Europe preps huge defense package in boost to Ukraine: "Never been seen"

yeah, that would have been an even better idea, 3 years ago.
Day 1 of the invasion, cut literally all economic ties with Russia and put 3% GDP into defense across the EU.

Where was this three years ago? Europe wants to make sure every last Ukrainian man is thrown into the meat grinder.
- Our leaders have been too complacent, for what I think is a simple reason: It's easier to depend on the Americans so your own national budget doesn't take a hit and cause you to lose the next election.
  Now that we've seen that the US is an unreliable ally and (rightfully) wants to reduce its' own military aid spending, they're hopefully seeing the bigger picture.
  
  But why did Europe wait for America to bail before suddenly pulling a trillion dollars out of their pocket?
  If Ukraine was supposed to win Europe should have thought about ponying up that cash a bit sooner.
- Better late than never.
- Why did they wait? Because if all this support started on day 1, a lot of folks would have feared nuclear retaliation and there is no way back from that.
  The Russo-Ukrainian conflict is too complex to use your oversimplified perspective, and thus only useful to throw oil on the fire. There are serious nuclear threats, Putin’s unpredictable actions, it also involves many (very different) countries standing up against tyranny. The bureaucracy may be slow in its responses, but efforts are being made to ensure careful moves that prevent escalation. Labeling European leadership as bloodthirsty is misleading in my eyes; they are actively working to protect democracy.
  Why would you think European leadership aiming for more dead Ukrainians? Why would they still provide financial and humanitarian support? And increase it now?
  
  So you are saying Europe does not want Ukraine to win because then Russia uses Nukes...

We (EU) should have unleashed our defense industry 3 years ago. Hopefully, the US MIC received the message, their profits are going to sink unless the orange turd starts to provide military aid to fucking Russia.
- I am an American and I am willing to endure the pain caused by the rest of the world telling our orange turd to fuck off. Please do it. Please make it so incredibly painful that even those who love Orange Turd will start to smell it and reject it. Make it sooo sooo bitter!
  
  MAGA cultists will gladly eat up all the shit that’s served to them, and even gleefully ask for more of they think there’s even a passing chance that a Dem/liberal/leftie would smell their breath.
  The US willing descent towards Gilead has been horrific to watch, as an outsider.
  The sooner the rest of the civilised world decouples from that insanity, and hopefully bands together around the common ideals that the US used to (at least pretend to) represent - the better.
  
  Trump could literally start world war 3 and his supporters would still back him.
- Hey I'm American and I'm all for EU paying for the war in perpetuity and for our mic sinking all the way to the bottom on Mariana trench.
  
  What's mic?
- Well, there are some in the EU who are hoping to bargain with Trump so that we reduce our import taxes on American cars (US has them at 2.5%, we have them at 10%, so we've been doing exactly what Trump is trying to do, at a smaller scale), buy more weaponry from them and as the US ramps up its' gas production, we could buy more of that from them as well - if Trump in return does not put 25% tariffs on everything made in the EU.
  It's not a bad deal for either side, really, though it sorta defers the whole making more of our own weaponry part of trying to be more independent of the US. And I'm sure both the automakers and MIC would do what's in their power to persuade Trump to take it.
  
  Please factor in Putin. The EU is under a two prong attack from the USA and Russia and any reasonable or fair deals will be ignored. When you examine the US auto manufacturers, they have nothing to offer for the majority of consumers in the EU. We could apply 0% tariffs to US manufactured automobiles and they would end up sitting at the dealerships.
- In a way, it's what I was hoping would happen. The US backs off its own defense spending and stops acting like the world police force. The flip side of that is that Europe and the rest of the world picks up their own defense.
  What I had in mind as an end game is that the US would be at a table of equals. That's not at all what this is.
  
  What the realistically means is Europe will be starting it's nuclear weapon programs in earnest again. France and the UK have a handful, but it'll need a lot more to be an actual deterrent for Russia.
  
  Not saying it's not the right thing to do, but I hope America is ready for the loss of jobs that will come with scaling back the military. There will be a lot of associated small businesses and stuff you wouldn't have thought of that will also get defunded outside of direct military spending.
- considering the meeting that just took place in Saudi Arabia, I fear that is entirely possible.

This is the best thing about a Donald Trump presidency: sometimes good things happen by accident, and it's definitely a good thing for the EU to be depending less on the US.
- Same thing that happened with Canada. This man is so stupid it's coming full circle
  
  The funny thing is he whines about the trade deficit being $200B (which is a lie, because that's all he ever does) he may actually cause the trade deficit to actually be $200B.
  
  Happening but not happened quite yet. It’s still a minefield at the grocery store to shop for things not partially or fully prepared in the US. For seemingly ubiquitous things like cream cheese or pickles, from recent outings.

A brilliant move from Europe.

This is great but IMHO they really need to start building industrial capacity to produce millitary stuff as well. Money's no use when nobody wants to sell you weapons for it...
- Errrm, 5 of the worlds largest exporters are European
  
  Zut alors! Vastly outclassed by France, Scheiße!
  
  Oh, thanks for the heads up. That's good to know.

Thank you, Europe. God, let this be what Ukraine needs.
- This is also what Europe needs. Europe needs to seriously increase their domestic military manufacturing capabilities now that the US has proven they can't be trusted.
  If this money is invested in European military industries then they will need to considerably ramp up their production and overall it will strengthen European military power.
- They also need to cut the US out of any involvement in Ukraine

Don't forget to save some for the war against America.
- The war against America will be fought by poor American SOB's like myself before it reaches our allies.
  We're all hoping it doesn't come to that, but the divisive nature of our current political climate is unprecedented... We're all a day away from never speaking to certain family members again. It's just fucking nuts what's going on.
  People like to compare us to Nazi Germany, but it's nothing like that. Well, except Elon Musk. He's larping as a Nazi pretty openly right now, compete with Seig Heils. That's part of their plan to divide and conquer. Only I really think it'll follow our old motto, and we will simply all fall.
  
  What the tech Bros think they're heading for is nazi Germany. But don't forget they're in bed with the fundamentalists. You're actually looking at a Christian version of modern day Iran. Once musk and trump have exerted control over the population, they'll be "taken care of" and you'll get Vance for the next 11 years.
- It's the same investment fund. I assume that's the main reason for it's existence. Donald Trump and his MAGA baffoons are driving America in the ground faster than a plane during his administration. They need to be ready and they will fight unlike many cowards here.
  Numbers are growing in the U.S. but the time needed is also fighting the time that his administration devours media sources and telecommunication systems. Surveillance today is near insurmountable, but not yet
- Eh, America would ally itself with Russia anyways. Might as well invest into weakening the Eastern front first.
- Would have needed to start saving 50 years ago for that
  
  Perhaps the best time was back then. The next best time is now.
  
  French nuclear program: Fin!

Finally Ukraine is getting the help they need! Kick out Russia once and for all!
- Most of that money will likely go into expanding the defense industrial base and infrastructure. That includes not just buildings but training and hiring engineers and technicians.
  Lots of essential things in NATO are run by USA. Airlift capability is a big example. Luckily Ukraine has some serious capability there and cooperation has been done for a long time already. Building an independent intelligence infrastructure, satellites, and so on is a major task as well. Command organization is built around the US and will need to be built as well. Training of Air Force pilots also happens in the US for most European militaries. That means building air bases, infrastructure, hiring and training additional staff, etc. Nuclear weapons and delivery systems are another big concern.
  Europe has capabilities in all of this already, but it’s dwarfed by the US.
  Europe will likely have to spend double the rumored 700 billion to achieve something credible.
  
  Europe will likely have to spend double the rumored 700 billion to achieve something credible.
  So, what you're saying is that this spending package for defense is NonCredible?
- Finally Ukraine is getting the help they need!
  This might actually be the silver lining of it all.
  There has been an uncomfortable disparity between words of support and actual support. I heard many times that the ultimate goal the Pentagon wants to achieve is Russia not losing the war. Out of (comprehensible) fear a falling dictator might throw a last Tantrum235. Germany has also been firmly sitting on the brakes from the start. Remember 5000 helmets? And the (for some Ukrainians literally) gut-tearing discussions at each and every step, wether this is Putins red line, or that is Putins red line, wether this or that might escalate the war, all while Putin escalates the war.
  Now that the DSA have kissed themselves goodbye, Europe seems to finally realize what's at stake and oops they can do something about it. So there is hope Germany might get it's fat ass off the track. There is even talk about Germany taking a leadership role, though given the context, this must be dark humour. Gotta love that.
  Fingers crossed Europe unites in action and Ukraine is getting the help they need! Doing otherwise would send a strong signal to the new Imperialists in east and west that you can pick and chew at our borders, be it the Baltics or Greenland.
  
  Germany has also been firmly sitting on the brakes from the start. Remember 5000 helmets?
  Remember how it took like two days to overturn 70 years of precedence of "no weapons delivery into crisis regions"? Without us actually having a debate about it because there was an overwhelming majority for it from the get-go? Those 5000 helmets were part of the initial "find what we have and what we can legally send" order, which then arrived in Ukraine in the same shipment as the first actual weapons.
  The, say, tank situation is ambiguous, I don't have enough insider information to actually make a judgement. Either Germany said "only if the US says it's ok" or Germany said "let's put some political pressure on the US to get into the game, to commit". Ultimately, Germany shipped everything but Taurus. I think we should -- and much of the parliament agrees. Majority, actually, but not the governing majority so as is tradition parties voted against their own actual position. I guess that it's being held back so something is being held back so that certain peacenik SPD parliamentarians can be assuaged.
  So there is hope Germany might get it’s fat ass off the track.
  FDP is probably out and with that ideological (instead of merely populist) sentiment against spending money, Black-Green looks quite likely and in case anyone is confused yes the Greens are hawkish AF about this one. The discussions around Yugoslavia turned them from singing kumba ya into liberal interventionists and I haven't heard "olive-green" used as an insult in quite a while.
  
  Germany is the 2nd / 3rd largest contributor with about €15 billion. And you bring up 5000 helmets? That’s just pathetic and false.
  Also, make sure to use per capita numbers.

I think we should give a nuke to Ukraine. One would be enough to stop all this BS.
- Funny enough, when the USSR split up, Ukraine did have nukes, briefly. It was, you guessed it, the US that convinced them to give all their warheads to Russia.
  Source: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-trilateral-process-the-united-states-ukraine-russia-and-nuclear-weapons/
  
  Yeah, I heard that. But I think that Ukraine couldn't actually use the nukes so they were of limited use, like maybe they could have been repurposed or something. But yeah no doubt about it, Ukraine got screwed and now they're finishing the job. I hope they sell their resources to anyone else, China or North Korea before they let Russia or the US have them.
- Them not being involved in the peace talks underlines again how indispensable nuclear weapons are, sadly.
  The DSA playing hopscotch with whose ally they are underlines how worthless a shared nuclear umbrella can be.
  So a grim lesson for Ukraine, Europe, Taiwan and pretty much any country with any border tensions, or anything another aspiring imperialist might find desireable: Get nukes, own them yourselfes, or risk being thrown aside or being steamrolled. Trump undoing decades of existential anti-proliferation work in mere days.
- I keep hoping the Palestinians will get their hands on one for the same reason.
  
  so what would you think hamas do with nukes?
  
  The limited military capabilities of Palestinians has restrained Israel’s actions.
  How should Palestinians use that nuke?
- One won’t be enough. If they use it, Russia will at least hit the whole frontline with tactical nukes, maybe wipe out a city or two. That means Ukraine can’t use it, making it as valuable as a paperweight. For credible nuclear deterrence a country needs a few dozen nuclear weapons and more than one delivery method.
  
  Noone who has nukes can use them, but that's not the point. Just the threat is enough. One nuke with enough juice to get it to Moscow would be enough. I'm pretty sure if any country ever used a nuke, the whole world would explode.

It's a bit premature to announce this, but yes VonderLeyen has announced the preparation of a defense package of approx. 700 B via this legal fiscal venue. Together with the EU Competitiveness Compass plan at around a minimum of 750 B, they will likely be aimed to reinforce each other. In addition, other parallel plans are being prepared, pending current developments.
added: Context: EU defense is now at 326 B in 2024 (consilium EU). Though Europe also includes UK and other countries ofcourse.
This newly announced extra package is like a minimum extra budget.

Don't sigh before any papers are signed, but...
...while they may get stuck for a while passing a measure of this volume (or someone will need to lure Orban out of the room while others push buttons) - the volume is doable.
For comparison, the NextGenerationEU budget allocation (spent in a dozen ways) to help countries recover from COVID damage) was worth 2 trillion euros, and it was possible to pass.
The actual part? Probably multipronged:
supercharging EU and Ukrainian arms industries, especially ones that can be expanded fast (drones)
reducing formalities that need to be followed
buying the weapons some members have in reserve for a Russian attack (because some do)
buying the weapons Turkey and Greece have in reserve for each other
subsequently, raking the global market (including the US) for weapons that come loose for money
allowing Ukraine to pay really attractive salaries to its own soldiers and foreign soldiers
P.S. And jokingly - buying all the optical fiber available in South-East Asia.
- subsequently, raking the global market (including the US) for weapons that come loose for money
  Ultimately they will have to come round to producing their own, no?
- buying the weapons Turkey and Greece have in reserve for each other
  Ok, this one amuses me

About time they pull their weight

I know a way to increase the support even more than that:
Donate to https://u24.gov.ua/

Realistically, the only actual solution to this problem in any long term would probably involve stationing nukes, which nobody really wants to do. A combination of not wanting to risk pissing off putin, because everyone thinks that he's an insane trump-level idiot that will engage in mutual self-destruction over ukraine, combined with the post-soviet destruction and hollowing out of the ukranian economy into private enterprise, an economy which wasn't exactly doing hot before. So it's pretty clear that most everyone doesn't actually give a fuck about ukraine or the ukranian people at all. Everyone's just gonna use this as an opportunity, as with every conflict, to pawn off old military hardware, bury the receiving country in a huge amount of IMF bank loan debt, and scale up their own domestic military production while paying off a bunch of private contractors which are, hmm, suspiciously close to the levers of power inside the real government. Weird how that happens. What a noble sacrifice.
I dunno, the wheels turn.

Package.... and will EU also print new soldiers on its factories? Even properly and sufficiently training the existing ones takes years.

Insane
- If Ukraine fails, then the rest of the world will go to war.
  It's waaayyyy cheaper to throw $ and equipment at Ukraine than have WW3
  
  If Ukraine fails, then the rest of the world will go to war.
  What a batshit crazy claim.
  If anything, using ukraine as a proxy, giving them missiles that can reach deep into Russia, etc is what has gotten us close to WW3.

I don't get why the EU still wants to maintain its confrontation mode? Wouldn't it be better to just find peaceful solutions for the future?
- I think the reason is: because the EU has seen nothing good coming recently from Trump's or Putin's mouth.
  Putin's previous record is that he poisons opposition figures, attacks countries and attempts to conquer them. He has not resigned from the goal of controlling Ukraine yet, so there is no reason to come out of war mode - and indeed, perhaps going deeper into war mode will make him willing to let go.
  Trump's previous record is that he makes a mess where he goes, has previously obstructed military assistance to Ukraine multiple times. On his best days, he behaves like a protection racket.
  Those two are currently negotiating "behind the shed" somewhere.
  What EU is doing, is putting together a contingency plan for a possible outcome: Trump helping reach an agreement which Ukraine cannot accept, and US support to Ukraine ceasing to flow.
  In that case, the EU must move enough military resources to replace the US. The package volume (0.7 US defense budgets, in addition to EU countries' individual defense budgets) indicates that it's a "replace the US" package.
  
  I'm not completely sure if the post you replied to was sincere based on its tone but appreciate your well reasoned comprehensive analysis.
  
  Honestly 0.7 US defence budgets is quite an impressive sum of money for the EU to be able to cough up overnight.
  
  LOL nonsense
- That's not really how global politics and diplomacy works.
  If the only "peaceful solution" Russia will accept is the surrender of Ukraine, what do you expect them to do?
  Having a well provisioned and trained standing army also encourages your opponents to seek peaceful solutions.
  
  The Russians couldn't care less that Europe has an army.
  Or even their US masters.
  There is a problem when they expand NATO with possibly nukes in Ukraine, too close to defend from.
  That is a red line, and was known since forever.
  And when you lose a war you negotiate surrender.
  They are always reasonable and will be OK with a safety buffer. NATO can do what they want with the rest.
- If Russia overruns Ukraine, the rest of them are next. Putin is an imperialist.
- Sure, it would be better with a peaceful solution: Russia should stop attacking and pay for the damage they've already done.
  The solution proposed by Putin and Trump is not peaceful.
- Are you a Russian bot
  
  No. Are u an EU bot?
- Would it be better? Yes! Is it possible? That would depend on Russia and they don't seem very eager.
  As for Ukraine coinciding chunks of their country, it was tried before (Crimia) and the result was Russia getting overconfident and trying to grab the whole country. Sadly sometimes use of force is the only way. Hopefully, this increase will lead to forcing Russian to negotiate for peace.
- There's no negotiation with Putin, please please stop this stupid pacifist line of thinking
- Because of this:
  Every single European country with a shared border with Russia has mandatory military service (that red exception on the map is Latvia, which also reinstated it in 2024). This is how much Russia is trusted.

Imagine spending 700 billions in useful things and not to fight a proxy war against russia.
- Yeah, imagine ignoring the aggressor next to you in order to by nice things.
  
  Whoever spend billions in war instead useful things is the aggressor
  
  It's not just nice things, but useful ones.
  There are people living in poverty that could be brought out of it with this money. Instead it's being used to kill each other.
- Could do that if tanks weren't rolling across the border, and missiles weren't raining down. Could avoid the whole thing by just kneeling and kissing the ring, capitulating to economic and cultural domination by a foreign mafia. Could really simplify life by abandoning European identity, self-respect and agency to become a pawn to the East instead of looking to the West for help.
  Too bad they are top strong a people for that.
  
  Hah, strong reply. 👍
  
  Could avoid the whole thing by just kneeling and kissing the ring, capitulating to economic and cultural domination by a foreign mafia.
  You are already doing that, bend the knee and kiss orange man and his oligarch boots.
- If they don't spend 700 billion on this, the "proxy" war with Russia (that is currently "cheap" for most of Europe to support), will cost them far, far, far, far more than 700 billion in a few short years/months.
  This is why you support proxy wars when they're in your interest.
  It's like outsourcing a future war to a country that won't touch your shores.
  Ukraine is getting fucked up by Russia right now. Mines, bombs, guns, battle, towns destroyed, infrastructure disruptions, etc.
  You want that contained in Ukraine as much as possible. The second they lose, it will spill out into all of Europe and will be far more expensive and too late to contain.
  
  And this is if we only strictly try and think about this fiscally. The human, social and moral side only expands from this, and are much more important, too.
- The sentiment is understandable and in a naive sense I agree, but the paradox of tolerance applies here, and it’s not so straight forward.
  Sometimes you just have to punch a nazi in order to stop them getting too comfortable and getting bold. Well, right now the equivalent of the nazis here are, and have been, emboldened for over a decade, and it’s unfortunately going to take a lot of punches to stop them swallowing everyone whole and imposing even worse environments and even more poverty for all.
  
  Here's the paradox of tolerance to you: we are ruled by maniacs corrupted by money and power who seek war and chaos as a leverage to get more wealth and fuel their insanity. We either stop them and oppose their military spending or we are all ending up in a meat grinder fighting one against the other.
- Says the pro russian
- We don't have to imagine
- Imagine not being a complete moron. I know that's impossible for you.

- ironic that you can be so anti-capitalist that you turn fascist like this.
  
  That dude posts so much so frequently, it's extremely fishy
  
  Intellectual honesty tends not to be a primary motivator itself.
- Yeah! Down with democracy! Bring back feudalism!
  
  Pretty sure feudal peasants were living happier than us now.
- Anyone downvoting should pack his bags and join the front because ukraine is running out of men
  
  I think democracy is a good thing, therefore I should join the Ukrainian military?
  
  Actually, no. Ukraine has quite a couple of brigades ready to go, waiting for materiel to use. Because unlike Russia, Ukraine isn't hurling donkeys and men with nothing but Kalashnikovs at the front.
  
  Personally I’d go if they just let me. I’m a reserve sergeant with strong will to actually do something, knowing full well I will perish there, and cry for mommy in a ditch, or something else entirely, as of yet unimaginable to me.
  Defense is something I accept and will always help with if I just can, if the cause is right. Other kinds of war or violence? I’d rather go to jail than participate. In defense of gender minorities, people with mental health issues struggling as it is, when we now have great support networks and financial help guaranteeing housing, food, electricity, everything necessary, I would face the horrifying prospect of unimaginable pain and fear, desperation, so that those that do not wish to, or can’t, do not have to.
  I have strength and vitality some do not have. And if the only thing standing between the peaceful, at least good enough life they (we!) now have, is the sacrifice of those just selfless enough to face horrors, I’d feel bad letting them do it without me, if and when I am capable to help.
  But this is only as long as the thing we’d defend is worth defending. Our current state definitely is. I’m openly pan-sexual enby, and nobody looks at me twice. I get to work, study, participate in society just like most everyone do. If that is in danger, I won’t sit down and wait for them to come for me and my kin.
  But I also don’t think anyone else should be forced to do that, unless they really do want to and understand the horrors of what it will be.
  I have the benefit of military training and familiarity with guns and warfare in general (in theoretical level, though, which is still better than nothing), so I wouldn’t be able to forgive myself if I didn’t put those to use in defense of my fellow minorities often persecuted elsewhere.
  
  Oh, the irony. You’re here, cheerleading for conscription from the comfort of your keyboard, while accusing others of armchair opinions. If Ukraine’s running out of men, maybe it’s time to question why this proxy war keeps demanding human sacrifices instead of solutions.
  Blind allegiance to this endless cycle of funding and fighting doesn’t make you noble—it makes you complicit. Pack your own bags if you’re so invested, but don’t expect others to march for a game they didn’t sign up to play.

lol whyyy Ukraine's cooked why are we shoving more public funds up the US' ass? Genuinely what are they hoping to accomplish?
- found another fascist.
  
  The reality that Ukraine is cooked for the next several decades by any sensible metric is independent of any ideology, it's just fact. It's over, it's done, Russia will get what they want and the US will get a neocolony, aka what they want.
  The only thing I don't get is why we still finance lockheed martin? jk I think I have an idea for why UVDL is still hellbent on getting as much as possible out of public coffers and into the hands of foreign private investors.
- Kyiv in three days!
- Pretty sure US weapons sales in EU countriea are coming to a predictable end...
  
  all the more baffling why we would buy more so close to the end, no?
- They've actually been pretty much tied with the Russians for the last year, I'd say. Russia's bigger, but also taking way more losses, so in the end the front line has stayed put.