games, but it is not bad
This is an extremely specific situation in a game, but...
In World of Warcraft, back in the day, there was a dungeon in Outland, I believe it was Helfire Citadel. It wasn't particularly hard, but if you died, you were screwed. The way dungeon deaths worked was your spirit would spawn in a graveyard out in the regular world, and you would have to run your spirit ass back to the dungeon entrance to respawn. But finding the entrance to Helfire Citadel was so difficult I told the group if they don't rez me, they'd have to just kick me, because I'd never make it back in. It was awful.
There is a reason that as long as Hellfire Citadel has existed, the first Google auto complete suggestion is "Hellfire Citadel entrance."
Lots of the vanilla WoW instances was like that. Often the way to the entrance was populated by the same level elites as the dungeon so you had to run a gauntlet just to get in.
The Deadmines and Uldaman comes to mind. And since you spawned at the entrance you had to dodge and sneak past patrols avoided on the run. Gnomereagan and Maraudon and parts of Dire Maul was very maze like if my memory serves me right
Blackrock Depths was fucking big, too. Later on, with the LFG tool, it was separated into 2 or 3 parts, I think. I mean, running alone back in WotLK days, where you could easily kill everything side, would still take you 2 to 3 hours to fully clear the place
Maraudon was the worst of all imo, big empty rooms so not only did you get lost it just took forever to run everywhere. Good times.
I got echo the dolphin for Sega genesis when I was about 8. I don't know how much of the game I got through, but thinking back it couldn't have been more than a few percent. And I played that shit for hours trying to figure out where to go next.
I still have the fond memory of the Ecco the Dolphin being called like game of the year by many magazines. So I begged my uncle to rented it from Blockbuster. First few days, I struggled. Then I asked to extend the rental. After a week, I gave up. Game was bs. I played Nintendo hard games.
A decade later, I decided to read about Ecco and how brutally unfair it is and yeah, fuck that game.
I found the way to progress once, you have to like flip up out of the water and across to some other part of the level. I couldn't ever remember how I did it afterwards though.
Yeah you have to free Willy yourself but before that you have to … do some sort of katamari thing(?)
Holyshit I forgot this game existed! I had the exact same experience, no idea what I was doing but for some reason I kept playing
I really need to try it again with a guide, I want to see the wild shit after that first damn level.
Control had me wandering around.
That's one of the best games I've played with one of the worst map designs I've ever seen.
Surely that's the point though. Isn't the map design part of the Tower of Babel madness vibe?
I actually gave up because I was lost in an office most of the time. It was just dull.
Divinity: Original Sin 1. took about eighty odd hours to get to the door that says sorry mate, not enough magic stones
Disco Elysium for me. Too many open directions. Too much player agency. I had no idea where I should go.
I always took Disco as just a "stumble into the plot" kind of game. You're not supposed to go anywhere.
True, but the problem (at least for me) is that I was simultaneously going nowhere and running out of places to go. I legit wasn't sure how to progress literally any of the opened quests and felt like nothing was getting done.
The funny thing about Disco Elsyium is that there's so much to do in the opening area and it builds such a rich picture of the city that you assume it's a much bigger world than it really is.
It really isn't that much bigger than the first part, but they did such a great job you don't end up minding.
Most 90's and late 80's point and click games (Sam and Max, Full Throttle, Monkey Island, The Dig, Loom, Maniac Mansion, Day of the Tentacle, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, Zack McCraken and the Alien Mindbenders, Kings / Space quest, Dark Seed, Beneath a Steel Sky)
Dark Seed was old school hard and explained nothing. Gave up multiple times, wasn't playable for me. Sucked because I'm a huge fan of H.R. Giger.
The old text adventures where being able to solve a puzzle required hitting the right words. "Oh, twist, not pull."
Dear God those text parser adventures. I remember playing Hugo's House of Horrors and trying for the longest time to remove some screws from a grate.
Okay screws np.
UNSCREW SCREWS
I don't know how to do that.
REMOVE SCREWS
I don't know how to do that.
Reeeee... Turns out it only responded specifically to UNDO SCREWS
It is like a game designed by a bitter English teacher.
I don’t understand how anyone beat things like Zork or the Hitchhikers Guide without guides.
The Babel fish shit had me in tears.
Fallout 1: If you play it going in blind and don't look up help, a first playthrough can be stressful early on if you don't know how much progress you are making on the time limited main quest.
Kenshi: The game doesn't have quests or main goals, so it is up to the player to figure out what they want and how to get it. Certain game areas are lethally dangerous, factions can be angered if you don't figure out their customs, and even in less lethal areas being beaten and crippled by bandits is a real problem.
The Gang Gets Abducted by Religious Slavers for Not Joining The Book Readings.
The funny thing is being enslaved by the religious zealots is one of the best starts you can pick in the game. You're stuck in a quarry doing backbreaking work (which levels strength), are fed just enough that you won't die (acquiring food is normally a nightmare in the early game), and most importantly the guards won't (intentionally) kill you, only knock you unconscious if you misbehave. Which matters because taking damage is how you train toughness, making it one of only a few places on the entire world map where you can train it without a high risk of death.
And it gets better. Every night after your shift you can sneak out and practice lock picking on doors and slave shackles and assassinating sleeping guards (since failure only results in a beatdown), which combined with the strength and toughness grinding leads to you becoming a ninja powerhouse by the time you escape.
10/10, would lead a slave uprising again.
hell yeah kenshi mentioned. Honestly the game feels like 'slop', but is fun as hell also in an old-school RuneScape type of way
excited for the 2nd game on unreal engine (but small dev team, might take couple more years)
I hate timers on games that give you little guidance. People claim that Fallout 1's timer is too lenient, but I ended up replaying (and failing) the game twice and still not coming close to finding the water chip. Also, the game constantly reminds you "We're all dying, hurry up! Every minute you take is an other life lost!". Same reason I dislike Lightning Returns.
Old DOOMs up till 64. Halo 1 was also very repetitive in its lookalike hallways and got me lost multiple times. I don't miss the get lost mechanics of these games. Especially in doom where the function of the many look alike chambers was unknown to me so the architecture made no sense.
I remember playing Assault on the Control Room on Halo 1 and one of the doors glitched and didn't unlock. I must have walked around those hallways for hours trying to work out where I was supposed to go
I think Hexen takes the cake among the "old Dooms", since it has a hub map and you have to revisit some levels to toggle switches that became accessible after toggling another switch in another map.
OMG! Yes! classic doom had some of the most frustrating level designs. I started to hate the game after being lost forever on some maps.
Halo 1 was never difficult with Cortana telling you were to go and the waypoint on screen. Assault on the Control/Two Betrayals has arrows on the hallway floors and I never got turned around in The Library.
If you really want labyrinth level design from Bungie, the Marathon series is were it's at and completely explains why there's so much hand holding in Halo CE.
Subnautica and Hollow Knight spring to mind
Wait, open world, specific upgrades needed to access new areas and progress the story... I think Subnautica is a secret metroidvania. It's just most of the upgrades are "you can go deeper now".
Subnautica's art direction does give me Metroid Prime vibes.
That's what a lot of the upgrades boil down to, yeah. Air tanks increase endurance, fins and seaglide increase movement speed, rebreather eliminates an endurance draining effect at depth, seabases and submarines allow you to start your dive from greater than zero depth. Pretty much all of that boils down to "dives to this depth are now practicable."
Other than that, the knife allows you to harvest plate coral for making computer chips, kelp for making fabric, and seeds for plants. The scanner is required to obtain the blueprints for several other required buildables. The mobile vehicle bay is required to build the Cyclops. The Cyclops is required to make the shield module. A radiation suit...I think speedrunners don't use it and just tank the damage with medkits, but I consider it a requirement.
There is one straight-up key you have to craft; there are several others for required or optional doors but you only have to craft one to complete the game and two to unlock all doors.
There's a tool that is like Half-Life 2's gravity gun, which can be used to move heavy obstacles out of paths, but it's never outright required for anything. I usually don't bother with it.
The laser cutter is required, You have to cut through one of two doors in the Aurora to gain access to the Captain's Cabin.
Serious headfuck of a puzzle game.
Glad someone posted this game. It had no right be fucking good lol
I was looking for this one. I really enjoyed the game, but the amount of days I spent going back and forth trying to find the next path was nuts!
I still think about how I managed to finish it once, then tried again 1 month later only to be completely dumbfounded as to how to get the damn yellow block upgrade again
Just started playing a simple isometric game called Tunic. It's cute, and you play as a little button mashing fox creature with a sword in a language that's gibberish as you find hidden paths in the isometric style. It's frustrating for being so simplistic, because the hidden paths are hidden. I kinda like it so far tho. Just simple, relaxing, chill music, and cute AF artwork.
Absolutely adored that game! It's one of those that I wish I could replay without having remembers how I uncovered all the various secrets.
It is super, super cute. I started it on a whim and I love that it doesn't really give ya anything. Like a souls-like game, it's just 'figure it out as you go' but a cute fox and bug creatures.
Fantastic game. If you haven't been already, you can tilt the camera slightly to get a peek at some of the hidden paths.
Yeah with the lock on button? When I figured out that holding the dodge button let me sprint, it blew my mind haha
Metroid and Legend of Zelda I and II for NES.
Metroid for sure.
Metroid 2 was really bad for this too. If I hadn't been on a very long and boring vacation all those years ago, I probably would have never finished it.
Everyone should feel free to start their Metroid journey with Super Metroid.
For me it's always been Zelda games.
I honestly cannot fathom how someone WITHOUT NINTENDO POWER would figure out East Peninsula is the Secret and to burn a specific bush
I spent so long on the 3DS in ocarina of time just running all over the entire map not sure how to progress, I eventually gave up. Those stupid boulders are supposed to give you tips but idk I just couldn't figure it out back then.
Son, you’re talking to a guy who spoke no English when he first played the legend of Zelda for NES. Talk about playing a game that doesn’t tell you where to go next
Animal Well, but that's kinda the point
Morrowind, but in a good way
I still remember the first time playing morrowind and being blown away by the freedom. For some reason my clearest memory of that game is a dude falling from the sky and splatting. Then I stole his magic boots and died the same way.
Bro nothing will ever beat fucking metroid for the nes.
Main progression literally behind random wall tiles you have to bomb
I had tried a few times before, but the first time I actually completed Metroid 1 was just after its remake, Zero Mission. The original game was included (also as a bonus in one of the Metroid Prime).
The thing is, the map structure is the same (just with extra levels, more puzzles and ability gating). Power-ups and bosses that already existed in 1 are at the exact same spots. Helps a lot if you can just remember where important stuff is supposed to be.
Myst 3 and hollow knight got me that way. Hollow knight was the worst, I simply couldn’t tell where I needed to go and where I’d already been 😅
I like hollow knight, but i don't think i can ever go back to that game. I had so much fun for a few hours and then i walked around for an hour or two, being beyond lost.
Interestingly that's the exact thing I loved about Hollow Knight. I got so immersed in the exploration specifically because I got lost. On my first playthrough I ended up sequence breaking the game and cleared out deepnest, ancient basin, hive and kingdoms end before the city of tears. I was way out of my depth and I loved every moment of it.
Myst 😭
I'm gonna have to go super old school on this, because I think gradually games have gotten progressively better about this as the art form advanced. The absolute worst for this that I know of for this has to be "Below The Root" which, despite this point of criticism was a mind-blowingly advanced game for its time, arguably the first real open world CRPG. I have no idea how anyone could've legitimately completed the game without either using a guide or playing it over and over for years to learn every possible route of progress. I think the confusing nature of the world was in fact simply because nothing of that scale had ever really been attempted before and there was absolutely no precedent for how to adequately guide players through it.
The world was, for its time, truly immense and sprawling with a multiple screen interiors for most buildings, a full cave system hidden underground, ladders and secret platforms aplenty. You could converse and trade with various NPCs in houses and wandering around on many of the screens. And when I say "screens" you have to keep in mind I'm talking about something this size. That is not a lot of context to work with for navigation.
It's also full of secrets and hidden things, and like many games of the time you will need to find and use pretty much all of them, in pretty much a specific order, to actually complete the game. I can't even describe how insane the sequence of events you need to do to actually complete the game is, this guy uses a guide and save states but I think it illustrates the general lack of clear guidance in almost all cases. Combine that with the fact that you "die" easily, your inventory is extremely limited capacity, and did I mention you're on a time limit? Because the "goal" of the game is to rescue a guy and if you take too long, he dies and you can't win anymore!
Many naive players (myself included) weren't even convinced it HAD an ending and just kind of played it endlessly like it was some early version of The Sims.
Any metroid game.
Halo ce?
I got lost a few times in that game as a kid. I do not htink it is too bad these days. I think it was a matter of being put in a significantly larger world from what we were used to.
I've played it so many times at this point, I think I could navigate it without enemies or needing to click on consoles it with my eyes closed.
I would say many games with procedural generated worlds, like Minecraft, No Man's Sky, etc. Where the main task is deciding where do I go next, where do I settle down, maybe there is some better place over the next hill, next planet, etc.
There are other games, where it is also sometimes not quite clear what to do next. Like games have a lot of progression and rebuilding of stuff that was done before because of it. Like Satisfactory, Factorio, etc.
And on a more literal sense, where you actually redo the game over and over to progress, like The Stanley Parable or Outer Wilds.
Some games have a very labyrinthine level design, where it also isn't really clear what to do next, like Dark Souls, Subnautica, etc.
Or environment puzzles, where you have to figure out how to progress, like the Myst series, Riven, etc.
Open ended games, like Minecraft and NMS , can be really hard for people who only play 'on rails' type games to wrap their minds around. 'Whats the point?', the same one as in living your life.
Also, personal opinion, Stanley Parable is NOT a game. It is a walking simulator with a bunch of bad philosophy thrown in.
Wherever Stanley Parable is a game or not, isn't really important. Someone could make the argument that open ended games, without a clear winning or completion state aren't games, but instead simulations.
Someone could argue that the winning or completion state of Stanley Parable is seeing all endings.
Other people say that to be a game, you need some kind of adversary or challenge to overcome, but that would depend on the definition of challenge. Is figuring out what to do in order to see a ending you haven't seen before a challenge? If not, that would exclude many other genres.
So I just do not want to down the road of making useless distinctions, and be liberal in my understanding of words, and just ask if something is not clear.
I just call Stanley Parable a game, because the creators call it a game, you can buy it and games similar to it for game consoles and on Steam under the game category. Wherever you can or cannot find enjoyment in experiencing it, does not depend on wherever it is a game or not.
Came looking for someone to say Minecraft. If I'm not good about intentionally placing landmarks and the like I can get myself lost very easily. And sometimes even when I do place landmarks and write down the coordinates of my starting place! I have to tryhard on keeping directions, placing markers everywhere, on crafting maps with a little icon that shows where I am, to prevent getting lost when exploring. Admittedly I am not the greatest with directions in real life.
0 0 0 best place to build your base to not get lost x)
And as a bonus, you spawn there without needing a bed
I've just finished Turok for the first time. Some of these levels are absurd.
Turok 1? Cause IIRC there's only a couple areas where I feel you can get stuck unless you really think about things. For the most part you just explore all parts of the map until you find the right place to go.
The one that first comes to mind is the level where you've got to find a bunch of switches to raises "stairs" over a pit of lava. Again, IIRC. The other one is a place where you've got to know that falling off the cliff won't kill you. But IIRC you can see the tree tops in that area which you wouldn't see in an area where falling will kill you.
Yeah, the maze with button platforms is catacombs, that was definitely the one that had me stuck the longest time. Partly because of the maze-like structure and partly because it relies on a few climbable walls that are a lot less obvious than the usual and a very missable teleport tile.
There's also plenty of places especially in treetop village where I was like "how the fuck am I supposed to go there?". Turns out none of them is really necessary (and some might just not be normally accessible, even though they have items?) but that's still confusing.
And even though I didn't get lost too bad in it, Final confrontation surprised me. From the name I went into it expecting maybe a short level and the boss fight. That thing took forever to go through. I even had multiple moments where I was like, "lots of ammo, music is becoming ominous, here we are, boss fight"... And... No. Just another room full of enemies.
La Mulana for sure! It's a game where you play as professor Lemeza Kosugi (i.e. Japanese Indiana Jones) exploring an ancient temple. I admit that I did not have the patience for it. The map is huge and exploration is very non-linear. You also have to solve fairly obscure puzzles. If you really wanted to give it a go, I'd keep hand-written or typed notes separate from the in-game notes. They only let you save so much data at once, and you need more notes (or a good memory). I still kind of loved exploring the maps even partially though. It's pretty huge and ambitious in scope.
The combat and movement are not fantastic though. Not bad, but they feel very limiting compared to typical metroidvanias that let you style on enemies as you get better at the game. The game is not very shy about how it enjoys killing you too! I respect it, but it was tough for me to enjoy.
Came here to say this!
Unreal. I stopped playing when I couldn't find the exit.
Edit: But to be honest that was kind of the norm back then. I hated Half Life for popularising the more linear level design.
I don't know, man, I ran around hugging every wall of deserted Doom and Wolfenstein 3D levels that a) noclip became the default way to play those games, and b) Half-Life felt like an amazing breath of fresh air.
Well, Quake 2 did, I guess. Half-Life felt like the next-gen take on that idea.
My pet theory is that the whole "liminal" trend got triggered by that feeling you get walking around areas of hell you've completely decimated.
The original Final Fantasy. If you don't have a walk-through open next to you I have no idea how you would naturally beat the game in a respectable time frame.
Everytime this game got ported, I'd retry it. I'd get over the bridge, get into town, fight the pirates, earn the boat... and get completely lost.
All of fucking Bloodborne. Fast travel is great. Building into the narrative where you don’t tell the story directly? Fuck that.
It feels like such a silly example now that I know the game, but tales of symphonia made me give up for about three years before coming back and beating it. There's a section where you're supposed to go to a specific city to progress, but there's a semi-secret long way around that lets you experience a different character's story early. Well, I somehow sucked at following directions and went the semi-secret way, and then couldn't figure out how to get ANYWHERE that let you do anything. I wandered around the same continent for several months (playing a few hours a week) before moving on.
I’ve probably played a bunch, but the one that most comes to mind is Antechamber. Super weird FPS puzzle game ala portal but with a lot of mindbending illusions, non-Euclidean geometry, etc.
It’s got a metroidvania structure but without much guidance and a lot of stuff will just loop you back to where you’ve been if you’re not getting things right. At some point I was just completely lost. I couldn’t possibly think of where I haven’t tried to go or do. Worst part if I tried to look up a guide I don’t even know where I’d begin to look.
Unlike the others here, I would argue that this is supposed to be this way - it's a mind bending puzzle after all.
Uhg, I'm pretty sure I got 90% of the way through that game and then I took a break for some reason or another. Came back and was just completely lost. And just like you, cant even look up a guide because I don't know where I'd begin to look.
Daggerfall
Such a great hangout game. As a kid with a vivid imagination and not enough English understanding to follow the plot I enjoyed my time just roaming around crafting spells and exploring samey dungeons a whole lot.
I got certainly the most lost I've ever been in a game in a Daggerfall dungeon, trying desperately to find the tiny wall tag that's supposed to be the exit.
Those are torture.
Myst, sometimes Max Payne, Doom 3, Tomb Raider
Prince of Persia Warrior Within
I don't remember that one being too bad. I actually beat that one, unlike Two Thrones
Two thrones is a cake walk compared to WW
Oof yep I feel that one. I love the wheel and spoke moderately open world level design, but if you actually need to move the story it can be very difficult to find where the next bits are.
The Outer Worlds is a perfect example of this in the best way possible.
Riven
The original Bard's Tale
Me and my best friend literally spent a month of near nightly playing trying to get through the first in-town dungeon
Daggerfall also fits the bill
The problem with Daggerfall is that the dungeons are procedurally generated. I have spent hours digging through a dungeon, hugging the right wall and spam clicking on every surface for a hidden door, to eventually give up and hotkey through all the spawn spots, to find the quest target in a disconnect glitched out dungeon segment.
I would love to see a complete remake of Daggerfall with the same randomly generated dungeons; I'm not sure that the random landscape and dungeon generation would work with the way games are programmed now though.
Come to think of it, re-doing Morrowind, Arena, Battlespire, and Redquard would be neat, too.
The first 4 Tomb Raider games on PC/PS1
Digimon World on PS1, made worse by the fact that it's a tamagotchi roguelite RPG. I never played DW3, but I heard it can easily become a "where the fuck do I go now?" because of obtuse/asshole time sinking designs here and there
Atari's ET. Game was bugged. Every 80's kid that bought this was disappointed. It is the worst video game in history and all unsold copies were buried in a landfill only to be rediscovered decades later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.T._the_Extra-Terrestrial_(video_game)
The High Score is a great documentary that actually has the guy that developed it. I think he was high when he developed it which explains a lot.
Wow. Did not know this existed. Thanks!
It's a bad game for sure, but it is far from the worst game in history
It’s not bad if you learn how to play it. A little too ambitious. The reputation is unearned. It’s not like the Pac Man port, which was just straight shit.
Blue Prince for me right now.
It's SO GOOD. If you're reading this and you like puzzle/mystery games, play it now, play it blind, and have a pad and paper handy.
Yeah it's good in a lot of ways but especially early on you can just get stuck with no way to progress in a day due to bad luck. Also, many synergies require a sequence of specific randomly-generated rooms and the resources to use them when they show up (and in viable locations). But there are a number of permanent upgrades that make it much more consistent, and a few of the minor upgrades are fairly common.
Halo ce campaign.
Try Platoon on the NES, you get bombarded by ennemies while you have to find your way through this abomination of a maze!
Every
Single
Old
Game.
I hate it
As an old game player. If I stop and think about it, I really hate that I get frustrated /bored if I'm playing a game that doesn't tell you what to do / where to go at every moment.
To me I've feel like I've lost my sense of adventure.
Maybe it's also a time factor too, I don't have the same amount of time to play when I was a kid.
Having said that, game design certainly has improved over the years and lessons learned in what not to do when it comes to level design!
If you can't figure out Super Mario Bros then gaming just isn't for you.
I've installed Myst around 10 times and I haven't gotten anywhere with it. I refuse to look at solutions because its a legendary puzzle game and I will not be beaten by it, but also I'm not at all sure what to do at all. I have never solved a single puzzle. I'm never even sure what's interactive or not, or if I'm even looking at a puzzle or just seeing clues where there are none.
I should try it again soon...
Zork. God forbid you forget to look mailbox
Star Flight. I played it on Genesis, and it's still one of the greatest games I've ever played.
One space ship, 270 solar systems, and 800 planets. The manual included a captain's log that was sent back in time from the future, but without that you'd just be scouring the stars for clues, interrogating aliens, digging through ancient ruins, and watching slowly as a rash of planet-destroying solar flares spreads through the galaxy.
So fucking good.
Sounds interesting. Reminds me somewhat of Uncharted Waters, which is a naval RPG set around 1560. You could visit ports all over Europe, Middle East and Africa, probably over India and Japan, too, doing trade runs or living a pirate's life.
A lot of the game is scanning planets, gathering resources, and upgrading your ship. The upgrades allow you to gather more resources, explore further, and get better weapons so you can survive hostile alien encounters.
If you ever have the opportunity, I highly recommend giving it a try.
