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Lemmy has some very aggressive communists.
I’ve been lucky enough to dodge the crazy right wingers though.
i wonder if maybe not having right wingers has something to do with having aggressive communists to run hem off.No. It must be lib magic
I’m fine with the lesser of two evils.
Thats a real self own. Do you think you voted away the "greater evil", or libs did anything to make them go away?
You are the lesser evil. And we're not fine with you.
Ok, buddy
I'm not your buddy lib. Why would i be your buddy when you think I'm comparable to a fascist?
I'm supposed to trip over myself to be civil to you when you call us the "lesser evil" to fascism?
Lol
Damn, we found their trigger word! Lesser evil! LESSER EVIL!
It's funny how hypocritical you are right now, too. You wanna label "liberals" as fascist, but get all pissy when the same happens to you with the same amount of credibility.
What's funny is that you lot all seem to fail to realize that "Liberalism" is not inherently left or right wing, unless you are a reductionist who doesn't believe that social liberalism exists and only believe Classic Liberalism exists. You all talk big about your political knowledge and how nuanced your beliefs are, and then you fall victim to the classic conservative notion of reductionism. Seeing "lib" used as an insult around here is just as hilariously pathetic as all the "snowflake" shit
Damn, we found their trigger word! Lesser evil! LESSER EVIL!
It's funny how hypocritical you are right now, too. You wanna label "liberals" as fascist, but get all pissy when the same happens to you with the same amount of credibility.
What's funny is that you lot all seem to fail to realize that "Liberalism" is not inherently left or right wing, unless you are a reductionist who doesn't believe that social liberalism exists and only believe Classic Liberalism exists. You all talk big about your political knowledge and how nuanced your beliefs are, and then you fall victim to the classic conservative notion of reductionism. Seeing "lib" used as an insult around here is just as hilariously pathetic as all the "snowflake" shit
Damn, we found their trigger word! Lesser evil! LESSER EVIL!
It's funny how hypocritical you are right now, too. You wanna label "liberals" as fascist, but get all pissy when the same happens to you with the same amount of credibility.
What's funny is that you lot all seem to fail to realize that "Liberalism" is not inherently left or right wing, unless you are a reductionist who doesn't believe that social liberalism exists and only believe Classic Liberalism exists. You all talk big about your political knowledge and how nuanced your beliefs are, and then you fall victim to the classic conservative notion of reductionism. Seeing "lib" used as an insult around here is just as hilariously pathetic as all the "snowflake" shit
Damn, we found their trigger word! Lesser evil! LESSER EVIL!
It's funny how hypocritical you are right now, too. You wanna label "liberals" as fascist, but get all pissy when the same happens to you with the same amount of credibility.
What's funny is that you lot all seem to fail to realize that "Liberalism" is not inherently left or right wing, unless you are a reductionist who doesn't believe that social liberalism exists and only believe Classic Liberalism exists. You all talk big about your political knowledge and how nuanced your beliefs are, and then you fall victim to the classic conservative notion of reductionism. Seeing "lib" used as an insult around here is just as hilariously pathetic as all the "snowflake" shit
trigger word
It's funny how
What's funny is
Terminal reddit brained response
I never called a lib a fascist. Liberalism is inherently right wing because its the ideology of capitalism. I understand that there's distinctions between different types of liberals, and between them and fascists. I did call libs like you and the other poster, to use their phrase "the lesser evil" because you support capital but arent fascists.
If you don't like being lumped in with other right wing tendencies then stop supporting capital. Its not our fault that reality is marxist
I enjoyed the whiplash from screaming a taunt at you like the most obnoxious kid on the playground into that detached passive aggressive mode.
And then they broke out the logic pedant terms
Why are you lot so obsessed with reddit? Can't you leave that place behind? I mean, haven't you ever thought that people on reddit talk the way they do because its how most people online in general talk? Reddit didn't invent linguistic trope. I digress.
And what makes you think I am a libertarian? What makes you think I support capitalism? Just because I don't directly support your exact ideology doesn't mean you get to straw man the criticism away. You and your ilk with that and ad hominem, or some other fallacy. Never able to directly hold an argument on it's own merits. It's fuckin hilarious lmao
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Lmao, you are one to talk about being pretentious. Hypocrisy is definitely your watchword.
Also, dont know why my comment said libertarian, definitely meant to write liberal and my shit must have autocorrected. I definitely have a political ideology, and its democratic socialism, which staunchly criticizes Marxist-leninist ideology. Like I said before, I dont agree with your philosophy but that doesnt make me a liberal or right-wing or anything. We agree on a lot of fundamental ideals, but theres a lot of disconnect, too.
I know you folk always have a "you're with me or you're against me" attitude, which makes sense considering your authoritarian nature. I think its just fun how easy it is to set you off. I mean, I can leave one half-baked comment and you guys swarm like vultures! I can see how the gish gallop is so successful.
Stop digressing.
blown the fuck out, nerd
social liberalism
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Who the fuck is anita sarkeesian?
And what makes you think I'm a liberal?
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This is their fourth attempt at this comment
i know! I can't help but wonder what were in the discarded drafts
You know what I'll take it
Which is ironic considering that you guys are the ones always claiming that people can't handle having their views challenged.
Nah I'm pretty sure it's the same reason why Hannah Montana and Miley Cyrus are never seen in a room together
Yes I go into a phone booth as my normal commie antifa self and come out as Chudly Dugsfermpt local pool supply company owner and lover of Milton Friedman
meanwhile in the real world it's liberals and fascists who are joined at the hip https://orgrad.wordpress.com/articles/liberalism-the-two-faced-tyranny-of-wealth/
Wait are you trying to say we're the same people?
Or that the reason is so simple why we're not in the same rooms together that a child should be able to understand it?
I think the implication is we're addicted to a magical potion that transforms us into an evil alter ego who causes mischief in town
And then we get to hang out with Abbott and Costello
Sounds rad
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And then we get to hang out with Abbott and Costello
It's just a single monk:
Yeah I might be pushing for universal liberation during the day but at night I put on my maga hat and try to create fun new unjust hierarchies /s
yeah sure the people who want everyone fed and housed for free and who require pronouns are right wing.
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Almost like the very aggressive communists have a nose for right wing nut jobs and relentlessly hound them until they log out
I think that’s awful an immature behavior. When you fight idiocy with aggression (at least on social media) you just get idiots who think they must be right and start truth social or something
How do you deal with fascists? Facts and logic in the free marketplace of ideas(tm)?
I usually just ignore them.
I find that a lot of crazy right wingers do it to “own the libs” or get a rise out of their supposed enemies. It’s all just a sports game to people like that.
If you ignore them they get bored and stop being so staunch in their awful beliefs. When you fight with them it makes them feel like they’re right. You end up forcing them to rationalize every shitty position.
Almost nobody posts on the internet trying to challenge and reconsider their beliefs, so it’s not like you’re going to change their mind anyway.
I mean that’s what I think, at least
I usually just ignore them.
Does ignoring the fascists make them go away? Please.
If you ignore them they get bored and stop being so staunch in their awful beliefs. When you fight with them it makes them feel like they’re right. You end up forcing them to rationalize every shitty position.
So now you're accusing us of making fascists more fascist, as an excuse for your ridiculous theory of just ignoring fascism.
like you’re going to change their mind anyway.
Its not even about changing their minds. Its about forcing them out of shared spaces. Fascists should driven out, shamed, harassed, and redacted.
What you think is lib bullshit that gets your spaces infiltrated and taken over by fascists and reactionaries.
You want to ignore them fine, but don't condescend to people who confront them and drive them out of shared spaces as if you have a more "mature" solution. Your solution is literally "if i close my eyes they go away" baby logic
And here we see an aggressive communist in the wild. You have a good day, dude
You said a bunch a bullshit and got called on it. Agressive much tankie.
Fuck all the way off dude
Awe well I still hope you have a good day.
Prime example of libs believing in nothing but self assured smugness and civility. And in the wild no less
lol
We actually study history and read shit. Like I just finished reading Long Walk to Freedom & Armed and Dangerous, both are a fairly good firsthand on how "fascists" respond to non-violence and only start to have reservations when the oppressed shoot back.
Oh and
"The real fascists are the fascists who won't let me fascist 😭"
Cool story bro
Why is aggressive a bad thing?
It’s just polarizing. You’re just making people more staunch in their beliefs or just annoying people who would rather not deal with aggression (like myself)
If your goal is to drive people away and make a space where everyone just agrees with you all the time then it’s effective.
Polarization is clarifying. It drives away fascists which protects their targets and makes spaces safe for them. It also exposes people who would more readily share spaces with fascists and just ignore them than with the people who oppose them.
If it drives away people like you who ignore fascism, yet want to argue that opposing it is immature, then that's a bonus
Fascism has only ever been defeated through violence, not through "changing people's minds"
This is really the point to hammer home. Back in my lib days, I started hanging out with a dude who was much cooler than me, and his anarchist friends. We once got to talking about how our town used to have a pretty substantial neo-nazi presence, in the 80s-90s. I said something to the effect of "good thing people are smarter today!" and he and his friends got really animated and saying how "they didn't just go away one day, we fucking chased them out of here!"
While at first I just didn't like getting yelled at, it eventually dawned upon me that that he was right. I, and everyone I had ever talked to about it (other libs), just assumed that that whole unpleasant nazi thing just went away, through the magic of progress, presumably. It was just a thing that was there once, now wasn't. People like him and his friends (and I've since met many more) were the actual people who went out and risked life and limb to oppose the nazis everywhere the went, to vandalize their posters and stickers the moment they went up, to show up in numbers every time there was a demonstration. To do everything to make life as shitty as possible for these pieces of shit until it just wasn't really viable to be a nazi in our town anymore.
That whole realization did a lot to cure me of my "we can't sink to their level"/freezepeach brainworms.
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When you fight with them it makes them feel like they’re right. You end up forcing them to rationalize every shitty position.
Literal fascist talking point. "Look what you made me do"
I mean that’s what I think, at least
Investigate before you start thinking next time. Are trans children out there looking for fights just by existing or is your belief that fascists need to be provoked first founded on nothing but bullshit?
Thanks for ignoring the people who want us dead, very mature and polite of you!!!!
Yknow I’m talking about on social media platforms, right?
Frothing at the mouth raging at someone on a social media platform doesn’t do anything but cause more radicalization, so I just ignore people instead. I don’t spend most of my life fighting with people on the internet over politics.
Frothing at the mouth raging at someone on a social media platform doesn’t do anything but cause more radicalization
Are you deadass actually suggesting that people are transphobic ableist nazis because communists go after nazis online?
or are you saying that it radicalizes more people into avid antifacsist communists, which is an unambiguously good thing (unless youre on team nazi)
This is a real question, please answer.
I don’t spend most of my life fighting with people on the internet over politics.
You won't push back on fascists, but you can't shut up when pushing back against people who believe in pushing back fascism.
cause more radicalization
Its been pointed out multiple times now that this is literally a fascist talking point. Pushing back against fascism is not what makes people fascist. In fact its how we protect the targets of fascism on shared spaces online or off.
As has also been pointed out to you some people just existing is seen as an incitement by fascists. What are they supposed to do? They can't just ignore threats and the invalidation of their humanity. That you can shut your eyes to that says a lot about you.
They can do whatever they want.
I don’t care what other people do, I just ignore people I don’t think are worth failing with.
And yeah pass judgement if you want, but how I choose to deal with people on the internet is up to me.
And yeah pass judgement if you want, but how I choose to deal with people on the internet is up to me.
Yeah, and you're a bad person for choosing to act this way. Points for owning it though tbh
And yet here you are failing.
Great to hear that the targets of fascism "can do whatever they want." They don't have a choice in the matter of being a target, unlike you obviously.
I've already told you this but our goal isn't to change fascists minds. Its to drive them away, to shame them. To not allow them to spew their bullshit or attack their targets without resistance.
Pushing fascists out of our spaces is the only way people whose existence is targeted by fascism can actually "do whatever they want."
I have no goal here. Just sharing my opinions. Not failing to do anything.
Yeah being aggressive is good for driving people away. And yknow given that your goal is actually to drive people away I was wrong to say it’s immature.
I just don’t like aggression. I don’t go on the internet looking for fights.
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Sure, lib
Are you fucking kidding me m8?
This shit is ridiculous, look at what you posted!!
How's that marketplace of ideas plan working?
It's like studying an ecosystem; once you see the fascists, the aggression of the communists suddenly makes sense
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I call those crazy left wingers.
Hey I'm not an aggressive communist. I like to think I'm a pretty laid back communist.
I mean unless we're talking about the rich. But like my whole political ideology kinda hinges on aggression in that direction so....
Hey yknow that’s a good point.
I mean unless we’re talking about the rich. But like my whole political ideology kinda hinges on aggression in that direction so…
I think the common Communist definition of "Rich" and Marx's might differ vastly, and I think the vagueness of the word is half the reason. I see too many Communists calling for the death to (for example) computer programmers because many of them are able to save up a couple million by retirement. I know a few that ended up with $10M cash because they worked for a profit-share startup. While I'm not an expert on Marx, I'm pretty sure that's not what he meant when he referred to the bourgeoisie.
Hell, I don't think he ever predicted the massive number of "petite bourgeoisie" that we have now in much of the west, people who put in 60-80 hours simply to live the same life the rest of us live but not have to obediently answer a boss. I'd do that if I could. You'd think Communists could make allies of both the successful proles (like programmers) and the petite bourgeoisie.
If you draw "rich" somewhere close to the $100M mark or higher and include some asterisks on the ones you think should be murdered in the streets (assuming that's what you meant by "unless we're talking about the rich"), maybe most people will agree you're not an aggressive communist (but still be terrified of you like we are of anyone who wants to kill someone for who they are). If you're going to look at a grandma who has $2M in savings after her husband dies, the world's got problems with you.
I mean, if you want to peacefully dismantle people like Musk, then I'm 100% on board with you. If you would support someone taking sudden and violent force to him, as much as I think he's a douche, that's why we use the word "aggressive".
And yet nobody minds the aggression of capitalism and the right on anybody other than well off cishet white men 🤔
Across the country LGBTQIA people are being actively censured, stripped of their right to exist, and outright physically assaulted. There's no concerted trend trend to bitch about THAT violence, but mention a guillotine and half the fediverse comes out to cry about how we're all just meanie tankies out to murder anybody who makes more than minimum wage.
And yet nobody minds the aggression of capitalism and the right on anybody other than well off cishet white men 🤔
Really? NOBODY minds that? I can't be pro-LGBTQIA without believing that any possible system except strict communism will work? You're talking black & white thinking, the same as the anti-LGBTQ extremists. There are miles of Left, even far left, that aren't Authoritarian Communism (that isn't authoritarianism but does involve Dictatorship of the Proletariat and the exertion of authority. I was fucking THERE, marching there, when they legalized gay marriage in my state, one of the first in my country. I had a good friend be in the first 50 gay marriages in my state. Does it not count if I'm not a Tankie? All my friends who were out there risking their safety against the Catholic alt-right violence in my state didn't count?
Look, you touched a nerve here, and I'm trying to take a breath. Maybe I misread you. Are you genuinely trying to say that you can't oppose far-right violence without being a Communist? Or (perhaps just as bad) are you trying to say that if I'm not ok with violence against queer and transgender individuals that I need to be ok with violence against all liberals?
And I'd like to quantify that I got hit this morning with a dozen replies putting me in the "liberal them" pile, basically agreeing that if I don't strongly support violence against the non-Communist supermajority, I'm a liberal and have no right to call myself a leftist. I hate the tearing down of the pacifist Left I keep seeing.
you woke tankies are all the same the mind virus is infecting every aspect of our life and culture we must use violence to fight it before we wake one day in the pod eating bugs with no gender and no country
Interesting. I'm not a Tankie a tall. That's kinda the point.
with no gender and no country
Wow. How many people would you murder to preserve your precious gender identity?
how many children do you woke tankies want to kill by forcing you're way of life?
I have no problem with an individual acquiring wealth on the fruit of their own individual labor. The computer programmer getting a buy out from a venture capitalist has successfully gamed the system without being personally responsible for harm to others. At least directly. Usually.
My problem is with people who exploit the labor of others for profit. No billionaire earns that last zero without causing harm. They perpetuate violence for profit, knowingly. That violence can take a lot of forms, from unsafe working conditions all the way down to actual fucking slavery.
The thing is, you can't participate in capitalism without either extreme ignorance or at least a little complacency towards that violence. And fine, there's little to nothing most of us can do about it. You exist in this system, you're a part of it. You're either ok with others doing violence on your behalf so you can have a bit of chocolate in your breakfast croissant, or you aren't.
I don't see a peaceful remedy to this problem. We can talk about theory, about "yeah just organize and vote" until we're blue in the face but the reality is that system is actively rigged against us. We can talk about organizing your workplace and demanding better conditions, but that system is actively rigged against us too, even if you're already in a union.
We are actively rocketing towards a very bleak future and every passing day without cataclysmic change only pushes it down the line. And every day we push it back, it increases in magnitude.
So frankly, if someone is going to commit violence on my behalf, I'd rather it be directed at the problem than directed at my peers in the working class, wherever they may be.
My problem is with people who exploit the labor of others for profit. No billionaire earns that last zero without causing harm
I'm mostly on board with you. But I'd like to cite "Notch" (of Minecraft) as an example of someone who earns the last zero without causing harm. Pure fucking luck? Sure. Should be part of a society that will redistribute his wealth? Definitely. Perpetuating violence for profit? I dunno what he's doing now, but he wasn't when he got that billion.
The thing is, you can’t participate in capitalism without either extreme ignorance or at least a little complacency towards that violence.
As a demsoc, my whole position is described by stopping the violence from within. There are parts of capitalism that are palatable, though it will inevitably end up in a horrible state if left to stagnate. But if I had to choose between universal healthcare and welfare for all and a violent revolution that fewer than 10% of people actually want, I think the former is a better option. And despite me having a lot of the same goals as the groups seeking that revolution, they still terrify me.
You exist in this system, you’re a part of it. You’re either ok with others doing violence on your behalf so you can have a bit of chocolate in your breakfast croissant, or you aren’t.
Please understand that this terrifies me. The black & white no-middle-ground thinking is the foundation of so many atrocities. That idea that you cannot improve capitalism, or that a "better capitalism" is still identical to "others doing violence on your behalf so you can have a bit of chocolate" is the kind of madness that leads to authoritarian regimes. I'm against capitalism in general. I'm also against a smallish number of people with guns replacing capitalism with something else.
I don’t see a peaceful remedy to this problem.
Can you acknowledge that a state that over 90% of humans would be happy with is still within "the problem" for you? If not, please understand that THIS is why most people incorrectly batch Communism with Fascism. If so, please understand why you having a problem is the problem and you need to learn to differentiate between the Bidens and the Trumps. Biden is "the other side". Trump is satan.
We can talk about theory, about “yeah just organize and vote” until we’re blue in the face but the reality is that system is actively rigged against us.
Let me be clear about this. I'm part of the same category batched as "progressives and leftists". WE represent about 9% of the population in my home country. That part is unfortunately Democracy working as designed. Not rigged. WE should represent a larger percent of the population, but unlike Billionaires and Church Leaders, we can't seem to find common ground between Far Left V1 and Far Left V2.
But you're right. With less than 6% of people in your country supporting your particular views, voting is not the answer. But, IMO, neither is violence. If 6% of the country manages a coup, I will not be happy no matter how much of their views I agree with. Because that's an authoritarian regime.
We are actively rocketing towards a very bleak future and every passing day without cataclysmic change only pushes it down the line. And every day we push it back, it increases in magnitude.
Everything you say here I agree with. But if we can't get the support for "very bleak future" under 90%, then you've failed even if you temporarily succeed.
So frankly, if someone is going to commit violence on my behalf, I’d rather it be directed at the problem than directed at my peers in the working class, wherever they may be.
My wife's best friend is Petite Bourgeoisie, she owns a breakfast diner near the local project. She makes less than her workers in all but the most perfect months. I have no problem with her. I have problem with anyone who will make her choose between surrendering her freedom not to answer to an ownership structure (even a communal ownership structure), or "going up against the wall". Ironically, it is the part of me most sympathetic to the goals of communism that support her attempted independence from private ownership. I have, on many occasions, been told she would be in line for death or disenfranchisement. Do you understand my reservations? I PREFER an imperfect capitalism if that is the only alternative. And you might not have meant it, but you came across as saying that's the only alternative, and by way of violence.
Whether or not notch directly hurt anyone himself. (He is now) The money he was paid was blood Money derived from persecuting destroying and monopolizing the market on Microsoft's part.
So are you or are you not advocating for the murder of Notch? If so, I will oppose you at all costs as I would any extremist. If not, then what exactly are you disagreeing with me about?
No. Definitely not as long as he will help to work to make a more just and amicable Society. However if he or others try to violently oppress or push everyone down. All bets are off. One of the things these wealthy people need to remember is that we far outnumber them. And their money only isolates and protects them as long as we are marginally content. Should we ever get focused enough to the point to come for them. They stand no chance. So it's in their interest to work with us. I don't care if they have a slightly better life than average. So long as people aren't homeless and Starving in the streets.
I have never had a problem with self-defense. My problem is how often some folks talk proactive violence against a fairly vague definition of "bourgeoisie", or merely "the rich". And (I'm sure you can understand why I'd have a problem) that some folks talk like I'm in the receiving-end category of proactive violence.
I know it's not popular here, but I hold Communists to the ACAB-rule. For me to consider respecting a member of ANY group where a substantial percent is advocating for violence against myself or those I care about, or proactive violence at all, I need to know that person strongly and openly opposes that behavior and is part of trying to fix it. If you do that, I'll happily have a beer with you.
I don't think Communists and Tankies are the same thing, but a lot of Tankies are pulling "no true scotsman" even here about advocating for violence against (for example) liberals.
If you just happen to be luckily a member of an ingroup. Chances are you will have minimal issue. But that doesn't mean people don't. Your personal experience is yours and yours alone. And not shared by everyone.
There is no nebulous definition of bourgeoisie. If you labor, you're proletariat. Even if you're sympathies mistakenly lay with the bourgeoisie. If you live off wealth, and use it to amass more wealth. Bourgeoisie. Owners of many, or large company's and middle management. Bourgeoisie. Landlords/slumlords bourgeoisie. Career politicians? Bourgeoisie. Stock traders etc? Bourgeoisie.
There is more than one type of communist. So your generalization is well, ...highly ignorant. However, when it comes to leninists. I strongly agree. Those are the ones you're referring to. Anarcho-communists have a hard enough time organizing together let alone finding the desire to go after bourgeoisie. They want to be mostly left alone. Authoritarians of any stripe are the problem. Not communists.
You frame it as killing someone for who they are (rich) while the aggressive communist frames it as what the rich have done (destroy countless lives for personal monetary gain)
Not saying that it's ok, I wouldn't condone murder in a public setting of course. Just saying :)
I'm not ok with the death penalty for serial killers and rapists, and I think the laws we have now (if they were enforced) cover for corruption.
I have a rule. No matter how shitty the rules, nobody should die for playing by them. Ex Post Facto protections are a hallmark of preventing justice from being another name for authoritarian persecution. Of all people, it tends to shock me that Communists struggle to see that when they are the first to back extreme versions of ACAB-attitudes.
I know rich people who are... just fucking rich and that's it. Lottery, good job. Smart little investment. Most rich people don't destroy lives directly for monetary gain. Is there an indirect effect between wealth distribution and suffering? SURE, but holding someone accountable by violence for something they indirectly effected when it was legal? I just can't see it no matter how they frame it.
It's like COVID opposition. When we didn't have laws against their bullshit (COVID spreader parties?) it is unjust to now go back and pass a law to punish there behavior merely because it caused hundreds of thousands of extra death.
From what I see, it's full of wannabe rebel communists, who claim to be communist because they like the idea of revolution. The type of people that think that wallstreetbets is communist because "they fight the system".
Marx and gramsci are turning in their grave reading some lemmy post
I'm sorry but the Marxist and communist discussions on here are an absolute far cry from wallstreetbets lmao, not to mention using WSB favorite word gets you banned in a lot of these communities
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Nah the one that starts with an R
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ROI?
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You’re correct in that I meant return on investment - profit - but it is indeed not their favorite word as I don’t wanna be banned, just being cheeky.
Investing man-hours into mechanization also has labour ROI.
Many are same level of nativity. Grown up kids pretending to be revolutionary to protest mum's political ideas
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Complicated issues are complicated. Neither Reddit, lemmy, Twitter (x?), nor any social media platform is particularly well suited towards discussing complex decisive topics.
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Exactly
A whole bunch of these self proclaimed "communists" are supporting trump/trumpism...started with unfunny memes and well, I think we can all guess where they're all going to end up.
The funniest part is arguing about current "forms" of communism and capitalism and not realizing that it's just the same shit from different assholes and a far cry from either.
Are you lying about the communists supporting Trump or are you just repeating lies about the communists supporting Trump?
Just look at the crap they post, no need for me to lie
wow that's so enlightened, tell us more
