I have actually had this argument used against me.
Wouldn't an American flag make more sense than just the DNC ticket?
Or has the RNC come out against the atrocities in Gaza while I was sleeping?
Who do you think the "someone else" is here? Are you so desperate to scream "But Trump!" at any specific criticism of Harris that you have discarded basic reading comprehension?
You're doing the thing the meme is making fun of
Even if you're voting Harris et al., don't you think they should be called out for supporting genocide? Have you even tried to convince Biden or Harris or your reps in Congress to stop supporting genocide?
Moreover, once they know that they can get enough votes and win while supporting genocide, then they'll know they can do anything and have enough votes to win. While all paths lead to increasingly fascistic governance in the US, the path you're advocating is the most accelerationist scenario.
Even if you're voting Harris et al., don't you think they should be called out for supporting genocide?
Yes. Full stop.
Have you even tried to convince Biden or Harris or your reps in Congress to stop supporting genocide?
Yes, and not just on the Internet. I am fortunate enough to have some influence, but to be fair Gaza is one of the subjects and not the only subject matter I push for.
Moreover, once they know that they can get enough votes and win while supporting genocide, then they'll know they can do anything and have enough votes to win. While all paths lead to increasingly fascistic governance in the US, the path you're advocating is the most accelerationist scenario.
This is a tough one, not gonna lie. First, if it was anyone other than Trump and the guarantee of a fascist dictatorship under his rule (and it would be "rule") running, I would not vote for Harris. Second, and much more important, is that nowadays I have far less influence than in the past. Ten to fourteen years ago I would have the opportunity to sit and talk with politicians in Texas and I even used to have the occasional chat with Obama whenever he visited Austin. Now I have none of that AND amongst my colleagues in the tech sector I seem to be the only one who cares about Gaza and Palestinians in any measurable form. The ugly truth is that I do not see a good way to enact pressure at the moment. What I do know is that under a Trump administration the complete obliteration of the Palestinian people is guaranteed. Under Harris I could at least make some calls without getting jailed or falling out of a window.
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
Except the bottom track loops around to run over everyone else when the Supreme Court decides it wants to hurt more people.
Let's say the Supreme Court decides to end gay marriage at a federal level and send it back to the states. Harris won't do shit to help people in red states, she'll just tell them to vote for Democrats in 2026/2028 but otherwise ignore them.
Controlled opposition parties like the US democrats love to dangle these carrots during election seasons. Roe v Wade in red states was unrolled under Biden, while he held up his hands and said there was nothing he could do about it. But as soon as election season rolls around, they're suddenly champions of women's rights. If they were to actually do something about it, they'd no longer be able to campaign on it.
Why do you support a system that repeatedly makes you choose between mega hitler and giga hitler? Surely you recognize that such a system is evil and participation is an endorsement of it.
That's a very difficult concept for them to understand. The mental gymnastics I've seen them use to excuse or defend genocide has been wild.
By just saying, "I don't want to endorse a genocide." sends them into a frothing rage, with arguments immediately fired against the right. They see it as 'us vs. them', but fail to see that people don't want to endorse a genocide no matter the color of the party.
Ukraine? Lol good fuck those Nazis.
The rest? The Dems had 4 years to codify any sort of federal law protecting those groups while states rolled those protections back, and didn't. So yes by you pretending that voting blue is some sort of moral high ground despite their constant failings in actually protecting queer and trans and black and women's rights you are choosing to support more death of those people. That's you. You're doing that. Congrats I guess?
Also the Dems literally caused the genocide in Palestine by pledging, and supplying, unlimited support to Israel.
Basically this is you
Never think that geocentrists were stupid. They were wrong, certainly, but they were not stupid: while it doesn't take much intellect to initially conclude that Earth is the center of the solar system, it does take a very great amount of intellect to rationalize away the mountain of evidence to the contrary.
This is not a comment about people who voted or are planning on voting for Kamala Harris — this is an entirely unrelated observation about a completely different topic.
Stupid tankies. Don't you see the trolley problem clearly proves that genocide is fine
I love the faith that the new Cheney DNC won't turn on any non-muslim or immigrants minority... I'm old enough to remember the '92 campaign's promises and then Don't Ask Don't Tell, Welfare "reform" and "The Death of Big Government." A rightwing DNC is a greater threat than the GOP because the MSNBC and NYT set will applaud them, and the 70% of the DNC base who are partisan sheep will move their own politics to justify the party's execution of "republican" policy
Trans people, LGBT people
Harris just said "I believe we should follow the law" when asked whether trans people should have access to gender-affirming care. This is leaving it to the states, which is essentially banning the existence of trans people in large segments of the country. She does not care about trans people or LGBT people as a whole.
Abortion rights
Roe was overturned under Biden, and Harris has not said she would stack the court or similar. She has said she would sign into law a bill passed by congress to restore reproductive freedom nationwide, but the dems almost certainly will not control the senate with a filibuster-proof majority, and even if they did they'd find some designated bad-guy who would turn coat to stop it (see: Joe Lieberman, Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema). Harris will not do anything to protect abortion rights.
Ukraine
Which will lead to more Ukrainian deaths: the war coming to an end because US aid ceases, or a meatgrinder continuing for years which the Ukrainians have no chance of winning anyway? Which is more important: lines on a map, or actual human lives?
Black Lives Matter
Harris was a prosecutor. She's a fucking cop. She's VP of Joe "We have to fund the police!" Biden. She wants to build Trump's border wall. Harris does not care about black people.
Palestine
Harris fully supports the Israeli genocide of Palestinians. Her VP, Walz, has said that Israeli expansion (IE Greater Israel) is key to US interests. They may actually be to the right of Trump on this issue just because Trump doesn't have any actual political beliefs other than "make Trump richer", while Harris and the dems are rabid zionists.
Excellent writeup. If anyone wants sources for some of these, here they are: https://dessalines.github.io/essays/socialism_faq#kamala-harris
I like how the trolley meme is peak liberal morality test
I'm starting to think now the trolley problem should be reframed as a catch-22 / false choice / manufactured consent.
Who constructed this trolley? Why are there only two options shown? Do these options actually match reality? etc.
u think voting for california's ex head pig is gonna keep black people safe from pigs??? how does that work? how does continuing the "i think we can all agree what we need is to found the police" regime make black people safe from pigs?
Also how would republicans be worse than Palestinians than the continuation of a regime currently led by a self proclaimed non jewish zionists.
also also democrats could have and did nothing to protect womens bodily autonomy and they have done next to nothing for lgbtq people or any other oppressed peoples for that matter.
but non of that matters there is regime in power which is genocidal which has done everything in its power to support and aid a genocide, u can either support it or not, that is all.
This basically says that you don’t see Palestinians as people which I am not surprised by anymore.
That, and also they drew the picture in a way that makes genocide of palestinians inevitable. Genocide is not inevitable, no matter how much US democrats think it is, and tell everyone to get in line behind it.
Its so easy to construct trolley problems that have nothing to do with reality, and don't represent the options actually available, or even the problem / scenario correctly.
I'm starting to feel like this genocide straw man is truly their strongest argument. Like, is that going to make me forget the other option wants to turn the country into a dictatorship?
You seriously want to bring up genocide to play a "lesser of two evils" game, when one evil is Trump? GTFO
living the meme dude
Do us a favor and say this verbatim to every Arab and Muslim American you meet. They need to know what liberals and Democratic voters think of them. The issue is clearly not just Biden or Harris being anti-Arab and pro-genocide but an entire party and its base.
Not every muslim or arab thinks alike. Either way though, this is probably not a great subject for a first meeting 😄
I do recognize that the core issue lies deeper. It just doesn't feel realistic to solve the fundamental problems before the election though. So it's not unreasonable to reduce the problem to the vote for the time being IMHO.
Why just have genocide when you can have a facial theocracy and genocide? If this is your single issue then you are truly privileged. Peace in the Middle East or all these LGBTQ folks, immigrants, and woman can get fucked. Not to mention anyone living in a blue state who may experience a natural disaster or anyone against regulatory capture by the private sector.
They better solve a decades long conflict with a foreign leader who is closely aligned with the Republican Party or else! Give me a break
You live in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
The extermination of a people is vastly more important than which flavor of fascist is the nominal figurehead of the U$.
You support genocide. You are no different from the Nazis.
First of all, it should not require 1D chess logic for you to have a red line at genocide. That should be enough for you to take pause and be absolutely certain that you know what you are talking about. If you're dabbling in this, it should mean you just spent at least the last year reading extensively on genocide, history, Palestine, and political power and strategy. And yet you just use the usual , self-defeating, lesser evil talking point. That is how little concern you have for Palestinians facing genocide.
But let's say you weren't just pretending to care about strategy. Let's say you are you ten years from now feeling, correctly, like you did something very wrong and this has led you to be curious about how to build power, so you begin to critically engage with the propaganda you have been sold your entire life. Pretty shameful that you didn't so it when brown people faced genocide, but here we are.
Your logic is that you must always support your party candidate, who is allegedly some measurable amount better, even while doing a genocide, than the other with any chance of winning the election. You're just minimizing harm, right?
Well no. What you are doing is taking what little leverage you have in your vote and saying, "I will never stand for anything, I will vote for you no matter what horrible things you do". And your political class, the one in your faction, is glad for this. You have done what you were told, you have made yourself a suppirter that expects nothing, just a cog in their genocidal machine. Four years roll around and you are somehow surprised that your team has moved farther right, done the same kinds of things, or done them worse, or done more if the worst things. Maybe it turns on trans people, as it is doing in Texas by supporting a transphobic candidate. Or immigrants, which Dems already did. You wonder how we got here and then tell everyone "vote blue no matter who, the Republicans are worse!"
You are making several great points and I thank you for explaining them. I don't even want to argue against any of them.
I just feel like I've seen the USA murder muslims for a decade in the first degree, and now people are getting worked up over a second degree, and consider electing a con artist to prevent it.
I'd rather have a reasonable person in office, that might respond to the public opinion, than someone who is purely focused on their own gain.
The problem is that Trump would be worse. If Kamala wins, THEN you apply pressure. You don't help the guy who praises Hitler, and promises to punish his enemies "from within" the day he takes office. This also isn't the only issue by a landslide, considering Trump wants to dismantle NATO, and defund the support sent to Ukraine.
🤡
Funny you should say that, because I too would very much like to dismantle NATO.
- The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World
- CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance
- Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world”
- Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism
Extermination of a people group is ultimate. There is not a way for it to be worse.
You support genocide.
I voted for Biden in 2020, what pressure could I have applied to stop the genocide?
You don't seem to realize that the US/Biden/Democrats have lost the moral high ground a year ago. I honestly believe Biden is a worse criminal than Putin.
If Kamala wins, THEN you apply pressure.
How? This is not the kind of thing anyone that cares about pressure or leverage says. Electorally you have the most leverage, as an individual, before the election, not after it.
Do you ever question what you are told to do by the party?
You don't help the guy who praises Hitler,
Kamala Harris is supporting a genocide.
and promises to punish his enemies "from within" the day he takes office.
You mean with cops and feds? Maybe violence against and suppression of protesters? Maybe labelling Palestinian solidarity organizations as terrorists? Maybe signing an EO to allow "the military to use " lethal force" on citizens in the US.
Your "good cop" is already doing that. You just approve.
This also isn't the only issue by a landslide
What's the issue? Can you describe it?
considering Trump wants to dismantle NATO
That would be an unmitigated good for humanity. Sometimes Dem voters make great arguments for Trump. Good thing we have principles.
defund the support sent to Ukraine
The people of Ukraine suffer due to a decade-long US pressure campaign to use them to harass and bait Russia. After Russia invaded, the people of Ukraine are now used as inputs to a meat grinder because the US' goal remains to hurt Russia, not help Ukraine. The US escalated in the first place and then scuttled peace talks.
The best thing for the people of Ukraine would be to end the war diplomatically ASAP.
