Algerian Imane Khelif wins boxing gold medal after her gender was wrongly questioned
Khelif and another boxer, featherweight Lin Yu-Ting of Chinese Taipei, have been fighting under a cloud in France after the Algerian’s opening victory over Angela Carini, who quit after 46 seconds.
I like to think that I'm a better critical thinker than most, but I fell for the initial news story about her being trans or intersex and the fight being unfair. Then I saw the pictures of her over the years and as a kid, and I dug deeper into what actually happened and I honestly feel dirty. I've since been unsubbing to a lot YouTubers.
This is called growth. Good on you.
I have noticed that YouTube by default pushes a lot of right wing-esque stuff. My YouTube recommendations are fucked when I am not logged in, so much misinformation and clickbait all over the place. So I can see why it’s easy to fall for misinformation.
They've also started using a lot of channel names which are totally unrelated to politics. No huge surprise of course that it's the right wing doing stuff like this...
Good for you. We all have biases, it's best to be aware of it and challenge it from time to time.
Happy you did!
Also, afaik, there are guidelines for trans athletes in most major sports competitions, in terms of testosterone levels etc., to ensure fair play, so this wouldn't matter anyway.
And also, Algeria is officially a Sunni Islam country where gender transition is outlawed.
Check out the podcast "Tested". It's three episodes and goes into the history of testing female athletes to make sure they are "female enough" to compete.
terms of testosterone levels etc.
So why is it if a man has elevated testosterone levels it's allowed for him to have that advantage, but if a woman has elevated testosterone levels that's not?
If we're interested in fair play shouldn't all competitors be tested and those with less testosterone be given more so that they are on an even playing field?
Another misconception people have is that trans women are inherently stronger than cis women, which isn't true. I know from anecdotal evidence, that it is extremely difficult for me to open jars now that I've been on estrogen and t blockers for over a year. My t is actually under the normal range for cis women, and usually I have to get my cis sister to open jars because she's stronger than me now.
Also newer studies have shown trans women don't actually have the competitive advantage conservatives say they have.
https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/olympic-trans-women-ioc-study-rcna148437
It’s a great case of how tempting doubt is, and how people will automatically believe that accusations wouldn’t be made if something were not happening, so we have a 55% starting bias to believe “guilty.”
In college I was once the object of a salacious rumor that was 100% fabricated by someone and spread throughout my circles in school. By the time I heard about it, friends-of-friends and the entire faculty in my department had as well. Closer friends said things like “I never bothered to ask you about it because I figured it wasn’t true. And if it was true I didn’t care. Is it true?”
It was very frustrating how ready everyone was to believe it. People not very close to me ALL believed it. To this day I bet some people I know doubt whether I have just been lying this whole time to defend myself. But I know what I did and didn’t do, and I learned that people will absolutely get up one day and decide to manufacture something out of thin air and then spend energy spreading it around as if true.
I no longer think “well something must have happened if there’s this much hubbub about it…”
That's what separates is from them...the ability to digest comflicting information and change our opinion.
I went through the same mental shenanigans over the last two weeks.
Fuck every person who engaged in this shit. Lie after lie
Starting with that shitty Italian boxer who was a giant coward. She should be banned from boxing in the Olympics since this is a habit of hers. Basic decency and sportsmanship should be required.
Surrendering is part of the rules, why are you blowing on hate, exactly?
Allez Imane!
(EDIT: Just wanted to add I have donated 10 dollars for each current downvote (7) to women's rights charities in Algeria. Thanks for supporting Algerian women's rights!) (EDIT 2: Fuck it, I added another 10 for the late downvote. Thanks for supporting Algerian women's rights!)
That's not fair, I want to downvote you now.
Too bad, you'll have to donate in your own name. ;)
When I watched the video, I was shocked this even was a thing that happened.
I heard about the controversy for a while, heard some people say when they saw the fight they "understood why there was questioning", and heard something about a punch. As an avid MMA fan, I expected a scary knockout, like those where you hold your breath until you see the person start moving again.
Imagine my surprise when I finally saw the video, and watched an Olympic boxing fight for the first time. I see of them wearing headgear, one of them gets hit with a few good punches, gets to pause to adjust headgear, gets hit a few more good punches and calls off the fight without her knees ever even buckling or getting stunned, and doesn't even have a mark on her face. Perhaps the neatest, least harmful fight I've ever seen.
To be clear, I don't hold it against her for realizing she probably won't be winning and quitting before taking unnecessary damage, I'm just shocked anyone would think Imane is trans or a man based on that fight. Imagine if those people ever saw Amanda Nunes, or Dakota Ditcheva, or Zhang Weili. But I'd guess most of those people never actual watch women compete in any sports unless there is a controversy like this one, at which point they become experts.
I'm just shocked anyone would think Imane is trans or a man based on that fight.
Fan fact: there has never been a single case of a man trying to compete in women's sports by claiming to be a woman.
I also love MMA and shared the same sentiment. I recall seeing this gallery of Joanna Jedrzeczyk's opponents before and after.
Your opponent doesn't need to be a man to break your face. Sometimes you're just outmatched.
Love Zhang Weili
If I'm understanding correctly the argument against her competing hinges upon a genetic test that the article provides no information for.
The evidence that she's a woman seems overwhelming. But the article doesn't provide the necessary information for an reader to understand and defeat the objection. We're not to reason for ourselves. Instead, we're to rely on ad hominem: The objection itself doesn't matter because it came from Russia. The article also ignores fallacy fallacy: There's also a very small possibility that Russia has reached the "good" conclusion for entirely "bad" reasons.
I know three things:
Afaik the IOC did all the standard testing on her and didn't find any issues (no doping, normal testosterone levels, etc). Idk if they did a genetic sex test - I'd imagine that isn't standard. Is that correct? Regardless of the Russian-run boxing federation's intentions, I'd still trust the IOC's findings over theirs.
Plus, even if she was XXY or something, does that actually have any impact on athletic performance? I'd imagine not
Edi: yep. Looks like it is widely believed that having a y chromosome is unfair, but the science doesn't necessarily back that up.
"improved understanding about genetic factors that lead to selection in sport should offer reassurance that female athletes with hyperandrogenism do not possess any physical attribute relevant to athletic performance that is neither attainable, nor present in other women."
The fact that trans athletes aren't all at the top of their leagues is proof that a y chromosome isn't unfair.
The gradient caused by sexual dimorphism is smaller than the gradient caused by intense, advanced training in all but the most pure strength based competitions like powerlifting.
There is no info, because it was just Russian misinformation from a former boxing org. boss. She was disqualified after beating a Russian. There is nothing more to this story, just the “West” again show its weakness and vulnerability for Russian news manipulation.
The austrian commentator (who was working for an austrian boxing committee before) on her semifinals fight said about that boxing org: "i've has seen quite a lot in my time, but they were the most corrupt org i ever saw" (he said "korrupter haufen", which is derogatory for a corrupt group of people)
The article is pretty well done and shows exactly why this discussion is moot. There's simply no merit to the accusation, plain and simple.
If an accusation comes from Russia and only from Russia, it's part of their misinformation warfare. That's not ad-hominem, that's paying some fucking attention.
Exactly. So sick of reading about this non-news. There is nothing here, were just chewing on Russian propaganda and arguing with each other (as intended).
It just bugs me the wording "wrongly questioned" - it's never wrong to question, you just have to be prepared to accept answers.
Not true, 'just asking questions' is a common media manipulation tactic.
For example, Why hasn't Ted Cruz commented on the fact that many people believe he is the Zodiac Killer? It seems pretty odd to me that despite the public outcry, he has made no public statement as to this accusation. Why are you looking at me like that? I'm just asking questions...
She basically told the transphobic bigots to fuck themselves.
Transphobia hurts literally everyone, not just transgender people. Unfortunately this statement hits a little too close to home.
I feel so sorry for this person. Dragged into the spotlight of the world where everyone's got a say about their gender, completely forgetting that they're human first.
The "for" and "against" using her are sociopathic. Nothing feels more alienating that strangers sending positive and negative things to you, like they know you.
Nothing feels more alienating that strangers sending positive and negative things to you, like they know you.
I feel like you are creating a pretty strong false equivalence here. A bunch of people said nasty awful things about her that were untrue, attempting to interfere with her ability to remain in the Olympics, and potentially impacting her career. But somehow the folks sending positive messages her way are just as bad?
Transphobia and misogyny hurt all of us, not just the targets of the bigotry. I hope more people understand that now.
Cue the Cool J.
We have regulations for just about anything but not gender in Olympics?
Olympic committee should put forward specific classification rules for woman and man in a binary sporting event.
It's a Olympic committee problem not an athlete problem. Don't let them sweep this issue under the rug.
Except even if they had regulations it would not have changed anything since she is a ciswoman
Except she was born a woman, raised as a girl and is a woman according to her passport from a country where being trans is illegal. So your argument is moot.
We already have regulations about gender in the Olympics. They're discriminatory against transgender and intersex athletes, and disproportionately affect female athletes of color.
What issue is that exactly?
Really living up to your name.
Injecting testosterone is considered doping. So whatever their gender is, it's not allowed. This makes trans people by default not eligible, regardless of what gender they're playing as.
Have a look at this list: https://www.antidopingdatabase.com/facts/prohibited-list
My personal opinion is that trans people should just get their own part of the Olympics. Otherwise there is absolutely no way to keep it fair.
Make it 2 classes, open and restricted.
Clear rules on who is allowed in the restricted class.
Edit People down voting, do you not want a restricted class?
wrongly questioned
Were the allegations actually disproven? What I've read is that the IOC chose not to investigate.
Yes. She's female and was born female.
It's illegal to be transgender in Algeria, and the only complaint came from a Russian boxing body with a history of making suspect claims in the past.
Where are you getting this info? It was an Italian boxer named Angela Carini that started these allegations after 1 punch: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/08/02/sport/who-is-imane-khelif-olympic-boxer-intl
Carini apologized Friday for her treatment of Khelif. “I’m sorry for my opponent,” she told Italian outlet La Gazzetta dello Sport. “If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision.”
"It wasn’t something I intended to do,” Carini said. “Actually, I want to apologize to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke,” she said.
Her complaint was then taken up by transphobic organizations around the world, including Russian ones: https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/40797618/algeria-imane-khelif-wins-olympic-gold-amid-gender-dispute
There is not really a need to. The allegation comes from the IBA which is unrecognized by the Olympics and is a Russian propaganda organization. A Russian boxer lost to her and an official who is now fired for corruption disqualified her. Her birth certificate and passport say female and her testosterone is within the range for women. You can't just give extra screening to women you don't find attractive.
1, trans women are actually at a competitive disadvantage since hormone blockers also nullify the low levels of Testosterone that women produce naturally.
2, of all the fucking countries to suspect of "cheating" by fielding a trans woman, ALGERIA‽
What I'm going to say has nothing to do with the Algerian boxer, she was born a woman and if we started banning athletes from the Olympics whose rare genetics gave them an advantage, there'd be no reason to watch.
trans women are actually at a competitive disadvantage since hormone blockers also nullify the low levels of Testosterone that women produce naturally.
That is objectively false for combat sports. Blockers do not reverse the years of effects that testosterone has on their bodies development, such as skeletal structure and bone density.
I don't understand this insistence on denying reality for the very niche topic of trans women competing in combat sports, it is dangerous.
If you don't believe me, go listen to the interviews of female MMA fighters who Fallon Fox destroyed, and I'm talking like fractured skulls.
I know nothing of this boxer, but a Trans boxer would have several advantages outside of hormone levels. Physically, males are much better suited for boxing than females. They have larger hearts, lungs, longer arms, bigger hands, and hips more in line to directly send power from punching and keep in balance. Muscle and mass aside, men are better suited at punching, and those advantages don't go away with hormone blockers.
As to hormone therapy, do you think a professional m2f Trans athlete is going to be taking enough blockers to be towards the lower end of female testosterone, or taking just enough to be in the high end? This is a completely separate argument from the first point I've made, but im just curious as to why you would assume it nullifies all the testosterone. You have to have some in order to live. Your bones will go to shit, your heart won't work right, and you won't be able to make enough blood cells. Along with muscle loss, fatigue, and other issues. Hormone therapy will not take you down to 0 testosterone.
The article says the IOC honored what was on her passport. I don't think there was any valid concern raised, it was just the Russian body doing Russian things.
Women do not have to prove that they're women. The IBA didn't even say what test they gave her who administered it and who analyzed it. All they said was it wasn't for testosterone.
ssshh, woke facism is a young flower. dont tell the kids to reflect on things. womens boxing has become obsolete by this decision and the opposite of what these idiots that downvoted you happend. ofcourse she won. that is why so many women do want to box her. but those women dont matter as long as the dumb kids can get a kick out of pretending to fight the good fight.
