What features are missing from piefed, or, why aren't we reccommending piefed instead of lemmy?
Every time I go to the piefed frontpage I'm blown away by how much more polished it is. It has all the bells and whistles that lemmy is sometimes missing.
Whats the catch? Why aren't we recommending everyone goes to piefed instead of lemmy?
App support is one thing I can think of.
Do we have to recommand it? Do to the nature of the threadiverse, Lemmy content is available on PieFed and PieFed content is available on Lemmy. It is mostly a matter of chosing an instance. We could surely add an PieFed recommendation to our go to threadiverse instance but is there instance culture there yet?
Shouldn't we recommand it first to active user, the ones that create and animate communities, the ones that would create new feeds making those instances more alive?
I think it's good that PieFed is so small, that means they can move faster and innovate more without fearing that things will break for thousands of people. I think it's good that a project like PieFed can try things and see what works and sticks and this is then a good indicator for projects like Lemmy to copy what is good and leave out what is not good.
Apps make or break those platforms. Lemmy apps are way better than what Mastodon has for example (but I have to tip my hat to Phanpy). We got really lucky that Lemmy exploded in popularity due to Reddit API changes which meant many app developers gave Lemmy a shot. I probably wouldn’t use Lemmy so much if Voyager didn’t fill the hole Apollo left in my heart.
If it can get apps, ill probably be more on it.
I love you lemmy.world but I would rather like to run my own piefed.
Voyager is so polished, it elevates the whole experience.
Phanpy is phenomenal and fixes a lot of the problems Mastodon and all microblogging platforms have.
Mona is also a good app.
Probably app support. If Lemmy didn’t have wefwef/voyager during the API debacle of 2023, I probably would not have stuck around. The default UI is terrible for mobile.
The default UI is terrible for mobile.
I'm definitely in the minority, but I prefer the Web UI on mobile to apps
I also like the default UI, even if it's not the prettiest. But for mindless scrolling I prefer Voyager.
We have data on what it costs to run a sizeable instance of Lemmy and it's not a lot. How does Piefed compare? Anyone starting an instance who envisions it growing large has to contend with this question. Currently it seems it's got a bit under 1000 users across under 10 servers.
There are now sizeable communities run on Lemmy instances that are reinforced by network effects. There needs to be a significant reason for them to migrate. To that point, the collective project is building communities away from corporate power, not software. The software is a tool to facilitate that. Lemmy has worked well so far in this regard. If someone can show that Piefed can work better and not cost significantly more, it'll probably get adopted for new communities. If the difference is drastic, we may even see migrations from Lemmy.
We won't 100% know the answer to that until we get there. But in 2025 fear of a lack of CPU cores is NOT what keeps me awake at night.
Early performance results are positive. Check these links out:
https://join.piefed.social/2024/02/13/technical-performance-of-each-fediverse-platform/
https://join.piefed.social/2024/02/09/comparing-network-utilization-of-lemmy-kbin-and-piefed/
There are many many ways to ruin web app performance and choice of backend language is not really a big one. It's what you do with it that counts.
https://piefed.social/ is running on a low end VPS which costs $7.50 per month. Load average is about 1.45 during the busiest part of the day. Most of the load is caused by federating with lemmy.world and that won't increase as more users come on board.
PieFed is also really efficient with storage. After 16 months of operation, subscribed to every popular community, the piefed.social DB is 30 GB and the media storage is 28 GB. A Lemmy instance would be 10x that. I haven't bothered to add S3 storage code because we just don't need it (yet).
Anyway, all this focus on costs and downsides is only half the coin. There are massive benefits that come from using Python:
For a FOSS project where volunteer contributions from people play a big part these things are really important. There are many ways a project can fail (not just technical reasons but social & governance too) and running out of CPU is way way down on the list.
Thats super impressive. I need to take a look at hosting a personal instance just for the fun of it if its really what it costs.
These performance results are only from the browser side, but dont cover server performance. The database for lemmy.ml is 60 GB, and that is with 6 years of history. Not sure where your 10x claim comes from. The lemmy.ml server costs 70 Euros per month and doesnt have much loa, with almost 10 times as many active users.
using Python
Full disclosure: I like Python a lot and have written a lot of it.
That said, if not for my recent work experiences, I would be absolutely horrified at the idea of using Python for such a project. Between the type system and being interpreted, the performance and runtime issues are pretty painful. That and the historical greater dependence on external application servers really makes Python-based services something that really sucks to administer.
However, as I noted, I have also recently seen Python performing far faster than it has any right to with highly-optimized use of multi-processing and offloading the server stuff to Go.
I think I'm going to have to take a look at Piefed source this weekend.
That's nice info, thanks! Do you know why the db difference?
I second this. Lemmy is written in Rust where as piefed is written in Python. When it comes to running a high-performance webserver, Lemmy has the advantage.
While theoretically true, the main bottleneck with Lemmy seems to be the database performance, so with both projects depending on PostgreSQL for that, I somewhat doubt that Piefed being written in Python will have much noticeable effect in reality.
Yeah, this would be my concern as well if I had to run it. Sure Python apps can be fast and most time is spent in IO, not compute, and if you're running a profitable operation the exact cost of compute might not matter much. However if you're running a non-profit service and you want it to be as dirt cheap as possible so it can be free for most users, then the cost of compute very much does matter.
We have data on what it costs to run a sizeable instance of Lemmy and it’s not a lot. How does Piefed compare? Anyone starting an instance who envisions it growing large has to contend with this question.
I don't think this is a major concern yet. The largest PieFed instance has 308 active users, 2nd place has 34. They've got room to grow.
https://piefed.fediverse.observer/list
People can start posting about PieFed on Reddit and see how the Reddit users react.
But how is that not a concern if you're interested in attracting more users? You run an instance with 500 users. Some thread on Reddit explodes and you get 1000-10000 new users in a few days. If Piefed has poor scaling you might be unable to pay the bills for your now much larger instance. That's not gonna be great for you or the new users.
All your saying is, it looks better. I am not using any Lemmy webfrontend, I've always been using the apps that are available, many of which are absolutely polished.
There's more than that.
Stuff like feeds, topics and better onboarding.
For people that care about that sort of thing, that’s great. I just need the ability to subscribe to communities and comment on posts and Lemmy has been great for that while using voyager
I run a Pixelfed instance. The code is faaaaaaaarrrrr from polished. Its buggy and the admin interface either doesn't work or is poorly implemented. I'd rather run and moderate Lemmy than Pixelfed. I have considered just shutting it down several times. I run the instance https://social.photo/.
My biggest issue with Piefed is how much space the UI uses. Last I checked it didn't have a "compact mode" like current Lemmy or Alexandrite. Browsing communities is also a bit awkward since it shows you so many topics without a way to sort or remove them.
Ok. Watch this space: https://codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi/issues/540
Great!
That is exactly the main reason I created my own theme, but yeah there should be a official compact theme, especially for the mobile phone.
Thank for your feedback.
Maybe you can tell them ? I'm giving feedback to piefed dev on their UI, suggesting ideas is also part of PieFed's development. :)
Why aren't we suggesting Mbin over Lemmy, actually? Because it seems like it has the same options. And Mbin even has an app (not just the PWA function)!
Yes, you are right. Mbin is far more advanced than Lemmy. And PieFed more avanced than Lemmy, less then Mbin.
There are lot neat features in Mbin and PieFed so i wish we consider all options before pushing Lemmy everywhere. I also wish more app support from both of them.
I wish we try to remain neutral because, i strongly believe that the 3 softwares can inspire each other.
Totally agree with you that everyone in the fediverse should be working together. Especially the amazing devs.
Interstellar works with PieFed now although the API it uses is only enabled on one instance https://preferred.social/ as we're still testing it out.
again, the apps are the killer.
iirc, piefed's api is very similar to lemmy's, so apps could support both.
What's missing from Lemmy that would make it unattractive to the average user? Remember the majority of users don't post, comment or otherwise interact with the platform beyond voting.
For those that may only vote and otherwise lurk, there's a decent amount.
The inability to create multi-communities/reddits (or feeds as Piefed calls them), the absence of post-folding/deduplication for when someone posts the same article to multiple communities (sometimes similar, sometimes distinct), the absence of keyword filtering to automatically filter out stuff from local/all feeds one's uninterested in, and these are just a few from the top of my head for those that mostly lurk.
Keyword filtering is about to be merged into Lemmy. Other features will also be added over time.
Fair point, but mobile apps and inertia seem to outweigh those additional features
What’s missing from Lemmy that would make it unattractive to the average user?
I don't think it's always easy to pinpoint UX issues and user friction. Sometimes these things just don't stick with mainstream users. I say it's worth a try to see which platform the average Reddit user will prefer.
But if you're gonna use from a phone, Lemmy's selection of mobile apps is unbeatable.
Fair point. It probably hard to see these things when you've been in the thick of Lemmy for as long as most of us here have. It's easy to dismiss not liking lemmy-ui because alternative frontends exist (written from Photon), but does that matter when the overwhelming majority of instances use it as their landing page.
As I said, it has a lot more polish. Its easier to discover communities, and it has feeds.
Two questions for you, I'm genuinely curious, I hope they don't come up as agressive
I never knew what it was because I'm a bit desensitised to knew apps / app names.
Edit: using https://phtn.app/ has made Lemmy extremely pleasant to use too. I haven't had a better experience on any platform.
Generally, because I think all server-centric AP software is broken and I want to see a client-first application to browse the social web.
Particularly in relation to piefed: it seems to be focused on the exact opposite (giving more power to the server admins) and it takes a good page of social engineering / "nudge theory" principles to guide its design. Much like Mastodon, it seems to be strongly opinionated about how people should behave and it kinda gives me an icky feeling about its culture.
[PieFed] seems to be strongly opinionated about how people should behave and it kinda gives me an icky feeling about its culture
Yea, I get this same feeling. It's not that I mind that culture or being mindful of how people behave and such - I just don't think that is the domain of the software to decide. Individual instances can decide that for themselves, but the software shouldn't influence that kind of thing, I feel.
It may be a bit opiniated, but it's nice to see a different approach from Lemmy devs who don't see the need for any additional moderation tool.
I brought up mod mail during the AMA, it has been considered too complex to implement. A moderation panel with an overview of the mod queue would be nice too, but not a priority.
I'm not saying Piefed is perfect, but at least they prioritize that aspect.
We are working on new moderation features all the time, for example 1.0 will correctly federate instance bans which is quite complicated to get right. There will also be a plugin system which allows for much more flexible mod tools. Its just that our time is very limited for all the work that needs to be done on a project with over 50k active users.
"moderation duties" and "regular participants" in a forum system have such different use cases, it makes no sense to try to make it work with the software itself.
It would be better/faster/easier to simply build a separate tool that can be useful for moderators, instead of trying to shoehorn it in the existing API. But I don't really think that this is something that really bothers people enough, given that last time I asked if I could get 20 people interested to sponsor the development of the moderation tool, and to this day only one person showed up.
If only activitypub c2s didn't suck.
ActivityPub C2S is not the the solution. It still requires a server and it still keeps the admins in control of everything.
ActivityPods seems to be going in the right direction, though...
Is there even a second instance running piefed? I've only seen piefed.social
There's feddit.online and some personal ones I've seen knocking about.
Thanks
I've been running my one person instance for 8 month or something ;)
feddit.online, iirc. check join.piefed.social