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  • Not sure which post you're talking about, but in general, yeah. Any kind of excusing of transphobia is 100% not tolerated here. I'm not a mod of this particular community, but please use the report button if you see anything like this happening.

    • I did report it. The problem is many of these arguments come clothed in the fabric of politeness. Similar to how white nationalists have tried to persuade me by calling me "brother" and speaking kindly, it might not be immediately apparent to someone why these arguments are harmful. After all, the person is being "polite," and the person who responds appropriately often seems like the unhinged one.

      It's by design.

      • yaps loudly in agreement about how fucked it is that people pointing out a problem get blamed for being the real problem by privileged asshats!

        Avoiding "bad words" and "hostility" doesn't mean a person is good or nice. Sometimes hostility is justified or at the very least has a point.

      • I did report it. The problem is many of these arguments come clothed in the fabric of politeness.

        Yup. And Beehaw is already doing the thing I predicted they'd do back during the Reddit blackouts: They allow polite genocide endorsements but warn/suspend/ban people who tell those people to fuck themselves because we're not "being nice". Shocked Pikachu when Beehaw ends up being no different from shit-just-works.

  • The current climate of "discourse" in the US works against effective teaching. I do know what I'm talking about here; teaching emotionally charged subjects was my strength but it's nearly impossible to online these days.

    I have no idea how you get out of this dynamic when it's become so deeply embedded in how things are done, just that for every person who manages to learn something amidst the shouting, another is driven further away from what you wish to teach. But this is where we are and what we have to work with.

    This can be true along with the unfairness of putting the burden on the disadvantaged side. I don't know the answer. Perhaps there isn't one.

    • I've been in forums since the 90s, and if anything it seems to me like many people are more open to discourse now. I got called the f-slur so much back then. The reason it probably seemed better back then to non-LGBT+ people is that they were excluding and marginalizing us.

      And if we welcome people like those I refer to in my post, we will be once again excluding and marginalizing LGBT+ people by creating a hostile space.

      I don't think things have gotten worse. It's just that whenever we get the slightest step towards equity, bigots push back. The only solution I know is to make that impossible for them.

  • You say that

    People need to be educated, and you're not going to change their minds by becoming hostile.

    Is a bad take, but then your follow up explanation doesn't really go into detail about the sentiment behind this statement and reads completely off topic. Do you really think hostility is necessary to educate? Like when responding to an ignorant comment, are you yelling at them? As irrational as some phobics are, I agree you're not going to change their minds by flying off the handle and yelling at them or using hostile language. Not only do many people of all opinions respond poorly to that, the ones making bad faith arguments want you to get pissed and make you look irrational. Don't fucking let them.

    • your follow up explanation doesn’t really go into detail about the sentiment behind this statement and reads completely off topic

      Are you misinterpreting my post? These are not arguments said by me -- these are arguments that come from bad-faith actors who are polluting what are supposed to be welcoming forums by putting the onus on us to behave politely when they are coming into threads with their nonsensical gish gallop. Here you can read more about this. It's the "You got upset, I win" bullshit that infested reddit and is now infesting Lemmy.

      Like when responding to an ignorant comment, are you yelling at them?

      Sometimes, yes, and it is not my place to defend my right to exist, and now I'm yelling at you.

      you’re not going to change their minds by flying off the handle and yelling at them or using hostile language

      Again, changing their minds is not my place. In an inclusive forum, LGBT+ people don't have to defend our right to exist constantly. If someone wants to learn, there are places they can go that won't exhaust a bunch of innocent people trying to exist.

      the ones making bad faith arguments want you to get pissed and make you look irrational

      Yes, and this is why they need to be removed from this community. They don't belong in a space that is supposed to be validating and welcoming to all.

      Don’t fucking let them.

      Oh wow, haven't heard this one before a million times from bigots and their defenders. Thanks for the contribution, Dr. Phil. Now go fuck yourself. Reported.

    • "Never argue with stupid people they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" -Mark Twain

      Besides which, it's not kind to spew vitriol, nor is it productive. It's certainly understandable to be outraged. It makes sense. You certainly can't ignore such things, it's not right. Responding in hatred only feeds the conviction of the ignorant and diminishes the righteousness of your own stance.

      It's a lose-lose.

      I won't even start talking about who benefits from everyone fighting each other... Certainly not us!

    • Bad take. I don't want it to be up to me as a trans person to educate anyone anymore. And if they're bad faith ban them lmao.

      • Bad take. I don't want it to be up to me as a trans person to educate anyone anymore.

        No, this is a bad take. You're in the best possible position to educate people about your own thoughts, feelings, and what it is like being trans. Your voice can make changes that would help other trans people. If everyone shared this attitude, the only people educating others about trans would be non-trans people who have no idea what it's like to be trans.

        If they truly are in bad faith, you would still have to engage them beyond reading one question to know that for sure, and this side of the LGBTQA+ community has a really bad habit of immediately being triggered by pretty much any questions about trans topics, regardless of how they are presented or by whom.

  • Agreed with points all around, just wanted to add:

    1. “People need to be educated, and you’re not going to change their minds by becoming hostile.”

    It frankly isn't our job to teach bigots to not be bigots. That's on them to learn to be better people, and if they can't, then fuck 'em.

    Also, frankly, being over forty years old has taught me that not becoming hostile and trying to educated these fuckin cretins doesn't work either, because they don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves. They will only care about a political issue when it affects them directly, and even then, they'll only want solutions for themselves and still act like it shouldn't be a big deal for others.

    They are not acting in good faith, so why the fuck would we waste our time teaching people who want to erase us?

    1. “[Famous person] literally did the bare minimum to support gay people, so I doubt they’re transphobic.”

    The only person who can name someone as an ally is someone from the community that needs allies.

    If I am cisgender walk around calling myself an ally, even if I participate in allyship: I'm kind of an asshole.

    If, on the other hand, I walk around participating in allyship, but rather, describe myself as "aspiring to be an ally," then: Maybe, just maybe, I'll actually do enough good works for someone in the community to think I am an ally. You don't get fucking bonus points for being Cisgender and bare minimum not being a shitheel. Actually stand up for the trans community, or take a hike, we don't need performative allyship.

    I haven't seen a single megastar really stand up for the trans community.

    1. “They’re from a different time.”

    Maybe they should go live in a fucking cave, then, if they can't fucking hack it in the modern world. Fucking neanderthals.

    I mean Jesus tittyfucking Christ, The Second Sex was written in Nineteen Fucking Forty-Nine. How old does the concept of gender identity need to be for these jerks to fucking accept it? They need to crack open a fucking book once in a while. The idea that they're from a different time is a fucking joke when the concept itself is seventy-four fucking years old. (and very likely much older, just not articulated in Western literature)

  • I'm a non-binary person who used to be pretty transmedicalist, if not outright transphobic and especially enbyphobic. Part of what brought me around was a de-escalation in the anger around explaining trans issues. When I first became aware of issues around using pronouns and non-binary people in 2012-ish, there was a lot of fury and very little real explaining. Just people berating others over not asking everyone for their pronouns or not understanding things about trans people. I was too scared to ask questions because everyone seemed so ready to jump down others throats and it really soured me, to the point of hanging around hate sites. It wasn't the only thing that pushed me in that direction but it certainly didn't push me away from being hateful.

    A good part of what helped me come around understand was de-escalation of the anger and a genuine effort to explain things slowly and without judgement. After a while, sites started putting out longer articles about the nuances of trans and non-binary identities, and after I finally broke away from the hate sites, reading those helped me finally get it. I understand some of the anger. I get mad too. But I know from experience that yelling doesn't help convert anyone.

  • Even back in the 80s we didn't excuse bigotry, no matter the age or the history of the person. We maybe didn't feel as safe calling it out publicly back in the day, but it was certainly discussed. A bigot is a bigot, end of story. There was no excuse for it in 1983- when the ones "from a different time" were young!- and there's still no excuse for it forty years later.

    • I saw an after school special called "What If I'm Gay?" from the 80s that was surprisingly progressive and didn't lean on stereotypes or tropes. My elementary PE teacher was an LGBT+ activist, and we had at least one openly LGBT+ speaker at a school assembly who spoke about acceptance, and I grew up in a small conservative town.

      Even Nirvana wrote in the liner notes for one of their albums that sexists and homophobes shouldn't buy their records or come to their shows.

      I didn't know a lot of openly trans people back then, but that's because many people didn't feel safe coming out. Regardless, I can't imagine having responded with the brand of ignorance and hate we were actively pushing back against.

      With that being said, LGBTphobia was certainly commonplace back then, but as you said, there was no excuse. People knew better, but they participated in it anyway.

112 comments