Goodbye from a Linux community volunteer
Goodbye from a Linux community volunteer
Official statement regarding recent Greg' commit 6e90b675cf942e from Serge Semin
Hello Linux-kernel community,
I am sure you have already heard the news caused by the recent Greg' commit 6e90b675cf942e ("MAINTAINERS: Remove some entries due to various compliance requirements."). As you may have noticed the change concerned some of the Ru-related developers removal from the list of the official kernel maintainers, including me.
The community members rightly noted that the quite short commit log contained very vague terms with no explicit change justification. No matter how hard I tried to get more details about the reason, alas the senior maintainer I was discussing the matter with haven't given an explanation to what compliance requirements that was. I won't cite the exact emails text since it was a private messaging, but the key words are "sanctions", "sorry", "nothing I can do", "talk to your (company) lawyer"... I can't say for all the guys affected by the change, but my work for the community has been purely volunteer for more than a year now (and less than half of it had been payable before that). For that reason I have no any (company) lawyer to talk to, and honestly after the way the patch has been merged in I don't really want to now. Silently, behind everyone's back, bypassing the standard patch-review process, with no affected developers/subsystem notified - it's indeed the worse way to do what has been done. No gratitude, no credits to the developers for all these years of the devoted work for the community. No matter the reason of the situation but haven't we deserved more than that? Adding to the GREDITS file at least, no?..
I can't believe the kernel senior maintainers didn't consider that the patch wouldn't go unnoticed, and the situation might get out of control with unpredictable results for the community, if not straight away then in the middle or long term perspective. I am sure there have been plenty ways to solve the problem less harmfully, but they decided to take the easiest path. Alas what's done is done. A bifurcation point slightly initiated a year ago has just been fully implemented. The reason of the situation is obviously in the political ground which in this case surely shatters a basement the community has been built on in the first place. If so then God knows what might be next (who else might be sanctioned...), but the implemented move clearly sends a bad signal to the Linux community new comers, to the already working volunteers and hobbyists like me.
Thus even if it was still possible for me to send patches or perform some reviews, after what has been done my motivation to do that as a volunteer has simply vanished. (I might be doing a commercial upstreaming in future though). But before saying goodbye I'd like to express my gratitude to all the community members I have been lucky to work with during all these years.
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All the responses from the Russian devs appear to skirt around the issue, the massive elephant in the room.
If I were removed due to sanctions against my country because of their invasion of another country, I wouldn’t feel I had any right to complain.
If I were to complain, it would be about the actions of my country and the consequences due to that, rather than acting like it’s outrageous to be removed.
I understand making those complaints is complicated for a Russian, but giving backlash like this really does give the impression that they don’t give a shit about, or even support, the invasion.
Are we going to remove Israel maintainers from the list since IDF soldiers are using Palestinians as human shields?
Oh, no, because US is okay with that genocide?
It's really more about how clearly fucking hypocritical it is.
So you think they’re against the invasion of Ukraine, and would like to see Israel hit with sanctions as well?
Because that wasn’t the impression I was getting.
I think we can all agree that what Russia and Israel are doing is horrific. Israel should be sanctioned as well, rather than letting Russia off…
That's literally what I suggested elsewhere here: If you work for ANY company in ANY country that produces weapons for war for ANY government, that they shouldn't be allowed to contribute.
Because that at the very least would be consistent.
Wouldn’t that stop nearly every country from being able to contribute?
Sounds like a convoluted way of saying to just let the Russians off, veiled as some over the top “consistency” argument.
Maybe let’s do that tho, and just start with Russia 😆
Way to purposefully misread it.
The whole issue is that the Russians work for companies with sanctions against them.
So, treat all companies involved in war the same way, and you'll never run into this hypocritical issue again.
There's plenty of companies (like Valve) who don't directly produce weapons of war or have contracts with their governments for war-services who contribute to Linux that could still do so, and plenty of individuals who don't work for military and military adjacent companies to contribute.
Acting like removing people who work at companies that contribute to wars will mean no one can contribute is obviously a grossly exaggerated misinterpretation.
That’s not completely unreasonable tbh, but I still think the current sanctions are fair if not perfect.
I didn’t purposely misread, this part was just a bit unclear:
If you work for ANY company in ANY country that produces weapons for war
Looking at what you quoted, that's fair and can see how you misread it as such. I am sorry I said that it was purposeful.
But the US is never going to sanction itself.
Funnily enough, the steam deck has been used during the conflict to control remote weapons. So they could be implicated in this if you go far enough
You could use a knife to kill someone as well... hell, an umbrella as well.
Google or Microsoft employees wouldn't be able to contribute, even if they're not working with any weapons manufacturer during their entire career there.
The idea is great in theory but isn't in feasible in rl.
This is the real world and you can think it ducks and it does but when your the 20000 pound gorilla in the room and there is nobody anywhere near your size you can do whatever the he’ll you want. And the US is that Gorilla. The whole world uses their tech in someway and their economy is by far the largest in the world. US is even looking at TSMC and selling chips to China cause the equipment TSMC uses to make chips is made by American companies.
There are no sanctions against these individuals. More importantly who gives a shit about what the US is whining about today or tomorrow, foss software is more important than whatever petty dispute the US egged on this time.
Most FOSS contributions are probably done by American companies. I don’t think people realize how many kernel developers are paid by someone to go it.
Nope, a decent amount are Chinese. Or European. American companies of course do fund foss so they don't have to develop much themselves, but it's certainly not most.
Again they have forgotten to remember the existence of people living outside the western bloc
Russia invaded a sovereign nation...but that's a petty dispute...are you sure you're on the right instance? Sounds like you need to recreate your account here on ml...
Yes, it's a petty dispute. The US has done the same every 3-6 years for the last 200. It's a common occurrence for empires to do whatever they want. It has nothing to do with random citizens contributing to volunteer projects based in entirely disconnected countries.
The USA isn't in this discussion right now. Russia invaded Ukraine and is trying to kill Ukrainians to take over their country. Iraq and Afghanistan wasn't a petty dispute either. You tankies are shitty people.
I don't give a shit about the Russian state. I'm not a tankie, I don't care about random petty disputes between empires and whoever pissed them off. Let the unrelated people collaborate on the things that represent the end of such empires in peace.
Sure go work somewhere else. Since it’s just the sanctioned companies.
Nope, it's not.
A full scale war on a sovereign nation is not a random petty dispute...the fuck is wrong with you?
It is quite a beefy and roided dispute, imo.
My issue with the dispute is that it has jack shit to do with Linux, Foss or the open source community and the consequences felt aren't against the people persecuting.
It's a missed shot. The Russian fuckarchy doesn't care if they get to contribute to Linux, or if they ever get to again, if they even know or care to notice in the first place.
The entire Linux community in Russia gets to suffer so a disapproving man in the Netherlands can wave his finger disapprovingly.
Is it worth it? Worth what? No one gets anything.
It's a security risk is how it's being looked at as well.
If you want to rely in the logic that invading sovereign nations justifies this, you will have to discuss the US, the major instigator of war.
Sounds like you are just upset that your complete lack of consistency has been pointed out.
No this has nothing to do with the USA right now. It's a strawman to whip out the "but the USA" card. Russia has sanctions, they invaded a sovereign nation, and are willfully targeting civilians. They're fully against the west at this point, allowing them continued access to help build tools the west uses, is not only against the current sanctions, it's also a dumb security risk as well.
No this has nothing to do with the USA right now.
Here's you making excuses for removing all the Russians from the contributor list: "Russia invaded a sovereign nation...but that's a petty dispute...are you sure you're on the right instance? Sounds like you need to recreate your account here on ml..."
Your logic, if you can call it that, is that if the country you're from invades a sovereign nation, it makes sense to get kicked off the list. Guess which country invades sovereign nations every 3-6 years.
To make another point, of course the US is relevant, its government is the one making this exact thing happen.
No more excuses, champ. Gotta look reality straight in the face.
It's a strawman to whip out the "but the USA" card.
lol no it isn't.
Russia has sanctions
Yes we all know this.
they invaded a sovereign nation
The US has invaded at least 4 sovereign nations in the last 21 years. It has bombed far more in that time, including couping Libya, turning it from the highest HDI country into a failed state with open air slave markets.
and are willfully targeting civilians
The RF has been comparatively less harsh on civilians. Look at what the US, NATO, and Israel do to civilians. They bomb residential buildings, pharmaceutical factories, hospitals, schools, buses, civilian infrastructure. Millions died in Iraq, about half children, in the 90s due to the US systematically destroying civilian infrastructure and then coordinsting tight sanctions.
And do you know what preceded the RF invasion? Ukraine ramping up its civilian shelling campaign in Donbas.
They're fully against the west at this point
Given what the West does with its power that is a smart position to take.
allowing them continued access to help build tools the west uses,
Yes and? You're just admitting that this is a chauvinist political move headed by the United States.
is not only against the current sanctions, it's also a dumb security risk as well.
It's not a security risk at all, the Linux team has tight review procedures and all of these people have been making contributions as maintainers. There were zero concerns raised about their code.
PS the US is not entitled to the world and every international project.
Here's you making excuses for removing all the Russians from the contributor list: "Russia invaded a sovereign nation...but that's a petty dispute...are you sure you're on the right instance? Sounds like you need to recreate your account here on ml..."
Where is that a excuse? I was pointing out that it's not a petty dispute, russia is trying to wipe out Ukraine....the fuck.
Your logic, if you can call it that, is that if the country you're from invades a sovereign nation, it makes sense to get kicked off the list. Guess which country invades sovereign nations every 3-6 years.
Ooo oo, I know this one....is it....whataboutism again for $400 alex?
To make another point, of course the US is relevant, its government is the one making this exact thing happen.
Yea...no it's not, russia is doing that on their own.
No more excuses, champ. Gotta look reality straight in the face.
Ok. Reality, russia is a fucked up authoritarian state that willfully sends it's people to rape, murder and commit war crimes, like it got its war plans from the viking era. How's that for some reality. Champ.
lol no it isn't.
Yea...yea it is.
Yes we all know this.
Sweet....are we getting somewhere...
The US has invaded at least 4 sovereign nations in the last 21 years. It has bombed far more in that time, including couping Libya, turning it from the highest HDI country into a failed state with open air slave markets.
Ahhh nope apparently not....still humping about the USA.
The RF has been comparatively less harsh on civilians. Look at what the US, NATO, and Israel do to civilians. They bomb residential buildings, pharmaceutical factories, hospitals, schools, buses, civilian infrastructure. Millions died in Iraq, about half children, in the 90s due to the US systematically destroying civilian infrastructure and then coordinsting tight sanctions.
Hahahhaha holy fuck...o wait you're a tankie...
And do you know what preceded the RF invasion? Ukraine ramping up its civilian shelling campaign in Donbas.
And a russian apologist....man this is just hilarious...you really are following the .ml tankie guidelines.
Given what the West does with its power that is a smart position to take.
Lol for all the west's faults, we're still not even half as murderous as the authoritarian dictatorships you love.
Yes and? You're just admitting that this is a chauvinist political move headed by the United States.
Yea no...
It's not a security risk at all, the Linux team has tight review procedures and all of these people have been making contributions as maintainers. There were zero concerns raised about their code.
Because it's easier to just use sanctions as the reason. The idea that a authoritarian state wouldn't force their devs to create backdoors for their state is hilariously naive, but you won't see it that way because you're a brainwashed tankie.
PS the US is not entitled to the world and every international project.
Yea no shit? Who said they are?
Where is that a excuse? I was pointing out that it's not a petty dispute, russia is trying to wipe out Ukraine....the fuck.
You just repeated the excuse. Right there, lol. And Russia has caused far less damage to Ukraine and its people than the US has to its targets. You are simply inconsistent and don't believe your own logic. Your true motivations are elsewhere.
Ooo oo, I know this one....is it....whataboutism again for $400 alex?
Oh, am I not allowed to point out your inconsistency because you have a term for doing that?
Yea...no it's not, russia is doing that on their own.
This post is about a thread where the people who removed Russians from the list did so under pressure by the US federal government are: their sanctions policies. It is literally exactly what I said and not at all what you said.
Please do your best to speak the truth.
Ok. Reality, russia is a fucked up authoritarian state that willfully sends it's people to rape, murder and commit war crimes, like it got its war plans from the viking era. How's that for some reality. Champ.
It's you distracting yourself through repetition because you cannot honestly respond to my points. So it is the opposite of facing reality, it is evasiveness.
Yea...yea it is.
Nope
Sweet....are we getting somewhere...
No it is just trivially the case.
Ahhh nope apparently not....still humping about the USA.
Because they did the thing that you agree deserves kicking out their citizens from the maintainer list. And they did it more.
Hahahhaha holy fuck...o wait you're a tankie...
Are you laughing at the mass civilian bombings or the starvation of children?
And a russian apologist....man this is just hilarious...you really are following the .ml tankie guidelines.
It seems you are afraid of basic facts that contradict your beliefs.
Lol for all the west's faults, we're still not even half as murderous as the authoritarian dictatorships you love.
The West's civilian death count is orders of magnitude higher than the RF invading UA.
Yea no...
You did, accidentally.
Because it's easier to just use sanctions as the reason. The idea that a authoritarian state wouldn't force their devs to create backdoors for their state is hilariously naive, but you won't see it that way because you're a brainwashed tankie.
Ah yes, the thing you just made up that hasn't happened and calls every developer in the country "their devs" is surely more correct than decades of code review practices and individual track records.
Re: brainwashing, you will notice that I am not the one running away from inconvenient facts at every turn. I am not afraid of such things, but they are clearly a threat to your way of thinking.
Yea no shit? Who said they are?
I quoted what I was responding to and that sentiment permeates it.
Treating all members of a nation as that nation is dangerous and stupid. According to that standard you're a racist, sexist, genocidal fascist who just kills anyone that doesn't let you exploit them, assuming you're American.
Native, but yeah sure, and when we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, I agree with you, but Iraq and Afghanistan didn't have a bunch of devs that worked on an OS that the world uses. It's a security issue more than anything.
It's really not, a smaller project? Maybe. A project with tens of thousands of eyes on it at all times? Not so much.
You're saying it like they have a choice.
Besides, stuff like this should not be constrained by the boundaries of nationalities.