I'd like to think they're all just Russian trolls but increasingly, I think some people are just selfish or dumb.

Sure, more Palestinians will die

Sure, Ukrainians will die

Sure, US minorities will die

Sure, the entire world will suffer from a fascist demagogue at the head of the most powerful country in the world

But have you considered that, for a few brief moments of time, we created a lot of value for the shareholders we got to feel smug over the SHITLIBS who wanted to prevent fascism?

I got into this argument the other day. People’s arrogance and lack of common sense was disappointing.

They are either Russian trolls or children who have a Disney level perspective on politics, I think. They don't want to recognize that they have very limited options or the harsh realities surrounding them.

Yeah, because that worked out so well when in 2016 when Trump got elected, the GOP got multiple Supreme Court picks, multiple federal judges were given life terms, and Roe vs Wade got struck down. Let's see how that plays out when Ukraine falls, war breaks out in Europe, America becomes a theocratic dictatorship, and what little progress we may have seen with the environment completely falls apart and the world goes full tilt towards becoming an uninhabitable hellscape. Whatever the protest was about will be utterly meaningless.

If you want to protest, you protest AFTER you get sympathetic ears into office, not after you get the opposition elected. Trump gets in, then suddenly he'll give you plenty to protest about, vs protesting when Harris is in office and she actually has a willingness to listen to protests and meet their demands.

It's almost like the current and immediate conflict between Israel and Palestinians isn't the singular thing that the world should have serious concern about, and that realistic solutions to longstanding international diplomacy issues are - wait for it - hard.

People refusing to vote for Harris becuase of a foreign conflict they understand nothing about is peak stupidty.

It really depends on which state you live in whether or not you have the luxury of a protest vote. If you live in NY state that has a 20% lead for Harris, sure, some people can vote Jill Stein or something. But if you live in a state that actually might be close or not an obvious blowout, you can't vote that way. You actually have to be tactical with your vote, not idealistic or symbolic.

oh i'm sure the comments on this post will be real civil

A large portion of the people you're referring to are Arab Americans. In fact, Trump is now leading with them. I also think Trump would be worse for Palestinians than Harris, but I doubt the best way to convince Arab Americans of that is with condescending memes about how they don't care about the Middle East.

Everyone who doesn't support a corporatist duopoly is lazy, dumb, and/or working for the geopolitical rival to my dominant hegemonic country!

One can only wonder why you have not convinced more people with your message and Harris is now losing.

Usually they live in blue states that will partially insulate them from the consequences. Or they’re young and don’t understand knock on effects yet.

From now on, whenever I encounter someone who says they're not voting/voting 3rd party, I'm gunna ask if they've tried to reach out to their representatives trying to get them to raise some support for what they believe in. Or if they've tried nothing and are now just giving up. These people are literally supposed to work for us.

OF COURSE Trump supporters are selfish and dumb. That’s what makes them great dupes for evil forces. Trump himself knew this, as he’s famously said.

Someone else summed it up almost a century ago: “It works the same in every country.”

Let me take a stab at this. As a non American non voter who is interested in the outcome of the election.

There are 3 parties to this discussion: the Harris campaign (Democrats in general), the Gaza issue voter, and the lesser evil voters.

The Gaza issue voters clearly believe a genocide is occuring, sometimes affecting them personally, and funded by their tax dollars. They would like some concessions from the Dems (the only likely party to take any action) and their only bargaining chip is their vote. It is clear to me that, if a large number of Americans felt strongly and this way, action would happen.

The Harris campaign has been non responsive on this issue, trying to tread the thin line, where they not only look powerless politically, but also unwilling to take a moral stand for what is right.

The lesser evil voters are absolutely correct that she is still better than Trump, and in more ways than just Middle east.

What I think all 3 parties need to do:

The lesser evil camp, instead of mocking the hold outs, needs to pressure the Harris campaign to make a change. Maybe even join them! (See the last point)

The Harris campaign, needs to think long and hard about what they stand for, and the implications of the Republican-lite gamble paying off. There needs to be some fear of losing voters who they cannot take for granted as they shift to the right.

Finally the Gaza voters. Its fine to play the game of chicken, keep screaming as loud as you can demanding change, but ultimately (secretly) get to the ballot and vote D.

Pretty sure people are gonna die regardless of which genocidal wacko is elected.

Such people who buy into this logic aren't all that bright. Accelerationists without a comprehension of entropy or a capacity of how this might impact a whole range of other vitally-important issues like women's rights or Ukrainian civilians among dozens over others.

Alas, we know a lot of this is fueled by foreign propaganda.

Social media psyops don't require all of the people to be puppets. You just spread some ideas around that get picked up by normal people, make some opinions get seen by the right people, etc. They are mostly not starting fires, but are simply adding a tiny bit of fuel here and there, which gets amplified by the internet.

All of the excessive online moderation actually works against it. When I started using the internet, there was a golden rule: "don't believe anything on the internet". Nowadays people think platforms will only show them the truth, but in reality you're being put into a filterbubble, an echo chamber of an opinion that keeps fueling itself.

Is it not more like "ALL OF YOU WILL DIE" ?

I mean, Israel seems determined on their genocide.....

Dem centrists are too lazy to try to influence their politicians to do the right thing. And they pretend the politician is powerless to change their stand. They can change their stand. You can apply pressure during an election. if you'd just try. But you all pretend you are powerless, and then call everyone trying to pressure harris shitty names.

I would say they feel there is no personal/social benefit from electing one over the other. The reality is the tarriffs and mass deportations are the stupidest fucking I've ever heard and likely will piss away more money and people than COVID did.

Why not both OP?

The concept of electing Trump to help Palestinians is basically the stupidest shit I’ve ever heard, but I guess some people might legitimately believe it.

Selfish and dumb people may as well just be (involuntary) Russian puppets.

Jezz this instance really have a censorship issue. You guys are tankies.

"How dare you protest!!!"

Literally all Kamala has to do is announce a plan to stop war crimes and gain these votes back. The fact she won't is on her, not on the people concerned over Gaza.

By the way, I don't support Trump, I don't think you should vote for Trump, but if you want to protest by supporting third parties until Kamala changes her policy you have my full support

Both. Both are true.

I voted party for socialism and liberation and you can too!

They’re running Claudia de la Cruz on a platform of Palestinian liberation and an end to arms shipments to israel.

They’re eligible for enough electoral votes to win in an unprecedented landslide!

Even if you can’t protest, door knock, phone bank, picket or boycott, you can still use your vote to tell the two major parties that you won’t accept their genocide.

Half the Lemmy population is born in Russia. Other half born in the Soviet Union.

No one on lemmy has ever made this argument and as usual this community of redditors in disguise believes in the hopium of a candidate more conservative than Obama will change her mind about genocide.

And that people are just gonna vote for her with that reasoning.

If you þink ð solution to democratic softness on Israeli atrocities is to let Trump back into power after he handed ðem East Jerusalem, West Bank, and Golan Heights on a silver platter, you are eiðer a covert zionist agent or an unwitting zionist agent.

Eiðer way, my Amrikani-Falasteeni derriere will consider you as much of an ally as truck flags McGee barely holding back from calling me a towel head and sand n****r mostly because we some ð fuck how have been blessed to avoid peak emboldenment, despite your best efforts trying to "make ð establishment learn ðeir lesson."

You can tell ðese kids are white because ðey actually believe pulling a karen on ð two party system will get ðem a sit down meeting with democracy's manager for a socialism coupon or some shit.

To keep voting blue/red no matter is how you create the very situation we are in. Punishing politicians is how you get them to work for you and not for themselves and pacs.

The amount of people who rationalize arming a genocide is “ok” if a black lady does it, is more than alarming to me.

I’m not saying “don’t vote for her”, but if liberals wouldn’t try to sweep it under the carpet, and shit post memes to bully progressives/leftists - they might have better odds.

"some hundreds of thousands of you may will die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make" is exactly what vote blue no matter who people are saying to arab americans who are uncomitted voters

How about actually listen to Palestinian voices instead of your misplaced savior rubbish? They are the ones asking that we refuse to vote for Kamala.

democrats : This is the most important election in our lifetime, we need you to vote to save democracy.

Third party voters : Yeah and under a Democracy I intend To freely use my vote according to my beliefs and interests.

democrats: Nooooooy, not like that 🤬

Im a non-US non-Voter. But I feel the whole "every vote not for harris is a vote for trump" is quite frankly bullshit. People raising concern for palestinian are not trolling, or russian bots or selfish. You just disagree with them and are resorting to name calling.

Here are some facts:

A) early polls show that in swing states, votes for jill stein hurt trump more than harris.

B) if a third party gets more than 5%, this unlocks federal funding for the next election.

C) voting third party shows the actual voter sentiment of tiredness with the two main candidates. It incentivises other politicians to either form more parties or for the main parties to have candidates that represent the population better.

If everyone just votes for trump or harris, in 4 years you guys will be standing in the same place as now or 2016. It was the exact same rhetoric in 2016 "lesser of two evils". Obviously something needs to be changed.

Yeah but those people helping Trump get elected are the Dems pretending genocide is fine. Say what you want about lesser evil but it really isn't the smartest political move to alienate voters who think genocide is bad. The messaging of "if you draw the line at genocide then you're the problem" and blaming voters for not vibing with that instead of, for example, dropping support for Israel and stopping the genocide is just straight up terrible politics. You should be mad at Dems for royally fucking the campaign up instead at people for not buying into this bullshit. Did you also support Biden remaining as candidate after the debate, despite atrocious polling data?

I do get that there is foreign interference going on, but seriously if you were attempting to sway anyone towards the Dems by shaming people for being against genocide - the obviously weakest point of Dems campaign - then in my eyes you're most likely the Russian bot trying to remind people that Dems are terrible. And if you aren't and you actually tried to convice anyone with this argument, then shut the fuck up until the elections are over, if anything you're costing Kamala votes.

Classic tactic of accusing your opponent of what you're doing.

I think you are selfish and dumb you genocide apologist scum. Fuck you. Fuck trump. Fuck biden. Fuck america.

"Jokes are okay, but don’t intentionally harass or disturb any member of our community."

"Wow people who disagree with us really are fucking dumb ahah"

Trump is Netanyahu's favorite candidate. The disrespect to Biden/Blinken ceasefire/restraint timidness is done to make Dems look bad. Blinken is a worthless POS who may not have any serious intent to stop genocide. Both Harris and Bernie, by repeating Israel's right to defend itself, are essentially ok with all Israeli evil, and the unlimited unconditional free weapon support, despite some occasional reserved statements to the contrary. Trump will just use unconditional support for a war on Iran as a means to ethnically cleanse Muslims from the USA.

The "everyone is a Russian Troll" is worse than dead internet theory. Trump is more progressive on not diminishing Russia through Ukraine proxy war. Whether or not he is paid by Russia, ordinary Americans who think diminishing Russia enriches them are victims of disinformation and emotional media manipulation that makes them think support for diminishing Russia/Putin means they care more about Russian prosperity than Russian leadership, and keeping Ukraine nazified on a path to NATO is somehow "liberal". US empire has never before reached this level of evil and recklessness. The popular normalization of this evil is a certain contributor to US decline and imminent collapse.

Actual Russian operatives from foreign ministry would see Iran as an ally, though the massive forced Russian military production increase from Ukraine proxy war on it, means massive opportunity to assist Iran in a conflict if Ukraine gets resolved. It also means ultra high oil prices/profits. A war on Iran would still be US empire emboldened. All elected political leaders in November will take loyalty oaths to Israel, and there is no indication that Harris would stop such a war, or not involve US troops. It is just more certain that Trump would.

https://lemmy.ml/post/21672888

3rd party voting hurts trump more than kamala.

3rd party voting is a good thing

It's not really a factor for my voting preference, as Israel is a proxy-nation of the US. If Kamala wins, Gazans die. If Trump wins, MORE Gazans die. We're not getting the heat for it, Israel is. So meh. I don't value human life much anyways. We're all still violent apes who do what we want, and when there are rules against it, we break them and use violence anyhow. At this point, I'm kind of numb to it. I'll protect those close to me, everyone not close to me idgaf. If it starts affecting me or my own, I'll start caring.

Until then, shoot me some more memes.