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  • I think this has less to do with Microsoft and more to do with the average human has no interest in learning something that only passively helps them.

    I only know a handful of things about working on an automobile, while my father could practically take one apart and put it back together wholesale.

    I can take apart a computer and put it back together wholesale, but I'm lost on an internal combustion engine.

    I pay someone with expertise to handle the engine, because I've spent my time learning other things.

    Look, unless the people you're talking about are doing tech jobs, there isn't a reason for them to learn the depths of it, just like there isn't a reason for them to learn the depths of how their car works. Both a car and a computer are tools, and those tools are made to be used by people who may not know the depths of the internal workings of either.

    This post feels like elitism and gatekeeping to me, as someone who thinks Windows sucks and prefers Linux. The idea that it's the OS that is "holding people back" and not that those people might have more important things to do with their time than dedicate half their life to an operating system is absurd. If someone spends 20 years becoming a doctor, I'm not going to act like they're a dumbass because they don't know everything about fucking computers.

    People don't want to learn more because for most people not knowing more doesn't impact their fucking life. Just like me not knowing more about my car doesn't generally impact my fucking life. Because I've never had trouble finding someone to pay to fix it for me.

    Surprise, we're the people who are paid to fix computers for the people who are just using them as simple tools. Maybe we shouldn't be so upset about that.

    Also, last but not least, Android is a strain of Linux and it suffers from all the same issues listed above as Windows. Acting like you couldn't pull the same bullshit in Linux if you wanted to is kind of a joke, because it's already been done with Android.

    All the ad infested bullshit we all hate about Windows 10 and 11? Blame Linux-based Android.

    EDIT: Also, personal opinion, if we're talking about which CLI is easier to learn and use. Microsoft has made great strides with Powershell being easy and accessible to people who haven't faced a command line environment before. The things that make its command line better than Linux's are two things, and only two things. (I hate that it's object oriented instead of text oriented, Powershell has a lot of bad things, too)

    First, human-readable commands whose names describe what the command does in a verb-noun format. This means instead of Linux with some very, very obscurely named commands that are not descriptive and you just have to sort of memorize, you can just sort of remember because the name is human readable.

    Secondly, the get-command command is huge because it allows me to search these verb-noun names for the command I'm looking for. On Linux, if I don't know the specific command, I have to search the internet, because there isn't a built-in tool that will give me an idea of what each command does and allows me to search for them through a filter. Once you find a command you think might work, it has the get-help command which produces something similar to a Man page.

    Linux has Man pages, but because there is no rhyme or reason to how any commands are named, it's not very easy to find the command you're looking for if you don't already know the command. On Windows, if I know what the command does I may already have enough information to find the command using get-command instead of having to turn to Google and be like "what command do I use if I am trying to do X?"

    So if we're talking about the superiorly designed command line that's easier for first time users. Powershell is where it's at. Because Linux is a confusing fucking mess of 30 years of random decisions by lone programmers. Literally the only reason I know commands in Linux CLI is because I had to memorize them. I don't do so much memorizing Powershell commands. If Linux was being built from scratch today, I'd practically demand a similar naming convention system to make it easier to understand what the fuck commands do.

  • Why is this a screenshot? Couldn’t you have just copied the text?

    • Ironic isn't it?

    • Here's the text:

      Sure, I'll explain. I must preface this by saying that the following is my own personal theory which I formed over the years I've spent in the higher education system, both as a student, a graduate student and a TA, mostly has. on my experience with promoting FOSS and helping people around computers. I am also a local LUG member, so I have some additional source of observations. So while I cannot quote some Horton McPronton as a mastermind behind this theory, I'm quite convinced in the whole validity of my idea.

      So, first thing I noticed Is that MS products hide everything from the entl user in the most bullshit way. MS doesn't want to tell the user anything of value that would help to understand and fix the issue right away, but at the same time they don't want to hide malfunctions completely. That's where one gets the error messages like "ERROR WTF23 in 0x0454234 by 0x13245, please contact your local clergy". What they do is mystification of PC use. All that stuff does for an average user is forcing them think that the computer is some magic, antl there's snowball's chance in hell an average Joe like them would be able to figure that out.

      Second thing I noticed that the ubiquity of GUI further obscures the processes going on in the computer. While in UNIX and older OSes one could convey their desires in text (and receive a meaningful answer), Microsoft forces some world of Comic Books unto a user, without telling them what's going on. The result is further mystification of the whole experience. People no longer even try to understand what they are actually doing, they cannot figure out the underlying logic and just memorize where and what to click, and in which sequence. Every small change in the environment can ruin that whole scheme, which makes such people pretty much useless with varying tasks and whenever a degree of autonomy is expected from the PC user.

      Third thing I noticed is that "The MS ecosystem" discourages seeking and trying out something new. People get stuck in their established patterns of behavior and have a tremendous inertia against any changes. I struggle to find another sphere where user knowledge would be so limited. Cars? Everyone can name a dozen manufacturers, many models. Food? Same. Electronics? Obviously. But with MS, it's like there is nothing beyond MS Office (and its proprietary formats), Outlook, Explorer (well, this is changing now, but more like to "Google Chrome" and not to a variety of equal options), and other stuff. This is not surprising, obviously, since for any average Joe making something to work in this ecosystem is more like a magic trick, and they hold the results dear. But this also spreads out to other spheres. For example, I've seen people who cannot fathom there's statistical software beyond SPSS, because SPSS was "handed down" from generation to generation, along with other PC wizardry. The vendor lock-in in all the major corporations doesn't help that either. So MS promotes the mode of thinking as ridiculous as "There is no car but Ford, and no model but Taurus" would be.

      Fourth thing I noticed is that people don't want to study the underlying principles, at all, even when they need it / would benefit from it. Since the whole thing has been streamlined for them in a series of magical mumbo-jumbo, and any attempt to figure things out Of any, of course) endtd with some fucked-up shit like registry editing or scrapping together a bunch of unrelated files to replace the existing ones, or downloading something cryptic and running it without any clue of what it does, they see the whole thing as a heavy, useless burden on them. They won't learn how to use Office products properly (first and foremost, how to use styles and stuff to get proper formatting), because they expect to be fucking with registry again or something. They don't want to try other statistical software because they fear they'll have to deal with some undocumented shit all over again. They won't move to open formats because they expect it to be a whole clusterfuck all over again, as when they changed from regular GUI to Ribbon or something. Programming, Fuck no, they've seen those "ERROR 233432235 IN MODULE fgdghdfkghdfkj, SHOOT YOURSELF AND REPORT TO THE AUTHORITIES" stuff all too often, and never had to interact with a computer in any way similar to programming on their own (like, say, bash users do).

      So in my opinion, MS "ecosystem" makes computer use something mystical/magical and locks people in that line of thinking. Afterwards, people are nigh impossible to retrain, and instead of versatile political scientists we churn out vendor-locked zombies who barely managd to figure out SPSS and Excel. I am pretty certain that if people were brought up in a different manner, say, including communicating with the computer in text orders (imagine me telling you all this in pictures!), seeing the underlying mechanisms in plain form, being exposed to competing options, etc —then they'd behave quite differently, even considering an average person isn't, frankly speaking, quite smart. It's more or less like a language: once you learned the sounds of your mother tongue, you'll face great difficulties in producing the sounds of other languages correctly (thats why Russians or Italians speak English with a notoriously funny accent, for example). Same here: once you learn that PC is magic which is beyond you, you'll unlikely be able to de-mystify it later on.

      • For those that don't know there's a few websites that can easily grab text from images for you. It can be a big time saver.

    • I don't understand anything that isn't presented in pictures. Also I cannot read.

  • This feels like a bit of a sideways take. I'll preface this with that I love Linux, and its been my preferred operating system for years.

    That being said, "helplessness" isn't Microsoft's fault. Most people do not want to know the ins-and-outs of how something works, and that's perfectly okay. I am a software developer, but despite the fact that I have an Android (Pixel) phone I generally do not care to root my phone, flash alternative ROMs, etc anymore. I use Linux on my PC, but I do not want to spend hours tinkering with my phone, only for it to most likely end up in a state that is less-than-par than what it came with. I am glad that Android is open enough (well, its not as cut-and-dry as that but its more open than iOS) for the people who do want to tinker around with it to be able to do so, but its not for me. If I'm out and trying to request an Uber, I don't want my phone to crash every time I open the app just because the ROM I'm using has a bug.

    By the same token, there are times where I don't really want to mess around with going through a million settings on my PC when I just need it to allow me to do some work. That is a trade-off that you tend to make with Linux (though its certainly gotten a lot better over the years), and I can't fault people for not wanting to go through that. Sometimes, I wish I hadn't made that trade-off and had just stayed blind to the love/hate relationship I've come to form around Linux.

    I do not want to tinker around with my keyboard, I just want it to allow me to type. I don't want to tinker around with my headphones, I just want to listen to music. I use my refrigerator every day, and while I have some rudimentary understanding of how it works, I really rather not tinker around with it - and if it stops working, you're not likely to find me trying to fix it myself (short of say, the light bulb going out).

    A coworker of mine convinced another coworker to wipe their system and install Fedora, and use the Looking Glass + VFIO passthrough trick to have a Windows VM within Linux like he does. He spent both of his days off trying to get it to work (and facing weird issues that even I couldn't explain and find a solution for), and at the end of today he decided to reinstall Windows so that tomorrow he can have something reliable to use for work. This is exactly why I usually don't push people to use Linux. If they want to know more about it, sure I'm happy to show them the ropes - but selling it as a perfect solution is a bad idea and only makes Linux look bad.

    If Microsoft didn't make an operating system that was simple enough for users who just want things to work, yet powerful enough for those who want to do more with it (such as making games, or using CAD software for engineering) then someone else would. I definitely get frustrated with Windows, but at the end of the day, it is what most of the world uses for a reason (just like Linux is used for most web servers around the world for a reason) - its the right tool for their job, whatever that job might be. Sure, the vague error codes that you get from Windows is frustrating at times, but Windows isn't open source and that is not likely to change. How is the old XP error code format of STOP CODE 0X003ABF VIOLATION OCCURRED AT KERNEL.DLL (along with the rest of the useless stack trace) going to help you anymore than the shorter ones that are generally found on Windows nowadays? You can't exactly go submit a pull request to fix the issue. In terms of the ability to search for the error, I've very rarely ever seen a Windows error code that didn't have a million and one causes (and ^2 the amount of potential "solutions" for the supposed cause). It's certainly not going someone whose just trying to do their homework for school, or edit their resume for job applications.

    The same thing applies to the whole iOS vs Android debate. The same coworker who sold Linux to my other coworker uses an iPhone (actually, they both do as far as I'm aware), because its been reliable for him. He doesn't need to have the source code to iOS in order for it to do what he needs it to do. Quite frankly, the whole "sheeple" thing that you tend to hear people say, and this "Windows users are zombies" take being portrayed in this comment is incredibly childish. If you're not sharing the computer, the phone, etc and someone else owns it - why does it matter what they use?

    I suppose you could argue that the majority of people these days don't want to troubleshoot anything, but can you really blame them? Imagine yourself before anything that you learnt about Linux, Windows, and computers in general - with the way things are built (think laptops and phones, with how their components tend to be soldered in) doing anything yourself to repair stuff is very difficult, and has a high chance of leaving you with a brick (which isn't a Microsoft invention). How many people have you seen try to fix a software related issue on their PC or phone, and ended up making the issue worse (which can be done just as easily, if not easier, on Linux)? Those stories are why a lot of people do not want to try to fix something and reach out to support, take it in for repair, replace it, etc.

    • I'm mostly only replying to one part of your message, the reason everyone uses it is not that it's more simple. For 99% of people the only thing they need is the web browser and maybe possibly office depending on what they do for work. At which point the experience between Windows and Linux is like 99% the same

      Windows also constantly has issues and headaches as you alluded to with your error codes. People are just used to how to Google and try and sit there and deal with it for a couple hours.

      Windows is the default, because it's the default. Because it's what your computer comes with, because it's what everyone grew up using. It's just tyranny of the default and nothing more. I got tired of dealing with Windows issues for my family as the resident Tech person so I gave them an ultimatum they can either let me give them Linux or they can find someone else to call when something goes wrong. Some of them took me up on my Linux offer, and I have happily not had to touch their computers in I think about 6 years now. They quietly do updates on their own on a schedule send me a push notification if it fails for some reason which so far none of them have and those people only ever used to the web browser and office anyway and for their needs LibreOffice was perfectly functional they don't do anything fancy they don't do a ton of macros they just type basic text with maybe some bullet point formatting

      • Chromebooks/ChromeOS have been very helpful in that regard. Grandparents that don't do anything beyond a web browser? I replaced the struggling windows partition with a CloudReady install. Zero complaints. Google account syncing also takes care of backups, so no worries on that either.

        Now I am worried about Chromiun's near monopoly and how Firefox barely manages to make a dent in browser surveys, but I am not going to preach about web browsers and listen to their complaints every time a website coded by an unpaid intern refuses to do something properly on this 'Mozarella Foxfire' thing. I can afford to do that in my own time. They shouldn't have to.

      • That's fair, but at the same time as you mentioned most people use Windows because their computer comes with it. Now, while generally just browsing the internet and doing office work is simple even on Linux - what happens when they do run into a problem (say my coworker, who ran into graphical glitches with Fedora when not using safe graphics mode)? How likely are they going to have someone around them who uses Linux to help them troubleshoot the issue? When they try to work on a document that they've gotten from work, or school, then submit it only to find out that Libreoffice mangled the formatting causing it to render completely incorrect to everyone else whose using Windows at their workplace/school. How many of those folks are going to have an IT team at said place whose able to help them correct the issue?

        You and I would be around to help with that (if its possible - using Libreoffice again as an example, there are some cases where MS Office just does not agree with the way LO saves documents), but given that Linux users are many order of magnitudes less than Windows users - this is just not likely to be the case for the average population.

        I get that this is definitely a "Chicken & Egg" problem of course, but the reality is that this is the current situation, and short of Microsoft royally pissing off not only users but PC manufactures, this isn't likely to change...

      • Please use periods...

  • I haven't read all the comments yet so forgive me if I'm repeating this.

    This is not specific to Windows or Microsoft. There's been a general dumbing down and more hand holding going on for decades now.

    People don't need to think for themselves more and more. A huge amount of technology and information dessert is allowing people to become increasingly stupid.

    Driving for example, many would assume that technology like lane assist is there to keep people safe from mistakes. Which it is, certainly. But only because people are becoming lazier drivers.

    It's not so much a chicken or egg issue as a horrible feedback loop of stupidity or downward spiral into dumbness.

    I honestly worry for the human race with how increasingly lazy and idiotic we are collectively becoming.

    At this rate, we don't have to worry about robots, aliens or AI obliterating us, we'll be too dense to recognise it and welcome our extinction with open arms and apathy.

    • A lot of people in Linux subs seem to be ready and willing to unload their "everything is dumbed down" opinion, with all the ferver of a solider heading out to war. I'm a long time computer user, programmer and hacker, so I understand these points of view, but they come across as very gate-keepy around the idea of using a computer at all. Like... I think it's obscene that so many people would think you need to learn how to use the command-line in order to use a computer.

      You guys have it wrong, I love smart GUIs that mean I don't have to spend my life writing complex command line statements, why are there so many people trying to hold back the wonder and marvel of computers from people who haven't spent their entire lives dedicated to learning about the computer? I mean seriously, I don't expect any of my friends or family to be as experienced at these things as I am, and that's okay. I want the computer to be an easy thing to use. Hell, I want the computer to be easy to use so that I can apply my skills to building things on the computer and have people pay money for them, I think that's a fairly reasonable trade.

    • Death rate per 100,000,000 miles has been dropping a lot over time.

      In 1923, when it first started being tracked, it was standing at 21.65. 1970, it was 4.88. 1990, 2.21. In 2021, it was 1.5.

      It spiked recently, though, a tiny bit around 2015-2016 but then greatly in 2021. In 2014, the rate was 1.17.

      I do agree that the self-driving features are kinda pointless, especially right now, though. GM has gotten especially bad with their marketing, showing ads with people intentionally taking their hands off the wheel and not paying attention to the road while the car's moving.

      • The death rate is dropping yes, because of things like seat belts, air bags and better structural safety features of cars. But if you look at the crash rate and rate of driver error, it's increased and is continuing to increase. Injury and crashes from driver distraction had a massive increase with the advent of smart phones.

  • I work with a lot of Windows admins who have to move over to Linux, and this post is extremely accurate. One additional thing I've noticed is that because Windows error messages are terrible the users have learned to simply ignore them as there's no useful information. Getting them to stop and read what's in front of them is one of the hardest things to do.

    • Getting them to stop and read what’s in front of them is one of the hardest things to do.

      Personal opinion, that's not because the errors aren't useful, it's because people refuse to fucking read signs. It's not about Windows/Linux, it's that most people can't be arsed to pay attention to much of anything.

      Source: Worked as a pool attendant with a gate. Gate had a sign with rules for the pool and instructions on how to open the gate latch. The number of people confused by the rules and the gate because they failed to look at the sign right in front of them was consistently higher than the number of people who stopped for two seconds to read the sign.

    • Having learned how to use computers via MS-DOS, then growing to mostly use Windows machines, and then moving to daily-drive Linux in the past handful of years, I think the problem is more about context. If I see an error message, it's not that I don't read them. ‌Rather, if I lack the context to understand what it is trying to tell me—and more importantly, what I‌ can do to resolve the problem I'm having, I'm out of luck and I'd have to ignore it.

      It was when I switched to using Linux that I've picked up the habit of searching the error message online, and then browsing the various pages (mostly Stackoverflow, sometimes Arch Linux wiki pages) which might or might not lead me to the context behind the error message. If I get lucky, I could find a clue to resolving my problem on top of understanding what the error message is about. Other times, I end up being even more confused and give up.

      And then there's the monstrosity that is the logs. I'm pretty much illiterate when it comes to them, and reading them might as well be reading arcane records of eldritch daemons keeping my machine working (in a way, they indeed are). Copy-pasting some snippets from them into an online search is a crapshoot. I may find something that fits my context, but a lot of times, it's for a different problem. It might not even be for my OS/distro/package/version.

  • While that may be true, I've found Microsoft's Troubleshooter almost seem like magic in finding and fixing some issues, where as with arch (or any other distro) I would have to hunt everywhere to fix some issue that happened randomly or because some dependency of some dependency of some new package I installed broke something.

    • I've had exactly the opposite experience. I don't use Windows often, but the times that I have, Microsoft's troubleshooter has always been zero help. It's always the most basic shit that a Tier 1 tech support guy will run you through on every phone call. It's like "Have you tried turning it off and then turning it on again?" Yes, yes, and I tried that, too! Oh, what a surprise, it's ran out of ideas, and I have to go on the Web and search for help, just like I would with an issue on Linux.

      • It’s like “Have you tried turning it off and then turning it on again?” Yes, yes, and I tried that, too!

        And the reason why this is a universal T1 tech support tactic (to the point of being a meme) is because there are plenty of times that this does do the trick. Definitely not all the time, but as someone who worked in internet tech support at a call center the solution often was "Unplug the modem, unplug the router, give me a moment to do something on my side (which sometimes was nothing - but it made sure that they actually unplugged it), now plug both back in".

        And before someone jumps me for lying about the "do something on my side" part, when you can clearly see someone's port uptime is 200 days despite them claiming they reset their router minutes before calling in, you tend to learn very quickly that people lie (or are wrong/misinformed) whether that's intentional, or because they thought they unplugged their router but instead unplugged their PC/monitor/etc - the end result was the same. We had customers on all sorts of different infrastructure, some of them I could do a port bounce from our end (and I did for those cases), but others the customer had to unplug it from their end.

        So even if the troubleshooter only fixes say, 25% of people's problems - that's still 25% of problems resolved right away, and without needing to go search online. I do not think I've run into a Linux distro that has any sort of built in troubleshooter that could at the very least help those 25% (or whatever the actual percentage is) cases.

    • I find Linux, especially Arch or Arch-based distros, easier to troubleshoot than Windows. The documentation is decent a majority of the time and the community seems more willing to tailor advice to your specific situation.

      By that I mean you can post a log and if someone recognizes it they seem more willing to help you out or at least send you in the right direction.

      When I have issues on Windows on the other hand a lot of the time I see the same generic advice over and over again and it usually ends with user being told to download software from their obscure site. Maybe that's just my poor utilization of search engines though.

    • Isn't that making the problem worse though? If you have a tool that resolves your problem for you, wouldn't that make you dependent on it, and thus, be even more helpless when moving to another ecosystem (like, yeah, Arch)?

      Arch is built for a particular kind of Linux user though, btw. It's probably the worst choice for a "not a computer person" move into, issues of dependency hell aside.

  • It's definitely not human nature and is, instead, an improbably well coordinated conspiracy by a gigantic corporation known for being full of internal conflict over a span of decades to engineer helplessness in users. Whereas we all know that users are normally such resilient, inquisitive souls, more than willing to engage with a piece of technology in order to understand it. Or they were, until Microsoft attacked. Alas, if only it were not for the great evil empire, all would be well. At least this very real conspiracy serves the additional purpose of flattering the community's vanities and affirming its values as both morally correct and intellectually superior. So we got that going for us, which is nice.

    • I do find the idea that "the GUI is a Microsoft conspiracy to use their market share to make people too dumb to use computers" instead of "the GUI is why they have their market share" kind of amusing, though.

      I absolutely see the value of explicitly dictating what you want with clear, precise text commands. I love using short simple scripts to get shit done for myself. But I have absolutely no interest in using the command line to navigate directories and files. It's perfectly fine that it's an option, but as the only option it's kind of shit.

      • Also, if we're gonna be talking about which CLI is easier to learn and use?

        I wonder if its Linux, which has different programs for each flavor (apt get vs pacman vs yum) and whose command-set is from the 1990s where you had to use as little code as possible because of space/cpu limitations so the names for what each command does are not very descriptive...

        Or is is Microsofts Powershell which has an extensive get-help command which provides a deep-dive on each and every command there is on top of all the commands being human readable in a verb-noun format that can be read by a layman and generally understood what the command is doing simply by its name. Oh and get-command so if you're not sure what command you need, you can search for it by keyword.

        Man pages can be pretty useless if you don't already know which command you need. In Linux you don't have as many options of learning what the command you need is, because they're not human readable. Instead you have to search online and hope someone can clue you in to the right command/set of commands.

        Linux is the better OS, but Microsoft made the right choice by making Powershell commands human readable and straight forward. If Linux was being started from scratch, this is something I would put in the pipeline: "Human readable commands in a verb-noun structure."

      • I prefer using the CLI for navigating file systems. I can pipe the output through other commands, search quickly, and move anywhere in the system with ease

  • If you don't want to read through all of this, here is a shortened version by chatgpt :

    The author presents a thought-provoking perspective on the impact of Microsoft's approach to computing. They suggest that Microsoft's products tend to obscure the inner workings of computers, contributing to a sense of mystification among users. Error messages that lack meaningful explanations and a heavy reliance on graphical user interfaces are highlighted as factors that deter users from understanding the technology they use.

    Moreover, the author argues that the Microsoft ecosystem discourages users from exploring alternatives and gaining a deeper understanding of computer systems. Vendor lock-in and a reluctance to delve into the underlying principles of software and technology are seen as barriers to users becoming more versatile and informed computer users.

    In essence, the author contends that Microsoft's ecosystem fosters a perception of computer use as something magical and impenetrable, making it difficult to retrain users once they have adopted this mindset. They suggest that an alternative approach, emphasizing text-based communication with computers and exposing users to different options, could lead to a more informed and adaptable user base.

    This viewpoint encourages us to consider the impact of user interfaces and software ecosystems on users' perceptions and abilities when it comes to technology. It underscores the importance of promoting digital literacy and encouraging users to explore and understand the technology they rely on.

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