Data is Beautiful @mander.xyz fxomt @lemm.ee 7 days ago

A representation of words derived from Latin

Cross posted from: Latin@lemm.ee

lingua latina pater linguarum dimidum est 😎

I hope it's okay for me to crosspost here.

Latin Language @lemm.ee fxomt @lemm.ee 7 days ago

A representation of words derived from Latin

45 comments

I would love etymological trees linked in this way
- Same,I love these types of statistics and trees :^)
  
  I'll try to upload more linguistics based content on Lemmy, including stuff like this.
That diagram 📏 !
I wonder if something like the semantic tokenization method would benefit from using etymological data like this, particularly for a multilingual llm.
- i know that my NN internally uses semantic tokenization method.
  
  i literally often seek the word roots when talking to somebody. it helps me focus.
- Interesting paper, thanks for sharing
Is PIE something like proto-indo-eurasian, or just something to do with pies?
- I haven't heard of people screaming about pies in someone's face, so I think it's safe to assume PIE means proto-indo-european :)
- and while I'm at it, how do I pronounce *h3?
  
  There's a bunch of guesses on how *h₁ *h₂ and *h₃ were pronounced in this Wikipedia page. They're usually defined by their effect in child languages though, so it's possible that some of those were actually multiple sounds.
  
  For *h₃ you'll often see values like [ɣʷ] or [ʁʷ]; a labialised consonant (to explain why it often turns nearby vowels into [o] ) and voiced (as there are some claims that it voices nearby consonants, mostly Cowgill's Law)
  
  My personal guess for *h₃ is completely heterodox, [ɸ]~[β]. I think that it's directly associated with *b being so uncommon in PIE.
  
  They're called Laryngeals, and no one really knows how to pronounce them, from what I can tell.
  
  Edit, there are two theories on how to pronounce them:
  
  Rasmussen chose a consonantal realization for *h₃ as a voiced labialized velar fricative [ɣʷ], with a syllabic allophone [ɵ], i.e. a close-mid central rounded vowel. Kümmel instead suggests [ʁ].
- it's not eurasian because the family is centered around europe and only extends to about india, chinese/japanese/korean are a separate tree.
Wow... where does ruler 📏 fit in there?
- Between old french and english, middle english; the word /reuler/ split, and became two words: ruler 🫅, and ruler 📏. Same word, same origin, different meaning.
Cool diagram! Would be better if it pointed out that the Portuguese word "real" only refers to currency in Brazil, not Portugal. The origin appears correct and the word is used in Portugal either to say something is "regal" or "real".
- It also referred to currency in Portugal when we had a monarchy, precisely because of the meaning of "regal".
  
  Thanks for pointing that out, I had totally forgotten about that, was only thinking of the Escudo.
Brought to you in indecipherable colors for color-blind people
- Are you color blind? If so I'll try to edit them, then upload a separate version that's easier to read.
  
  rule of thumb: start with patterns rather than colours, and just add a colour to each pattern instead. That makes it readable basically no matter what.
  
  I am, and the color choices are very hard to make out. But no need to make this one in different colora. But maybe keep it in mind for future projects ;)
Cross posted from: Latin@lemm.ee

...communitatem de linguā latinā habemus? Nesciebam! /me subscribit

Feel free to cross-post this stuff in !linguistics@mander.xyz by the way, it's right into the comm's alley.
- Welcome! I didn't realize there were this many Latin hobbyists on Lemmy, either :)
  
  I'll check out !linguistics@mander.xyz too, thanks!
  
  Welcome! I didn’t realize there were this many Latin hobbyists on Lemmy, either :)
  
  I've studied it in my grad. Nowadays I'm a bit rusted in the language, so doing weird shit like translating Pulp Fiction excerpts into it, just to avoid the brain rot. (Or to deepen it.)
This is very cool.

Makes me think about how "ject" lives on in so many words.
How come everybody dropped the h sound?
- Those are placeholders. "We don't know what this sound is supposed to be, so we plop h+number there and call it a day." You'll see some reconstructions using *ə₁ *ə₂ *ə₃ instead, same deal.
  
  That said, the Anatolian languages (Hittite, Luwian etc. - the whole branch is extinct) preserved a few of those laryngeals; compare for example Latin ⟨ouis⟩ and Hittite ⟨𒇻𒅖⟩ ḫāwis, from PIE *h₂ówis (sheep). Since Anatolian split way before the other languages, this makes me wonder if they weren't vocalised already in Late Proto-Indo-European.
- Those aren't H's, they're Laryngeals (They use the same letter, but there is a small number next to it; that makes it a different consonant). As for why they were dropped or how they sound, nobody knows.
  
  There is a Wikipedia page on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laryngeal_theory?wprov=sfla1
  
  TIL, thank you!
  
  Follow up question, since it's not reconstructable, and nobody knows what it sounds like, how did we figure out they were there, and which PIE words had them and which ones didn't?
No ruler, as in the measuring device?
- What's the original word you asked about? I can't find it. But yes, ruler as in leader or king
  
  Ruler, like the 12 inch one. The item you use to also draw straight lines. Not the leader/king meaning of the word.
My mind is really reading "tritium" instead of something like "re" with that h3reg in the middle.

Also interesting to note: the word "rial" in arabic, also used to denote currency, descends from the portuguese/spanish real
- Yup, we call it riyals, or some people romanize it as rijals. I didn't know it stems from portugal/spain, must have been related to al-andalus.
  
  It's from a later period, as al-andalus was a name mostly used during the islamic conquest in the 8th century, right? The first real coins are from 14th century Spain, while the peninsula was still divided between the northern christians and southern muslims

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