[Lemmy] The response on Lemmy to the shooting yesterday has been a real test of character, and so many of y'all have failed
[Lemmy] The response on Lemmy to the shooting yesterday has been a real test of character, and so many of y'all have failed
Mod Note: I'm bending the "no politics' rule to highlight a disgusting trend I've been seeing on Lemmy lately. Due to the sheer volume of comments fitting that trend and the huge number downvotes given to anyone who speaks out against it, I'm convinced this opinion is truly unpopular in the Lemmy-verse. This is also topical and important enough to merit discussion or at least to provide a point of reflection. So while it touches on politics, that's merely the framing device of current events being used to highlight a larger problem.
As you're inevitably downvoting this, at least take a good, long look in the mirror while you do so.
The sheer number of people here praising the shooter, advocating for, glorifying, or just flat out calling for violence has been a real eye opener and litmus test for the kind of people I've surrounded myself with on this platform. Suffice it to say, a lot of you have failed that test spectacularly.
A rational, independent thinker should be able to condemn this kind of violence even when it's targeted towards their "enemies." Political violence has absolutely NO PLACE in a healthy society, and no one should be praising or advocating for it. No one. Ever. This is one thing that, regardless of the paradox of tolerance, should be universally condemned.
There are, apparently, a ton of extremists here that don't see themselves as such because they believe their extremism is justified and that they're on the right side of history. Ironically, which is what all extremists think.
This goes back further than just yesterdays's events. For example, it's been a common refrain since the Supreme Court presidential immunity decision that, paraphrased, "The current non-dictator president should do dictator things to stop the other dictator". Which is just another flavor of "Extremism is bad except when it's my flavor of extremism".
Don't give me that "it's just gallows humor", "I'm oppressed, and he deserved it", "if you had a time machine, wouldn't you go back to 1934...", "we haven't been a healthy society for X years...", or other excuses. This is a BFD with major implications and ramifications, and y'all Lemmings are treating like we just missed the exit ramp to Utopia and are trying to find a wide spot to make a U-turn.
It's certainly fine to have no sympathy for the guy (I sure as hell don't), but it's another thing entirely to be cheering on, promoting, and/or advocating for extremist stances like those being thrown out lately.
You say you want a better society? Then act like it!
Moments like this are the true test of one's character and intellectual honesty, and I'm beyond disappointed in so many of you.
I'm certainly not upset that someone tried to take out the guy that literally said he wanted to become a dictator if elected. I don't think that political assassination is the right move in most situations, this included. On the contrary, I think someone should put a bullet in Putin's head. So I ask where do we draw the line? Currently the system is corrupt and is shielding Trump from consequences. That leaves the people with few options. What is 2A for if not to defend the country from a tyranical dictator? To me, this is a "leopards ate your face" situation. Trump has been fucking around, and the people are bypassing the broken legal system so he can find out. I'm sad he lived.
Edit: To stir the pot a little more, I'm all for guns being illegal. If there were better gun policies in the USA, this wouldn't have been possible. So this is Republican policy in action.
Defense with violence from other, already-engaged violence is one thing. Accelerating towards new violence is another, and is not going to truly fix a problem.
--Comment from Carrolade@lemmy.world above
If Trump were in the morgue right this minute, it would truly solve many problems. I don't want someone to kill him to get there, rather an embolism, heart attack, or rabies would be ideal. If some unhinged individual pulls a trigger, I'm not condoning it, but I'm also not going to look a gift horse in the mouth.
Edit: There's also got to be perspective. If you're an immigrant, he has threatened your entire family and lively hood if reelected. While not explicitly a violent act to defend with violence, it's not far off.
I agree with you, however denouncing political violence doesn’t need to extend to fawning.
This is my favorite proposed response I’ve seen:
If I was a Dem asked what I think this would be my short statement:
History has shown us that political violence like this is a hallmark of authoritarian states.
That it turned against the man inciting it shows how slippery and dangerous our current moment is.
Come November we have a choice -- an America where a man like Trump, who believes lynching his political enemies is fine, sits in the white house while fires of political retribution burn across the nation; or an America where our fragile democracy rests in less unhinged hands, safe for the moment.
"Character" is just as much a social construct as gender is. What you call a "test of character" I call a "natural human reaction."
When you learned about all the evil Hitler did, did you scold the people who celebrated his death? What about Stalin? Pol Pot? Mao? The US government assassinated Bin Laden and the Iraqi people hanged Hussein- did you decry them not being tried for their crimes? Should people not be happy that Lee Harvey Oswald got what he gave out?
Plenty of historians have drawn parallels between what's happening in the US today and where Weimar Germany was in the 1920's. Obviously I'm not saying that Trump is on the same level as the other people I mentioned, but if a person truly sees the historical connections, do you blame them for trying to avert what comes next using more extreme methods?
The fact is, political violence has been ingrained into American myth since its inception. Every year of public school we're taught that the people who overthrew the government with violence were right to do so because they succeeded, while the people who tried to secede with violence were wrong to do so because they failed. Why would you expect any American to not think otherwise? People like Washington and John Brown are hailed as great American heroes for using violence.
On top of that, Donald Trump is a man that the legal system is bending over backwards to prevent him from facing any consequences whatsoever from crimes he's committed. The "process" isn't working- is it a shock that when the system is failing the people, the people will take matters into their hands? The voice of the people is systematically being silenced; people will therefore resort to whatever means they have to make themselves heard. This is a constant throughout all of human history.
And not just that, but Donald Trump is the head of a political party that shrugs its shoulders when hundreds of children are murdered in schools or churches or malls annually. Every time a school shooting happens, Republicans rush to decry Democrats for "politicizing" a tragedy to avoid any sort of gun control legislation from even being discussed. Should people not feel some sort of vindication at seeing the party that refuses to address gun violence in the US suffering from that refusal?
So, yeah. I think that someone being upset that a person tried to assassinate a political candidate is a rational response. But I also think it's not unreasonable to have other feelings about it too.
I don't think there's necessarily anything inherently wrong with believing that his death would solve whatever issue people hope it would. It's not obvious to me that this would be the guaranteed outcome, but I guess I can't blame anyone for thinking that.
What I do take issue with is endorsing this kind of behavior. I don't want to live in a world where we solve political debates by assassinating the opposition. That's not how civilized people behave. Do I mourn the death of Hitler or shun the people celebrating his death? Of course not. Would I have preferred for him to be caught alive, tried, and sentenced to prison for the rest of his life? Yes.
If Putin accidentally wandered into Finland tomorrow while picking blueberries in the forest and gets arrested, does he deserve to be hanged in the marketplace and made an example of? Yes. Is that what we should do? No. That's what they would do. That is exactly the moment we're supposed to take the moral high ground and show people on the other side that we have principles and we're better than that. This is the test so many people failed today. They act like the people they oppose.
The founding fathers did not attack the British. They declared their independence, and then were invaded. Defense and attack are different things.
It's true that the Confederacy was itself invaded after declaring its own independence, no question. But then what values were being defended? The right to own other humans as chattel? Not quite the same.
... praising the shooter, advocating for, glorifying, or just flat out calling for violence ...
There's a big difference between the above, and recognizing that the world would be a better place without Donald Trump in it.
The latter is not what I'm describing, though. That can also be clearly stated without venturing into the former.
Still worth making a note of.
Not much of a difference, that is very much Who will rid me of this turbulent priest territory.
Context is everything. When the King of England says it about his political opponent, that carries a whole lot more weight than when some rando on the internet says it.
This is why when Trump amplifies "Internet Rando" posts about having Liz Cheney go before a military tribunal (for example), the amplification by Trump is more chilling than the original rando post.
Political violence has absolutely no place in a healthy society
But we aren't in a healthy society. If anything, this shooting is proof of it. This isn't an excuse. This is a claim that your arguments will fall on deaf ears.
I'm not cheering this (I would go as far as saying that I hate what happened), but I don't think people who have/are doing so, are displaying abject character or intellectual dishonesty. I think they are misreading the current political context, and I think nothing good will come of this.
Trump has caused unknowable deaths from the policies put into place during his presidency, and with Project 2025 would (will?) cause even more.
Pacifism becomes extremism when it cares more about policing and shaming those who vent their frustration at the current state of things. "missed the exit ramp to utopia" is a hell of a way to convince people to listen to what you have to say with an open mind.
Political violence has been happening for years, and this is what gets us a mod post ? I would venture that I am just as disappointed in my fellow lemmings as you are, but frankly, this feels almost as tone-deaf and unhelpful as those calling for blood.
Now is the time for constructive advice. Bandying about "extremism" helps no cause but that of inaction.
You want a better society? Go outside and organize. Help people feel prepared for their future. Leave those calling for blood on an online forum to be picked up by the feds and law enforcement. Or talk to people like you care about them, not picking up after the mess they will make.
People are dying of hunger, of lack of shelter, of preventable diseases, of working 3 jobs without breaking even, and they just saw one of the rich fucks that spent 4 years making their lives worse dodge death and supercharge his followers. Now you expect them to calm down because someone online invokes "rational, independent thinkers", after preemptively accusing them of downvoting a post that they have yet to read.
Shooting Trump is not how we get through this. Making this post with this tone is not how we get through this, either. I don't have the answers beyond "find a better way to get your point across or you will just push away those you are trying to reach". Hopefully I have not, myself, fallen into the same trap with this comment.
The way I think about posts like this, as I tend to create them myself too, is that if it makes even one person stop for a moment, reflect on their behavior, and hopefully act differently in the future, then it was worth it. At the very least, I can't imagine it making things worse. It's also a kind of sanity-check for the minority of users who agree but don't want to voice their unpopular opinion.
I do admit, though, that if the tone of my writing is so off-putting that it bounces off people, then my time writing it has been wasted.
You're not wrong, but step one of problem solving is admitting there is a problem (in this case, extremism).
While the post is (intentionally) harsh, it's no less an accurate spotlight on the toxic attitudes being displayed by those who claim to oppose authoritarianism / fascism / whatever bad-ism but spout out opinions that amount to "but a little bit is okay when it's my side doing it"
All this heated rhetoric is adding more fuel to an already raging fire, and that bleeds out into the real world with real world consequences.
All I'm asking is for people to look in the mirror, take a good look, stop encouraging/cheering/advocating violence, and try even slightly to turn the heat down.
It's not all of Lemmy though - on Feddit.uk, nobody's even mentioned it. The Britons are just discussing the wide variety of meals you can make by combining chips, cheese, beans, gravy and curry sauce in different arrangements.
Fair enough.
The Britons are just discussing the wide variety of meals you can make by combining chips, cheese, beans, gravy and curry sauce in different arrangements
Got a link? lol. That sounds right up my alley.
Abdicating the lawful, peaceful transfer of power would be insanity.
Yes.. it would.. cough January 6
Yup.
Donald Trump has incited violence for the last 4 years, he gets grazed by a bullet or a shard of glass, people rejoice! Why? Because the psychopath who wants America to burn to the ground just got some of the violence HE caused. Karma.
Celebrating another's misfortune is one thing (not condoning that, but it's not what I'm talking about here). Sinking to his level of violent rhetoric is not what we claim to be. That's the issue.
I choose to read the post in Patrick Stewart's voice.
I love that. lol. Gonna try that myself (except for the y'all. my brain cannot produce that in Patrick Stewart's voice)
The sheer number of people here praising the shooter
Post links because I haven't seen one yet.
Go take a look at lemmy.world modlog. Most of those messages have been rightfully removed.
https://mbin.grits.dev/m/asklemmy@lemmy.world/t/235087
You might have to view it via web browser, it has been moderated away. Lots of people there saying oh we should give them aim training, they shouldn't have missed, they deserved it, etc etc etc. lots of very concerning things.
Some more examples, its not just the comments, its all the upvotes on incitements of violence. Remember most people here are lurkers.
[Please take target practice beforehand next time] (https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/11937963)
[> assassination is obscene
In this case I would call it "self defence".](https://lemmy.world/comment/11163700)
Well said.
This is how we genuinely defend liberty and equality, the values so many brave soldiers died on battlefields all over the world to protect. Far more effectively than wishing for yet another blood drenched battlefield, liable to get the same results as all those in centuries past.
Did the US Civil War end racism? Did WW2 end fascism? Did the assassinations of MLK Jr or Abraham Lincoln end the fight for civil rights? No. Because ideas cannot be destroyed, they can only be effectively fought with other, better ideas. Not blood and steel.
Defense with violence from other, already-engaged violence is one thing. Accelerating towards new violence is another, and is not going to truly fix a problem.
👏
I said something similar last week, but less concisely. Was downvoted to hell for it because it went against the lynch mob mentality.
Some of the responses to this post are truly encouraging in a "faith in humanity restored" kind of way. So thank you for being one of those.
Don't worry man, I've noticed an uptick in crap, but for the most part I've just seen a large uptick in trolls. They're coming out of the woodwork right now, they latch onto stuff like this to stir the pot.
You and I don't agree on everything, but we definitely agree on this. Just don't feed the trolls
It’s Eternal September for Lemmy these days. I’m part of that wave too. I noticed a lot of my takes get downvoted to oblivion!
You and I don't agree on everything, but we definitely agree on this.
Having seen you around, agreed, but in a good way. Like, the things I've seen us have differences of opinions on are all such that you could legitimately change my mind on some of them (and I would hope the reverse holds true). Those are the kinds of disagreements I like.
They're coming out of the woodwork right now, they latch onto stuff like this to stir the pot. ... Just don't feed the trolls
Also agreed and yep, have seen the same uptick.
Well since we all post here for the sole purpose to please you, I am sure I can speak on behalf of all of us when I say-
Nah, go ahead and say it.
I think i said it pretty clearly.
You think the content you see is bad? Check the modlogs. People really went over the top in some cases
Oh, I'm sure. Appreciate the work you all are putting in :)
I'm an admin. I see it all, even stuff that's been removed and the lurkers silently cheering that shit on (which is what utterly broke me and inspired this post).
I haven’t seen anybody praising the shooter. I have seen about bunch of gallows humor. Is that what you’re talking about?
Our forefathers went to war to free themselves from tyranny. This country was born through bloodshed. Time is a river, and we have been through these rapids time and time again; deference to authoritarian figures will result in authoritarianism.
Wake up. Stop capitulating. We only have a republic if we can keep it.
are you surprised though? The number of people I have heard from early childhood all the way to present who say things like "if I could go back in time I would kill hitler as a baby" or "I wouldnt feel bad about killing a pedophile" is so high I lost count when I was 6. A lot of them are people I'm certain couldn't handle the emotional aftermath of actually killing someone. Its so much easier if someone else does it for you without your involvement. Essentially this is exactly what I expected of people, especially social media users.
Sadly, no, I'm not surprised.
But that doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't do better.
I'm only downvoting this for the hypocrisy of "bending the rules". I didn't read the rest.
No disagreement here, especially since you quoted me at least two and a half times there.
The people celebrating this and wishing the shooter had succeeded don't seem to put much thought into the kind of world they're advocating for. Don't forget that you also have to live in that world, and it's extremely naive to think it won't eventually turn against you. If you think things are bad in the US, take a look at how it's going in countries where this is the standard operating procedure.
Lol, I did. I tried to reply to ask if you minded me quoting you, but the post where that convo happened was removed and I couldn't (also figured a DM might be creepy lol)
Do you want attribution?
Do you want attribution?
Only if this lands you a book deal or a sponsorship
This reads like the opinion of someone unharmed by the fascism coming.
What I will focus on though is Trump is a cult leader. Not an ordinary political figure. Your sentiment should extend to people working in our political processes in good faith. When they aren't, and they've already demonstrated willingness to harm others, they've broken the social contract and should no longer assume such benefits. Killing them is an extreme solution. But it's the solution tyrants tend to finally be taken down with.
Trump himself tried to get a mob to execute Congress and his own VP. In a just society he'd have already been hung for treason and sedition. Trump tore up the social contract on his own and should reap what he's sown.
Preach.
We have to have principles, which we hold even when inconvenient and distasteful. When we try to improve the world we are asking other people to give something up for principles, and we can't realistically do that if we don't demonstrate principles of our own.
Basic human rights, really basic rights, we should be able to agree on.
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Don't murder people, don't celebrate murder, don't encourage people to commit murder
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Being able to speak, and communicate your position, concerns, and wants without fear of silencing.
Bonus points:
- Golden rule, only do/force onto others what you would want done/forced onto you.
These are just the starting points, I hope we can find common ground here.
You annihilate yourself by strictly adhering to pacifism. The harsh reality is that, yes, you sometimes have to murder people to protect yourself and the values of an enlightened society, particularly one that condemns murder, because such structures are the most prone to be attacked by people that do not share your values, and such people will always exist. In fact, when defending a free society from the loss of said freedom, murder can be the most moral option there is.
However, I want to conclude this comment by saying that the assassination attempt on Trump may not (yet) be warranted, particularly because I do not believe that the Republicans have the actual will and political momentum to establish a dictatorship post-election. And it is particularly distressing that this incident caused the death of a wholly innocent bystander.
Edit: changed wording from "is the most moral option" to "can be the most moral option"
I tend to feel that the monopoly on violence should, for this very reason, remain with the state. Nothing good will come from vigilante justice becoming popular. Simply pulling out a gun and shooting anyone is such an extreme and unfair thing to do and nobody wants to live in a society like that, even if they think they do. Fixing the entire government and justice system is a whole different question then, but I don't think this approach is taking us any closer.
The problem is you invite every individual to decide when someone should die, so by condoning murder as political expression you REQUIRE authoritarian strong man politics.
My family has fought multiple wars, and I will fight you too, to stop you from murdering people because they are inconvenient for you.
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Well said, OP.
It's not.
Treating a fascist in good faith is exactly how they get into power. The whole post is conveniently ignoring Trump already started this mess trying to get Congress and his own VP killed to maintain power.
Louder for the people in the back, please
Boo hoo. The guy who made our lives measurably worse almost got what was coming to him.