What are some good examples of "Where the fuck do you go" kind of games?
We've all played them. Backtracking, not knowing where to go. Going back and forth. Name some of these games from your memory. I'll start: Final Fantasy XIII-2, RE1
Chrono Trigger had me looking up guides as several points just to find a way to progress.
Control had me wandering around.
That's one of the best games I've played with one of the worst map designs I've ever seen.
I actually gave up because I was lost in an office most of the time.
This is an extremely specific situation in a game, but...
In World of Warcraft, back in the day, there was a dungeon in Outland, I believe it was Helfire Citadel. It wasn't particularly hard, but if you died, you were screwed. The way dungeon deaths worked was your spirit would spawn in a graveyard out in the regular world, and you would have to run your spirit ass back to the dungeon entrance to respawn. But finding the entrance to Helfire Citadel was so difficult I told the group if they don't rez me, they'd have to just kick me, because I'd never make it back in. It was awful.
Most recently it's Clair Obscur Expedition 33. There's an actual overworld map but you need to get your bearings in area maps and dungeons because there are none. You'll have to use local landmarks to get around, find clues for hidden areas, and the direction you actually need to go. I've spent hours in single areas just getting lost admiring the design and artwork.
Metroid and Legend of Zelda I and II for NES.
Metroid for sure.
Abiotic Factor, survival in a facility like Half-Life with crafting, survival and exploration. Really great game and it's pretty hard understanding where to go
I would say many games with procedural generated worlds, like Minecraft, No Man's Sky, etc. Where the main task is deciding where do I go next, where do I settle down, maybe there is some better place over the next hill, next planet, etc.
There are other games, where it is also sometimes not quite clear what to do next. Like games have a lot of progression and rebuilding of stuff that was done before because of it. Like Satisfactory, Factorio, etc.
And on a more literal sense, where you actually redo the game over and over to progress, like The Stanley Parable or Outer Wilds.
Some games have a very labyrinthine level design, where it also isn't really clear what to do next, like Dark Souls, Subnautica, etc.
Or environment puzzles, where you have to figure out how to progress, like the Myst series, Riven, etc.
Space Quest
Came here to say the King's Quest games, but really it's any of the _ Quest titles.
I remember the newes jedi game feeling like this a lot, but it was also effectively immersive that you don't instantly know exactly where to go.
SNES Jurassic Park. NES Fester's Quest
The Outer Worlds is a perfect example of this in the best way possible.
For me it's always been Zelda games.
Oh man. For me, Tetris. Every time.
I get past the first dungeon no problems, and find the heart container, but as soon as I meet that old guy with his kite in the tree I'm lost. I think I need to craft a slingshot or something but I've no idea where to get the rubber for an elastic band.
Any FF if you set it down for a month or two.
"Welp, I will just start it over, I guess."
Done this FF9 sooo many times
Currently my situation with VI
The old text adventures where being able to solve a puzzle required hitting the right words. "Oh, twist, not pull."
Dear God those text parser adventures. I remember playing Hugo's House of Horrors and trying for the longest time to remove some screws from a grate.
Okay screws np.
UNSCREW SCREWS
I don't know how to do that.
REMOVE SCREWS
I don't know how to do that.
Reeeee... Turns out it only responded specifically to UNDO SCREWS
It is like a game designed by a bitter English teacher.
Devil May Cry 4, but I was able to finish it. I couldn't even complete Devil May Cry 3.
Atari's ET. Game was bugged. Every 80's kid that bought this was disappointed. It is the worst video game in history and all unsold copies were buried in a landfill only to be rediscovered decades later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.T._the_Extra-Terrestrial_(video_game)
The High Score is a great documentary that actually has the guy that developed it. I think he was high when he developed it which explains a lot.
It's a bad game for sure, but it is far from the worst game in history
Wow. Did not know this existed. Thanks!
It feels like such a silly example now that I know the game, but tales of symphonia made me give up for about three years before coming back and beating it. There's a section where you're supposed to go to a specific city to progress, but there's a semi-secret long way around that lets you experience a different character's story early. Well, I somehow sucked at following directions and went the semi-secret way, and then couldn't figure out how to get ANYWHERE that let you do anything. I wandered around the same continent for several months (playing a few hours a week) before moving on.
I was playing Star Wars: Bounty Hunter on Switch today because of the current free trial. At first, running around as Jango Fett in the Gamecube era was fun, but then shortly after getting my jet pack, I get completely turned around while chasing the bounty guy and spend over a half hour being lost. Called it quits after that.
La-Mulana
Probably half life. It's kinda intentionally tricky and meant to be some kind of puzzle
Subnautica and Hollow Knight spring to mind
Wait, open world, specific upgrades needed to access new areas and progress the story... I think Subnautica is a secret metroidvania. It's just most of the upgrades are "you can go deeper now".
Subnautica's art direction does give me Metroid Prime vibes.
This one's pretty controversial, but if you've never played it before,
Half Life 1
It's really confusing and enemies will pop out of nowhere and kill you instantly. Not really fun imo, but then again I AM playing it for the first time 27 years after it came out 😂
I'm sure Black Mesa is more intuitive though.
Make sure you listen to the NPCs. They give you clues like being quiet around the big beaky things that one shot you. Also, if it is really big you guns do nothing. Go and find the other way to destroy it.
Which bits in particular? Because on one hand it's a fairly linear design, but on the other there are some bits that can loop around themselves and objectives aren't always obvious.
You want the absolute "guide damn it" example? Try playing the OG Dragon Quest games. They're nonlinear by nature and there's a spot in 2 (or was it 3) where you need to literally check an unmarked floor for an item. No indicator, save maybe a vague NPC dialogue in another part of the planet that didn't get adequately translated in English so you're truly aimless.
Ecco the Dolphin is literally impossible without a guide.
That game was like an unforgiving crack rock
I am not really seeing it. I did finish it without a guide back then. It was the Windows 9x port, but I don't think it changes much.
Really in my case a guide would not help for the hardest parts, which were mostly the crazy moves needed to push those floating things to break rocks and to swim against currents with boulders.
designed that way to make more money on people renting it over and over to try and beat it IIRC
Morrowind.
Can you find this person whom wandered off into the ashlands? They went east-ish.
I've spent more time than I'd like to admit in the Construction Kit to find out where in Vivec's name I had to go this time. Usually it turned out I just barely missed the person or location I had to go before starting an hourlong search.
But despite that still a game I deeply love.
Jesus, the finding people thing was tough, but finding the quest item that I had already looted from a grave and either dropped or sold to a random merchant? Game ending, man.
This was me lmao. On my first playthrough of Morrowind as a teenager I dicked around and did everything except the main quest for ages. Around level 18 I decided to actually progress the main quest. Hasphat, check. Arkngthand, no sweat. Talk to Sharn Gra-Muzgob, she says to fetch the Skull of Llevule Andrano. Cool, go to Andrano's tomb, looks kind of familiar. Where is the Skull of Llevule Andrano? Cause it sure ain't here in his tomb. Whoopsie.
Never found the skull, never progressed the quest, had to start a new character to actually experience the main story. I wonder how many potential Nerevarines failed to ascend due to missing minor quest items. Wish I could ask em that inside the Cavern of the Incarnate.
That's what I like about the game. The NPCs tell you where to go to the best of their ability, and you follow to the best of yours. I like it a hell of a lot more than quest markers.
There is at least one occasion where NPCs just straight up lie to you in quest directions though. I can't think of it off the top of my head but I remember it existing because I complained about it on a forum.
On one hand - great worldbuilding! "Local dumbass gives you bad directions" is a funny and memorable point on top of what might otherwise be a forgettable side quest. On the other hand, I spent the better part of four hours looking for whatever egg mine or ancestral tomb or whatever it was he asked me to find before getting fed up and having UESP tell me "lol no actually it's off in this complete other direction", and I'm pretty sure I assassinated that NPC after I turned in his quest.
The number of times I totally overshot distance based on the quest description and ended up in the Ashlands....
Pocahontas on Sega Genesis. I don't even remember the plot, but I got stuck and had to return it to Blockbuster.
Final Fantasy 7 has a lot of mini versions of this moment because the level art is rarely distinguished from the actual terrain you can interact with so sometimes you kinda get stuck until you realise that this time that little ramp is actually something your supposed to walk up rather than un-interactable scenery like all those previous times.
There is a setting you can enable to make entrance and exit visible if I remember correctly
in the development a lot of stuff got cut too so there was art meant to be interacted with that ended up not being
Animal Well, but that's kinda the point
Prince of Persia Warrior Within
Oof yep I feel that one. I love the wheel and spoke moderately open world level design, but if you actually need to move the story it can be very difficult to find where the next bits are.
Divinity: Original Sin 1. took about eighty odd hours to get to the door that says sorry mate, not enough magic stones
That's my experience with 99% of old school point and click games. At some point in every one it devolved into me running in circles and trying every item on every object.
Yeah, basically every game that runs on scummvm is a good candidate here: leisure suit Larry, kings quest, police quest, the dig, sam and max, Indiana jones and the fate of Atlantis, all the sierra and lucasarts ones
Myst series is another good one. Journeyman project trilogy. These all ruled when I was like 12 years old
I miss when games were confusing and aimless by default. I know there are still games like this but I feel like the default now is a game that’s like “oh hey, go down this hallway full of locked doors! Except one door is unlocked, that’s a secret area, good for you! But otherwise go down the hallway to the next hallway!”
Also the end of the hallway is glowing, and there’s a pulsating dot on your minimap. And if you take 5 seconds longer than needed, your character says to himself: “maybe I should go to the end of this hallway”.
Oh man, king's quest. Those games were literally impossible without a guide and you needed to go to areas in very specific steps to not softlock the game.
When I played Day of the Tentacle I got stuck. Eventually I caved in and ordered the official hint book. Mind you, back then this entailed mailing a physical letter and the money somewhere. I guess my parents helped with that. And then you had to wait for your order to arrive. And the post was a lot slower than today.
I waited weeks for the book to arrive. And then, the day before it came, I finished the game. Use physics book with horse was the last puzzle I needed.
But the money wasn't wasted entirely. The game's story was written down from the pov of one of the characters. Pretty funny.
What a solid game and experience. I've played through it so many times, and I can't ever get over Bernard's voice actor being Les Nessman from WKRP in Cincinnatti
The worse is when a solution seems obvious but doesn't work. Then you lose your mind clicking everything until you get the actual solution.
Never had this issue with monkey island games...
Zelda: Link's Awakening on the GameBoy Color in the mid-90s. I got to the second temple, and was totally stuck - to progress I needed to learn to jump, which I inferred was in this temple, but I just couldn't figure out where it was.
Wandered all over the available map, which of course was constrained due to lacking the jump skill and other story-driven tools. Nothing.
Finally bought a game guide, which explained to me that I needed to bomb a wall in one room in the second temple to progress. It was indicated by a small crack, a staple in Zelda games but invisible to me in my first experience with the series.
The cherry on top was that by that point, I didn't have any bombs to break the wall, and I recall that I didn't have the ability to buy or acquire any and had to restart the game to progress past the point where I was stuck.
After that point, Zelda: Links Awakening became one of my favorite games of my childhood. It is hilarious how much frustration it caused me before that realization.
When I was 5 or 6, my grandmother got a NES and three games. One was Crystalis.
Me and my two cousins played the game in turns, and we eventually got to the first boss, which was quite an achievement because there are puzzle elements to the game.
We could not beat this boss. Several years later, I have my own NES and I borrow Crystalis. I'm pretty sure I got to that boss again and realized something. Hitting him produced a sound that no other monster had. It sounded like hitting solid glass. I finally intuited that I wasn't strong enough and leveled up to level 3, and wouldn't you know it, I beat the boss.
It's one of my all time favorite retro games. It was so ahead of its time. Worth playing if you've never tried it.
Some games really do depend on learned conventions from previous games which can feel a bit unfair to the uninitiated. It's a double edged sword of avoiding too much tutorializing vs alienating newcomers.
Yeah Link's Awakening is the one that came to mind for me. Even after having beaten it, the next time I played it I would still get stuck.
I sorta had the same problem with Ocarina of Time. Was stuck in the Deku Tree basement. Didn’t know you had to use a stick with fire to burn cobweb. I thought the game was broken and was thinking about returning the game until I accidentally solved it by fucking around. Not sure if Navi explained it or not, but my English wasn’t very good when I was 10 and the game didn’t had my native language as an option.
DOOM
Fuck your Blue Key.
still need to get around to beating doom 2. It just got so repetitive I had to take a break
Don't feel too bad about it, the best bits are the first half or so I'd argue.
Zork. God forbid you forget to look mailbox
Myst.
Riven.
Myst III Exile
Every
Single
Old
Game.
I hate it
If you can't figure out Super Mario Bros then gaming just isn't for you.
As an old game player. If I stop and think about it, I really hate that I get frustrated /bored if I'm playing a game that doesn't tell you what to do / where to go at every moment.
To me I've feel like I've lost my sense of adventure.
Maybe it's also a time factor too, I don't have the same amount of time to play when I was a kid.
Having said that, game design certainly has improved over the years and lessons learned in what not to do when it comes to level design!
every Metroid or Castlevania game, to the point metroidvania is a genre.
I actually like those a lot. Just listing some in no particular order:
I'm gonna have to go super old school on this, because I think gradually games have gotten progressively better about this as the art form advanced. The absolute worst for this that I know of for this has to be "Below The Root" which, despite this point of criticism was a mind-blowingly advanced game for its time, arguably the first real open world CRPG. I have no idea how anyone could've legitimately completed the game without either using a guide or playing it over and over for years to learn every possible route of progress. I think the confusing nature of the world was in fact simply because nothing of that scale had ever really been attempted before and there was absolutely no precedent for how to adequately guide players through it.
The world was, for its time, truly immense and sprawling with a multiple screen interiors for most buildings, a full cave system hidden underground, ladders and secret platforms aplenty. You could converse and trade with various NPCs in houses and wandering around on many of the screens. And when I say "screens" you have to keep in mind I'm talking about something this size. That is not a lot of context to work with for navigation.
It's also full of secrets and hidden things, and like many games of the time you will need to find and use pretty much all of them, in pretty much a specific order, to actually complete the game. I can't even describe how insane the sequence of events you need to do to actually complete the game is, this guy uses a guide and save states but I think it illustrates the general lack of clear guidance in almost all cases. Combine that with the fact that you "die" easily, your inventory is extremely limited capacity, and did I mention you're on a time limit? Because the "goal" of the game is to rescue a guy and if you take too long, he dies and you can't win anymore!
Many naive players (myself included) weren't even convinced it HAD an ending and just kind of played it endlessly like it was some early version of The Sims.
I’ve probably played a bunch, but the one that most comes to mind is Antechamber. Super weird FPS puzzle game ala portal but with a lot of mindbending illusions, non-Euclidean geometry, etc.
It’s got a metroidvania structure but without much guidance and a lot of stuff will just loop you back to where you’ve been if you’re not getting things right. At some point I was just completely lost. I couldn’t possibly think of where I haven’t tried to go or do. Worst part if I tried to look up a guide I don’t even know where I’d begin to look.
Uhg, I'm pretty sure I got 90% of the way through that game and then I took a break for some reason or another. Came back and was just completely lost. And just like you, cant even look up a guide because I don't know where I'd begin to look.
Unlike the others here, I would argue that this is supposed to be this way - it's a mind bending puzzle after all.
Uncharted 1
Shiet, I'm still having this problem with more recent Naughty Dog games. Getting the hint option that pops up when you've been stuck somewhere for a while in The Last of Us Part 2 Remastered embarrasses me. Though I am thankful that it's there.
I've just finished Turok for the first time. Some of these levels are absurd.
Turok 1? Cause IIRC there's only a couple areas where I feel you can get stuck unless you really think about things. For the most part you just explore all parts of the map until you find the right place to go.
The one that first comes to mind is the level where you've got to find a bunch of switches to raises "stairs" over a pit of lava. Again, IIRC. The other one is a place where you've got to know that falling off the cliff won't kill you. But IIRC you can see the tree tops in that area which you wouldn't see in an area where falling will kill you.
Yeah, the maze with button platforms is catacombs, that was definitely the one that had me stuck the longest time. Partly because of the maze-like structure and partly because it relies on a few climbable walls that are a lot less obvious than the usual and a very missable teleport tile.
There's also plenty of places especially in treetop village where I was like "how the fuck am I supposed to go there?". Turns out none of them is really necessary (and some might just not be normally accessible, even though they have items?) but that's still confusing.
And even though I didn't get lost too bad in it, Final confrontation surprised me. From the name I went into it expecting maybe a short level and the boss fight. That thing took forever to go through. I even had multiple moments where I was like, "lots of ammo, music is becoming ominous, here we are, boss fight"... And... No. Just another room full of enemies.
Lego Harry Potter
For fucks sake it was obtuse. I had to use a walkthrough to figure out what to do next multiple times just in the first episode
Blue Prince for me right now.
Yeah it's good in a lot of ways but especially early on you can just get stuck with no way to progress in a day due to bad luck. Also, many synergies require a sequence of specific randomly-generated rooms and the resources to use them when they show up (and in viable locations). But there are a number of permanent upgrades that make it much more consistent, and a few of the minor upgrades are fairly common.
It's SO GOOD. If you're reading this and you like puzzle/mystery games, play it now, play it blind, and have a pad and paper handy.
Fallout 1: If you play it going in blind and don't look up help, a first playthrough can be stressful early on if you don't know how much progress you are making on the time limited main quest.
Kenshi: The game doesn't have quests or main goals, so it is up to the player to figure out what they want and how to get it. Certain game areas are lethally dangerous, factions can be angered if you don't figure out their customs, and even in less lethal areas being beaten and crippled by bandits is a real problem.
hell yeah kenshi mentioned. Honestly the game feels like 'slop', but is fun as hell also in an old-school RuneScape type of way
excited for the 2nd game on unreal engine (but small dev team, might take couple more years)
The Gang Gets Abducted by Religious Slavers for Not Joining The Book Readings.
I hate timers on games that give you little guidance. People claim that Fallout 1's timer is too lenient, but I ended up replaying (and failing) the game twice and still not coming close to finding the water chip. Also, the game constantly reminds you "We're all dying, hurry up! Every minute you take is an other life lost!". Same reason I dislike Lightning Returns.
I've installed Myst around 10 times and I haven't gotten anywhere with it. I refuse to look at solutions because its a legendary puzzle game and I will not be beaten by it, but also I'm not at all sure what to do at all. I have never solved a single puzzle. I'm never even sure what's interactive or not, or if I'm even looking at a puzzle or just seeing clues where there are none.
I should try it again soon...
Bro nothing will ever beat fucking metroid for the nes.
Main progression literally behind random wall tiles you have to bomb
I had tried a few times before, but the first time I actually completed Metroid 1 was just after its remake, Zero Mission. The original game was included (also as a bonus in one of the Metroid Prime).
The thing is, the map structure is the same (just with extra levels, more puzzles and ability gating). Power-ups and bosses that already existed in 1 are at the exact same spots. Helps a lot if you can just remember where important stuff is supposed to be.
Serious headfuck of a puzzle game.
Glad someone posted this game. It had no right be fucking good lol
The original Final Fantasy. If you don't have a walk-through open next to you I have no idea how you would naturally beat the game in a respectable time frame.
Everytime this game got ported, I'd retry it. I'd get over the bridge, get into town, fight the pirates, earn the boat... and get completely lost.
I think I managed to get the Earth and Fire Crystals and couldn't figure out how to get to where the Water Crystal was. All of THAT was from literal wandering.
Halo ce campaign.
Oh snap, time to go back 30 years and get lost in Alone in the Dark again!
Unreal. I stopped playing when I couldn't find the exit.
Edit: But to be honest that was kind of the norm back then. I hated Half Life for popularising the more linear level design.
I don't know, man, I ran around hugging every wall of deserted Doom and Wolfenstein 3D levels that a) noclip became the default way to play those games, and b) Half-Life felt like an amazing breath of fresh air.
Well, Quake 2 did, I guess. Half-Life felt like the next-gen take on that idea.
My pet theory is that the whole "liminal" trend got triggered by that feeling you get walking around areas of hell you've completely decimated.
Daggerfall
Such a great hangout game. As a kid with a vivid imagination and not enough English understanding to follow the plot I enjoyed my time just roaming around crafting spells and exploring samey dungeons a whole lot.
I got certainly the most lost I've ever been in a game in a Daggerfall dungeon, trying desperately to find the tiny wall tag that's supposed to be the exit.
Those are torture.
Legend of dragoon
